Hamas attack on Israel

[grunt]

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I agree that they shouldn't be carpet bombing like they are but are people saying it should be a permanent and complete ceasefire. Surely that means Hamas regroup and get away with killing over 1000 Isrealis and what's to deter them doing it again.

Just read the highlighted bit again and I think you'll have answered your own question.

[Ozyhibby]

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Me too and therein lies the problem. We have 2 opposing sides sharing territory who are mortal enemies. The only solution other than genocide is a political one but both sides are so entrenched in the belief that the land is rightfully theirs, that 70 years of mediation has failed. If Israel want peace they will have to compromise and if the Palestinians want peace they will have to accept the state of Israel. None of that will happen anytime soon. Even if both sides came to agreement, outside influences would ensure it all kicks off again.

The PA in the West Bank would accept Isreal. It’s why Netanyahu always undermines them and builds up Hamas.

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcas...=1000631988366

Worth a listen.


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[Stairway 2 7]

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I doubt the 4000+ killed and the 16000+ injured think Hamas ” got away” with anything. Indeed, many might see it as retribution for the murder, oppression and brutality Isreal have visited upon the Palestinians over 75 years.

They won't they are the ones who suffer the retaliation which is horribly unfair and avoidable. If they see kids being shot and women raped as fair retribution then they are as warped as war can make someone

I doubt many isrealis will think its fair retribution. Infact every poll says they want Hamas destroyed completely. I would bet a majority of Scot’s would be the same if even adjusting for pops, 1000 were killed by terrorists and 100 odd were taken hostage.

Their population will only be happy when Hamas is destroyed which I think basically can't happen.

But still do the people calling for a ceasefire want a temporary one to get aid and move people or a permanent one where that is it settled

[Ozyhibby]

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They won't they are the ones who suffer the retaliation which is horribly unfair and avoidable. If they see kids being shot and women raped as fair retribution then they are as warped as war can make someone

I doubt many isrealis will think its fair retribution. Infact every poll says they want Hamas destroyed completely. I would bet a majority of Scot’s would be the same if even adjusting for pops, 1000 were killed by terrorists and 100 odd were taken hostage.

Their population will only be happy when Hamas is destroyed which I think basically can't happen.

But still do the people calling for a ceasefire want a temporary one to get aid and move people or a permanent one where that is it settled

No way can you destroy Hamas militarily. The only way to destroy Hamas is to offer a better solution to the Palestinians.
Revive the two state solution but only to the West Bank. Clear out the settlements and tell Gazans that they can have that too if they get rid of Hamas.


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[Stairway 2 7]

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Just read the highlighted bit again and I think you'll have answered your own question.

It doesn't. There is nuances. Obviously almost everyone the current bombing is too indiscriminate but do they agree that Isreal can destroy the terrorists. Most agreed with wiping out isis but that caused thousands of civilian deaths in capturing Mosul. Some want Ukraine to ceasefire but others say they should be able to take back their land which will cause innocent deaths although Ukraine appears to be minimising

[Stairway 2 7]

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No way can you destroy Hamas militarily. The only way to destroy Hamas is to offer a better solution to the Palestinians.
Revive the two state solution but only to the West Bank. Clear out the settlements and tell Gazans that they can have that too if they get rid of Hamas.


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I personally agree completely with all of that. Both sides need to have freedom and as they have lived for generations now both deserve to exist, I think anyone that thinks differently are terrible.

I hope isreal one day get a leader that respects that, stops killing kids stops stops stealing more land.

Will not happen anytime soon. Isreal Hamas and Iran will see to that

[Hibrandenburg]

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I personally agree completely with all of that. Both sides need to have freedom and as they have lived for generations now both deserve to exist, I think anyone that thinks differently are terrible.

I hope isreal one day get a leader that respects that, stops killing kids stops stops stealing more land.

Will not happen anytime soon. Isreal Hamas and Iran will see to that

It's gone beyond the point of stopping land grabs, they need to compromise and give some back. But that's never going to happen, there are too many third parties who have nothing to lose by arming and training Palestinian extremists and too many Israelis who have been given their promised land on Palestinian territory. Peace just isn't an option.

[Hibrandenburg]

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Palestinians could make a start by not going on about Nakba. Once the generation who suffered that dies out/forgets the detail, which will be relatively soon now, it will make not much more sense to commemorate it than people celebrating the Battle of the Boyne. Israelis could make a start by doing something about their disgraceful oppression of Palestinians. Easy.

You Nobel Peace Prize is in the post.

[Ozyhibby]

Starmer working really hard here to say nothing at all.


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[MKHIBEE]

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Starmer working really hard here to say nothing at all.


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The only Party preventing supplies getting in is Isreal. Remember, Keir, the one you gave unequivocal support to?

[Stairway 2 7]

Found this interesting. I thought the support for just Palestine would be higher. Perhaps due to Iran influence and Turkeys disagreements there


William Armstrong
@WJ_Armstrong
Interesting poll in Turkey on the Israel-Gaza war:

34.5% say Ankara should be neutral.
26.4% say it should mediate between the sides.
18.1% say it should support the Palestinians but be distant from Hamas.
11.3% say it should support Hamas.
3% say it should support Israel

[Stairway 2 7]

Lots of talk that Qatar led hostage negotiations have said the 200 hostages could be released if there is a full ceasefire.

Further Hamas leadership and apparatus would agree to leave Gaza for Lebanon. PLO had the same happen and it was a disaster causing war in Lebanon

https://twitter.com/KimGhattas/statu...19469893865796

[MKHIBEE]

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Lots of talk that Qatar led hostage negotiations have said the 200 hostages could be released if there is a full ceasefire.

Further Hamas leadership and apparatus would agree to leave Gaza for Lebanon. PLO had the same happen and it was a disaster causing war in Lebanon

https://twitter.com/KimGhattas/statu...19469893865796

What comes first, the release or the ceasefire? Isreal have already said the hostages must be released first

[MKHIBEE]

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https://x.com/implausibleblog/status...dxJXScFNwz8V4A

The only political party in the UK not supporting war crimes.


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A report on how some are trying to ensure that support for the Palestinians is unseen

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2...gain-and-again

[MKHIBEE]

Al Jazeera now reporting that Isreal are stopping Palestinians travelling to a mosque for prayers in the Occupied West Bank. Hardly seismic with what’s happening, just another piece of the dehumanising process of the Palestinians.

[Stairway 2 7]

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A report on how some are trying to ensure that support for the Palestinians is unseen

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2...gain-and-again

Although I agree with most of what he says that's about the least impartial article I've ever read 😆

[MKHIBEE]

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Although I agree with most of what he says that's about the least impartial article I've ever read 😆

It doesn’t mean it’s not an accurate reflection of what’s happening. We see impartial accounts of the conflict every day in the west. I find it refreshing to hear how Palestinians see things through their eyes. The constant barrage of pro Israeli propaganda is wearing.

[Stairway 2 7]

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It doesn’t mean it’s not an accurate reflection of what’s happening. We see impartial accounts of the conflict every day in the west. I find it refreshing to hear how Palestinians see things through their eyes. The constant barrage of pro Israeli propaganda is wearing.

I said I agreed with most it's just not something you would see in a paper. Isreal are baby killers and Palestine should be allowed to hit back is telling half the story, condem both for what happened he has nevermentioned the terrorism in any of his articles. He complains protests and actions around the world get unfairly labelled the "vacuous rhetorical canard, “anti-Semitism”" which is just vile imo, there is massive anti semitism rising from burning synagogues to murdered Jewish leaders. He's dismissing it.


I don't think his article helps just like any one sided article. The evidence is there for all Gaza is being flattened and kids shot by snipers. I don't know where you get your media but I think most have been pretty fair in saying Hamas were disgraceful but Isreal are now collectively punishing Gaza

[McSwanky]

I know it's a tiny thing, but are all the misspellings of Israel on this thread deliberate? Can't work out if I'm missing out on some private joke or not.

[MKHIBEE]

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I said I agreed with most it's just not something you would see in a paper. Isreal are baby killers and Palestine should be allowed to hit back is telling half the story, condem both for what happened he has nevermentioned the terrorism in any of his articles. He complains protests and actions around the world get unfairly labelled the "vacuous rhetorical canard, “anti-Semitism”" which is just vile imo, there is massive anti semitism rising from burning synagogues to murdered Jewish leaders. He's dismissing it.


I don't think his article helps just like any one sided article. The evidence is there for all Gaza is being flattened and kids shot by snipers. I don't know where you get your media but I think most have been pretty fair in saying Hamas were disgraceful but Isreal are now collectively punishing Gaza

Except that’s not what they are saying. They are calling Hamas terrorists, which is fair enough, but we are still subject to the only defence they can come up with, that Isreal has the right to defend itself. Both Hamas and the Israeli regime are, imo, guilty of war crimes. Guess which side won’t face any charges. It will be the Apartheid Isreal regime. Ever hear Western media call them that? Or call the West Bank, basically Palestine, the Occupied West Bank? The Israelis who steal land and houses are called settlers, not what they are, colonisers, or perhaps thieves. There is an effort to collectively dehumanise the Palestinian population in order to give the Israeli actions credence. We hear about the call for a “ humanitarian corridor” To do what? Feed, water and treat them before continuing to slaughter them? There is no call for a ceasefire, the West is complicit in the slaughter of thousands of innocent men, women and children by their inaction. Hamas are equally as guilty but who gets the terrorist label?

[Stairway 2 7]

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[/B][/I][/U]


Except that’s not what they are saying. They are calling Hamas terrorists, which is fair enough, but we are still subject to the only defence they can come up with, that Isreal has the right to defend itself. Both Hamas and the Israeli regime are, imo, guilty of war crimes. Guess which side won’t face any charges. It will be the Apartheid Isreal regime. Ever hear Western media call them that? Or call the West Bank, basically Palestine, the Occupied West Bank? The Israelis who steal land and houses are called settlers, not what they are, colonisers, or perhaps thieves. There is an effort to collectively dehumanise the Palestinian population in order to give the Israeli actions credence. We hear about the call for a “ humanitarian corridor” To do what? Feed, water and treat them before continuing to slaughter them? There is no call for a ceasefire, the West is complicit in the slaughter of thousands of innocent men, women and children by their inaction. Hamas are equally as guilty but who gets the terrorist label?

You need to read different media if that's all your getting. Twitter is awful if your not careful but you can choose what you read. Follow bellingcat, skwakbox, bywire, guardian, the I, the mirror. I think that in general the wests reporting has been pretty fair and pro Palestinian public

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/the-rules-war-must-followed-31281785

With UNICEF reporting 2,360 children have been killed in less than three weeks in Gaza, the Israeli bombardment is a merciless slaughter of innocents.

Hamas murdering 1,400 Israelis in the October 7 pogrom was a barbarous war crime but this mass killing of Palestinians is a grotesque abuse of international law. Israel has an absolute right to defend itself yet the rules of war must also be followed. It is not happening in Gaza where ordinary people are being denied food, water, medical care and power as bombs and missiles fall.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/23/israel-west-moralism-hypocrisy-veto/
Israel’s bombing of Gaza undercuts the West’s Ukraine moralism

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/global/commentisfree/2023/oct/18/uk-politicians-israel-hamas-war-tory-labour-israeli-crimes
Tory and Labour reluctance to criticise the Israeli government could make our leaders complicit in war crimes – the public needs to speak out

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/21/opinion/israel-gaza-palestine-children.html
We Must Not Kill Gazan Children to Try to Protect Israel’s Children

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-gaza-war-crimes-icc-1a42212b95a7f6ce54909fb22e0d681d
Experts say Hamas and Israel are committing war crimes in their fight

[Stairway 2 7]

Anas Sarwar and Sadiq Khan both call for a ceasefire

https://twitter.com/AnasSarwar/statu...76719166672938

[MKHIBEE]

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You need to read different media if that's all your getting. Twitter is awful if your not careful but you can choose what you read. Follow bellingcat, skwakbox, bywire, guardian, the I, the mirror. I think that in general the wests reporting has been pretty fair and pro Palestinian public

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politi...lowed-31281785

With UNICEF reporting 2,360 children have been killed in less than three weeks in Gaza, the Israeli bombardment is a merciless slaughter of innocents.

Hamas murdering 1,400 Israelis in the October 7 pogrom was a barbarous war crime but this mass killing of Palestinians is a grotesque abuse of international law. Israel has an absolute right to defend itself yet the rules of war must also be followed. It is not happening in Gaza where ordinary people are being denied food, water, medical care and power as bombs and missiles fall.




https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...ypocrisy-veto/
Israel’s bombing of Gaza undercuts the West’s Ukraine moralism

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.the...israeli-crimes
Tory and Labour reluctance to criticise the Israeli government could make our leaders complicit in war crimes – the public needs to speak out

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/21/o...-children.html
We Must Not Kill Gazan Children to Try to Protect Israel’s Children

https://apnews.com/article/israel-ha...909fb22e0d681d
Experts say Hamas and Israel are committing war crimes in their fight

Thank you for telling me what I need to read. It’s not a question of what I am getting from the the media, more of a question of that which is being omitted from the mainstream, as r mentioned in my earlier post. As for getting my information from twitter, do me a favour, it’s a cesspit which is why I left over 3 months ago.

[Stairway 2 7]

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Thank you for telling me what I need to read. It’s not a question of what I am getting from the the media, more of a question of that which is being omitted from the mainstream, as r mentioned in my earlier post. As for getting my information from twitter, do me a favour, it’s a cesspit which is why I left over 3 months ago.

I just put up links to the mainstream condemning and saying isreal is committing war crimes. They are so it's fair enough

Twitter only a cesspit if you read the for you tab. On following you can follow like 5 people and just get whatever they post, you literally only see what you choose to follow. I think it's really easy to not see the right wing bile and disinformation. All I follow are some journalists I like and a few music, history and sports pages.

[tamig]

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I know it's a tiny thing, but are all the misspellings of Israel on this thread deliberate? Can't work out if I'm missing out on some private joke or not.

I’m glad someone else asked that as its been bugging me for weeks. Still no answer though.

[One Day Soon]

That Hamas guying running out of the interview when confronted with the facts on murder, torture, kidnapping etc. What ****ing planet?

This is a mess. It's going to get a lot worse before it carries on getting a lot worse and then perhaps eventually falls into an exhausted state of hostility ie what it was just before the Hamas attack.

I literally cannot see any coherent way forward here. Unless Hamas leave Gaza Israel is rightly going to carry on going after them. Good, they need removing. But if this continues to be done in Gaza rather than elsewhere then innocent people are going to carry on being killed in large numbers. So how does this get moved on in any way that is sane?

There is a military response to be delivered here certainly, but there can only be a political solution.

What can Palestinians do to end this? Nothing that I can think of short of kicking out Hamas, which they can't do because Hamas run Gaza. And anyway the senior Hamas figures are holed up in Qatar. And kicking out Hamas doesn't equal getting a settlement.

What can Israel do to end this? Nothing that I can think of short of declaring a ceasefire and accepting the massacres perpetrated by Hamas, which they can't do because it won't be accepted domestically, it would embolden Hamas (and other similar groups) and it would encourage others in the region - principally Iran - to believe Israel is weak and unwilling to defend itself.

I suppose it would be theoretically possible for an Israeli leader to perform a massive 'turn the other cheek' and reach out for peace and a settlement. But who would they even speak to on the other side? What is the Palestinian voice and who embodies it?

I think the best outcome we get here is weeks, probably months, of IDF actions against Hamas wherever it think it can find them. Continued indiscriminate rocket attacks on Israel. Eventual war exhaustion among both ordinary Palestinians and Israelis. Netanyahu dumped in the next elections, if not before (I certainly think he's toast anyway). The Israel/Saudi accord forced through somehow. Then the longer game of hoping it isn't Trump, that Putin falls and that the Mullahs get their ***** kicked by the Iranian population. That's a pretty rose tinted view of it in my opinion.

I would say that Iran is playing a very, very dangerous game here and a reckless one. I'd imagine that a number of intelligence agencies will be working overtime to try and make sure they don't become a nuclear power.

[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/humzayousaf/status/171...dxJXScFNwz8V4A


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[Stairway 2 7]

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https://x.com/humzayousaf/status/171...dxJXScFNwz8V4A


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I dont understand why a ceasefire is needed for humanitarian aid going in. Why should that stop them from sending in aid in to the country.

Does a ceasefire not allow Hamas time to regroup and sort there logistics. It should be a given that essential aid is allowed in.

The Israelis will never accept a ceasefire the public wouldn't allow it

[Stairway 2 7]

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That Hamas guying running out of the interview when confronted with the facts on murder, torture, kidnapping etc. What ****ing planet?

This is a mess. It's going to get a lot worse before it carries on getting a lot worse and then perhaps eventually falls into an exhausted state of hostility ie what it was just before the Hamas attack.

I literally cannot see any coherent way forward here. Unless Hamas leave Gaza Israel is rightly going to carry on going after them. Good, they need removing. But if this continues to be done in Gaza rather than elsewhere then innocent people are going to carry on being killed in large numbers. So how does this get moved on in any way that is sane?

There is a military response to be delivered here certainly, but there can only be a political solution.

What can Palestinians do to end this? Nothing that I can think of short of kicking out Hamas, which they can't do because Hamas run Gaza. And anyway the senior Hamas figures are holed up in Qatar. And kicking out Hamas doesn't equal getting a settlement.

What can Israel do to end this? Nothing that I can think of short of declaring a ceasefire and accepting the massacres perpetrated by Hamas, which they can't do because it won't be accepted domestically, it would embolden Hamas (and other similar groups) and it would encourage others in the region - principally Iran - to believe Israel is weak and unwilling to defend itself.

I suppose it would be theoretically possible for an Israeli leader to perform a massive 'turn the other cheek' and reach out for peace and a settlement. But who would they even speak to on the other side? What is the Palestinian voice and who embodies it?

I think the best outcome we get here is weeks, probably months, of IDF actions against Hamas wherever it think it can find them. Continued indiscriminate rocket attacks on Israel. Eventual war exhaustion among both ordinary Palestinians and Israelis. Netanyahu dumped in the next elections, if not before (I certainly think he's toast anyway). The Israel/Saudi accord forced through somehow. Then the longer game of hoping it isn't Trump, that Putin falls and that the Mullahs get their ***** kicked by the Iranian population. That's a pretty rose tinted view of it in my opinion.

I would say that Iran is playing a very, very dangerous game here and a reckless one. I'd imagine that a number of intelligence agencies will be working overtime to try and make sure they don't become a nuclear power.

Agree with all of that

[tamig]

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I dont understand why a ceasefire is needed for humanitarian aid going in. Why should that stop them from sending in aid in to the country.

Does a ceasefire not allow Hamas time to regroup and sort there logistics. It should be a given that essential aid is allowed in.

The Israelis will never accept a ceasefire the public wouldn't allow it

More than half the Israeli population now against the current approach being taken by their government. On that basis, what “public” won’t “allow” it? How will they achieve that?