Congestion charges and low emission zones

[Ozyhibby]

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They are trying to copy the car free centre Ghent brought in.
https://www.simagazin.com/en/si-urba...car-free-city/

After ghent created car free centre and no through traffic car use in the city went from 55% to 27%
Bike traffic went from 22% to 35%
Public transport from 20% to 31%, they used the extra money from public transport to create more routes and decrease price
Pedestrians in the centre grew 5%
Air pollution dropped 25%

Biggest positive was businesses flourished in the centre. Bankruptcies down 20% in food and drink industry and 7% more new businesses in the centre. I think people must want to be in the city centre more when it's focused on people and not cars

There are a few working examples in Europe where this works and improves cities. I’m sure they have the same opposition at first as we have as well. None of them will switch back though.
Business in Leith will be starting to see the benefits of the move away from cars in Leith walk which is why we are hearing complaints about parking so much. And the more we move away from cars in the city centre, the quicker the trams and buses will be able to get through it, making getting through Edinburgh better for everyone.


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[Stairway 2 7]

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There are a few working examples in Europe where this works and improves cities. I’m sure they have the same opposition at first as we have as well. None of them will switch back though.
Business in Leith will be starting to see the benefits of the move away from cars in Leith walk which is why we are hearing complaints about parking so much. And the more we move away from cars in the city centre, the quicker the trams and buses will be able to get through it, making getting through Edinburgh better for everyone.


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An article I read says there was riots at the townhall in Ghent before it was implemented. 4 years later 74% of this polled wanted it extended further (12% abstained)

[SteveHFC]

Cowgate apparently being closed to traffic for a trial period and possibly permanent if it goes well.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...-fife-68170323

[grunt]

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Cowgate apparently being closed to traffic for a trial period and possibly permanent if it goes well.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...-fife-68170323

Personally and selfishly I'm against this, Cowgate is my main route through town. It means East to West traffic will need to either go Queen Street - single lane for the York Place section, six sets of traffic lights - or the Meadows, which ends up at the complete traffic disaster which is Tollcross.

[Berwickhibby]

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Cowgate apparently being closed to traffic for a trial period and possibly permanent if it goes well.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...-fife-68170323

The Caves, Rowantree and Apex will lose a lot of wedding business if the Cowgate closes….considering that’s the main income for the unusual event’s company which also includes Marilyn’s Wynd on Blair Street

[Just Alf]

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Personally and selfishly I'm against this, Cowgate is my main route through town. It means East to West traffic will need to either go Queen Street - single lane for the York Place section, six sets of traffic lights - or the Meadows, which ends up at the complete traffic disaster which is Tollcross.

I'm the same.... through Grassmarket, up onto royal Mile and down through cowgate eventually hitting top of Easter Road.... both Grassmarket and Cowgate are being closed!

Even my bus (35) will be impacted

[Stairway 2 7]

There is still access for deliveries just no through traffic for cars. Cars will have to go round or better get public transport which will still be able to pass through but now quicker.

As for pubs and venues in Ghent there was a 20% increase in new businesses in the hotel and restaurant industry with 7% fewer bankruptcies. People want to spend time uptown when it's not filled with cars it seems

[grunt]

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There is still access for deliveries just no through traffic for cars. Cars will have to go round or better get public transport which will still be able to pass through but now quicker.

Which buses go along the Cowgate? Answer: No buses go along the Cowgate. Me driving through Cowgate was holding up precisely no buses.

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As for pubs and venues in Ghent there was a 20% increase in new businesses in the hotel and restaurant industry with 7% fewer bankruptcies. People want to spend time uptown when it's not filled with cars it seems

I'm not talking about travel to the pubs and clubs in the Cowgate. I'm talking about the Cowgate being a major road connecting East of Edinburgh to the West side.

[Stairway 2 7]

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Which buses go along the Cowgate? Answer: No buses go along the Cowgate. Me driving through Cowgate was holding up precisely no buses.

I'm not talking about travel to the pubs and clubs in the Cowgate. I'm talking about the Cowgate being a major road connecting East of Edinburgh to the West side.

You don't teleport into the cowgate though so slow down tlb7s traffic heading to town. The point is to stop traffic heading towards town. They also say decreasing cars will enable them to add routes and capacity.

You weren't talking about businesses in the area but they are effected by cars. People like to go where there are no cars in cities, trade improves without them.

The fact is we need cars of the road and this is a way with good benefits. We don't want it to be easy for cars we want people cycling and using public transport. We can't sit and watch the world's temperatures increase and say but I prefer my convenience

[SteveHFC]

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You don't teleport into the cowgate though so slow down tlb7s traffic heading to town. The point is to stop traffic heading towards town. They also say decreasing cars will enable them to add routes and capacity.

You weren't talking about businesses in the area but they are effected by cars. People like to go where there are no cars in cities, trade improves without them.

The fact is we need cars of the road and this is a way with good benefits. We don't want it to be easy for cars we want people cycling and using public transport. We can't sit and watch the world's temperatures increase and say but I prefer my convenience

I know plenty of people who can’t cycle due to health or disability reasons. I rely on buses but they need to improve the transport system outside of Edinburgh to make this work.

[Stairway 2 7]

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I know plenty of people who can’t cycle due to health or disability reasons. I rely on buses but they need to improve the transport system out of Edinburgh to make this work.

If they are disabled they can still park up town. For those without blue badges park and rides will get you up town. This is only a problem for going through the town centre you can still travel round but it might take 10 minutes more

[Hibs4185]

No danger I’m taking my classic car into the city centre, it breaks down too often! I’d cause carnage

[superfurryhibby]

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You don't teleport into the cowgate though so slow down tlb7s traffic heading to town. The point is to stop traffic heading towards town. They also say decreasing cars will enable them to add routes and capacity.

You weren't talking about businesses in the area but they are effected by cars. People like to go where there are no cars in cities, trade improves without them.

The fact is we need cars of the road and this is a way with good benefits. We don't want it to be easy for cars we want people cycling and using public transport. We can't sit and watch the world's temperatures increase and say but I prefer my convenience

You could also say that people who live and work in the city need not be as inconvenienced by unnecessary road closures. Edinburgh isn't Disneyland and whilst tourism is a huge part of our economy, this can't always take precedence at all times. There's a huge challenge in the city around the impact of tourism, gentrification and questions around when the city centre reaches saturation point.

We all want a cleaner , greener city, but closing main arterial roads in central Edinburgh isn't always the answer.

[Stairway 2 7]

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You could also say that people who live and work in the city need not be as inconvenienced by unnecessary road closures. Edinburgh isn't Disneyland and whilst tourism is a huge part of our economy, this can't always take precedence at all times. There's a huge challenge in the city around the impact of tourism, gentrification and questions around when the city centre reaches saturation point.

We all want a cleaner , greener city, but closing main arterial roads in central Edinburgh isn't always the answer.

It is if if we are to reduce driving by 20% by 2030, driving makes up 25% of our co2. We need to make it as difficult as possible for drivers. The planet is on a knife edge and people don't want to inconvenience themselves.

I don't think this is about gentrification as 40% of the lowest 20% earners don't have cars compared to 9% of the top 20%. Quicker more plentiful buses and trams will disproportionately help the working class.

No one is stopping public transport going in and through the city, use a park and ride or walk for a bit if you can. There will be more bus services due to this yes it's an inconvenience but we have no choice

[superfurryhibby]

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It is if if we are to reduce driving by 20% by 2030, driving makes up 25% of our co2. We need to make it as difficult as possible for drivers. The planet is on a knife edge and people don't want to inconvenience themselves.

I don't think this is about gentrification as 40% of the lowest 20% earners don't have cars compared to 9% of the top 20%. Quicker more plentiful buses and trams will disproportionately help the working class.

No one is stopping public transport going in and through the city, use a park and ride or walk for a bit if you can. There will be more bus services due to this yes it's an inconvenience but we have no choice

Being concerned about the imp-act of over saturation of tourism isn't necessarily the same as concerns about gentrification, although no doubt there are social ramifications.

Climate change is complex and I feel ordinary people are often part of a blame game-guilt trip. WE can recycle all we want, but there is a relentless economic focus on consuming. Buy new compliant (electric-not so green) cars, build loads of new houses on the green belt (with no infrastructure of course), encourage a tourist economy and visitors at all costs (who of course will mostly fly, drive, cruise ship). Do you not see any irony around this?

For a planet on a knife edge , I'm not aware of much radical change. Still going to be driving cars (electric vehicle, carbon footprint), still importing huge amounts of food from all over the place, flying around on holidays.

There's a lot of lip service though.

[Moulin Yarns]

I'm in Glasgow just now for a few gigs in celtic connections and it's a relative pleasure to wander along large section of Argyll St, all of Buchanan St and sauchiehall St with no traffic, just having to worry about traffic at streets that cross them. I imagine George street will be like this. The bit of the high street in Edinburgh between George IV Bridge and the Bridges is the same relaxed traffic free environment. Rose street is a disaster though.

[hibee]

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It is if if we are to reduce driving by 20% by 2030, driving makes up 25% of our co2. We need to make it as difficult as possible for drivers. The planet is on a knife edge and people don't want to inconvenience themselves.

I thought it was all transport types that made up 25% of CO2 not just us driving cars.

The planet may be on a knife edge but if we continue to ignore China and make it worse by buying everything from them and sending it here on filthy ships there’s not much point in us closing a few roads in the city centre.

They did try to clean up ships but instead of using cleaner fuel they now just use scrubbers to divert the pollution into the sea as it’s so much cheaper for them.

I don’t know what the solution is but if the worst polluters don’t care then the planet is in trouble no matter what we do in our little country.

[Stairway 2 7]

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I thought it was all transport types that made up 25% of CO2 not just us driving cars.

The planet may be on a knife edge but if we continue to ignore China and make it worse by buying everything from them and sending it here on filthy ships there’s not much point in us closing a few roads in the city centre.

They did try to clean up ships but instead of using cleaner fuel they now just use scrubbers to divert the pollution into the sea as it’s so much cheaper for them.

I don’t know what the solution is but if the worst polluters don’t care then the planet is in trouble no matter what we do in our little country.

It's domestic transport that makes up 25% so cars vans lorries but cars makes up 90 odd % of that. There is no better way of us cutting carbon than reducing our driving. People won't do that on their own so the gov and council have to. It's not popular to do this so I'm glad all parties bar tories and lib dems are wanting to do this.

We could say what about them to everything we can only do what we can and that is reach net zero. We can't as a nation be a net carbon producer and look at people dying in the global South with our conscience clear. Why should we give aid to countries abroad who have war or famine if other nations don't ect ect

[Stairway 2 7]

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I'm in Glasgow just now for a few gigs in celtic connections and it's a relative pleasure to wander along large section of Argyll St, all of Buchanan St and sauchiehall St with no traffic, just having to worry about traffic at streets that cross them. I imagine George street will be like this. The bit of the high street in Edinburgh between George IV Bridge and the Bridges is the same relaxed traffic free environment. Rose street is a disaster though.

Every city that has brought in measures that I've seen has had anger against and then the public approve post.

I said yesterday but Ghent had riots and anger when they brought this in. Then 3 years post the vast majority wanted it extended. Its not just for tourists it's for us to have a centre worth spending time in. Just now the city is dying and it's a car park. Obviously the climate is the most important factor but a city we can all enjoy will be great

[RyeSloan]

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Every city that has brought in measures that I've seen has had anger against and then the public approve post.

I said yesterday but Ghent had riots and anger when they brought this in. Then 3 years post the vast majority wanted it extended. Its not just for tourists it's for us to have a centre worth spending time in. Just now the city is dying and it's a car park. Obviously the climate is the most important factor but a city we can all enjoy will be great

Was Ghent left with just two very poor options for their traffic to get East / West though?

While I get your point surely each City has its own challenges so a direct read across is not really possible.

Closing the cowgate creates a real challenge esp. if and when it’s combined with closing the park and the bridges and the mound.

And while cutting car use is a worthy objective of the actions just pushing cars onto the very few already congested and poorly designed routes that remain you achieve nothing but even more congestion and pollution.

[Ozyhibby]

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Was Ghent left with just two very poor options for their traffic to get East / West though?

While I get your point surely each City has its own challenges so a direct read across is not really possible.

Closing the cowgate creates a real challenge esp. if and when it’s combined with closing the park and the bridges and the mound.

And while cutting car use is a worthy objective of the actions just pushing cars onto the very few already congested and poorly designed routes that remain you achieve nothing but even more congestion and pollution.

I’m pretty sure every city that this happens to will have people saying ‘you can’t do that here’ or ‘our city just isn’t designed for that’. Dublin is having the exact same discussions now and you could almost copy and paste the same discussions from message boards and newspaper comment sections.
Once it’s all done we will wonder why we gave over so much of our city to cars.
Amsterdam did this 30 years ago and they have never looked back.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.fastcompany.com/90321627...et-rid-of-cars


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[grunt]

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Amsterdam did this 30 years ago and they have never looked back.

Amsterdam has somewhat fewer hills than Edinburgh. And they have a ready made alternative means of navigating around the city in canals. Plus a long established tram system. Not the best example.

[Stairway 2 7]

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Was Ghent left with just two very poor options for their traffic to get East / West though?

While I get your point surely each City has its own challenges so a direct read across is not really possible.

Closing the cowgate creates a real challenge esp. if and when it’s combined with closing the park and the bridges and the mound.

And while cutting car use is a worthy objective of the actions just pushing cars onto the very few already congested and poorly designed routes that remain you achieve nothing but even more congestion and pollution.

Ghent allowed no through access at all they were much stricter than us. They split their city into 7 sections and you can only go into one section, you can't travel from one section to another you need to go out then back in another sector. You have to drive round the centre rather than goingthrough. The very centre section is no cars at all bar deliveries early morning

[grunt]

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Ghent allowed no through access at all they were much stricter than us. They split their city into 7 sections and you can only go into one section, you can't travel from one section to another you need to go out then back in another sector. You have to drive round the centre rather than goingthrough. The very centre section is no cars at all bar deliveries early morning

Ghent is less than half the size of Edinburgh. I'm not sure in what other ways they are comparable.

[Ozyhibby]

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Ghent is less than half the size of Edinburgh. I'm not sure in what other ways they are comparable.

They are doing this in London, Paris, Madrid etc. Not small cities.


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[Stairway 2 7]

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Amsterdam has somewhat fewer hills than Edinburgh. And they have a ready made alternative means of navigating around the city in canals. Plus a long established tram system. Not the best example.

Amsterdam is a good example as everyone drove , tram use was limited and cycling non existent, canals have never been a serious mode of public transport their and still isn't. The great tram system grew from less cars. Electric bikes are booming in the uk and make Edinburgh a doddle cost pennies compared to cars too. In Ghent the car drivers mostly switched to public transport but bike use did increase too

Look at the pics what would you prefer
69xkzbnudbz91.jpgimage047.jpg

[Stairway 2 7]

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They are doing this in London, Paris, Madrid etc. Not small cities.


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Paris are going heavily with this Barcelona, Oslo, Helsinki,
San Francisco too, new York looking at it in Manhattan

[grunt]

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They are doing this in London, Paris, Madrid etc. Not small cities.

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Paris are going heavily with this Barcelona, Oslo, Helsinki,
San Francisco too, new York looking at it in Manhattan

None of these are closing the Cowgate to traffic.

[J-C]

In the mean time the council are issuing around 15 new PHC licenses per week when the roads are crammed with PHC cars already, add in the council giving a license to Bright buses to operate a regular bus service to the airport from Waterloo Pl adding further to the congestion, this city and this council are a joke.