Climate change and the impending apocalypse

[lapsedhibee]

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I'm confident Scotland will be before England due to political will and action

If permitted.

[Kato]

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Uk has cut quicker than the rest of the g7 in the 30 years, its dropped since that graph to 50 so almost halved in 30 years. Some nations like china, US, Canada and Australia have hardly changed. We are now lower than the rest per capita too.

Much much more need done by us if we've to be net zero in 25 years, although I'm confident Scotland will be before England due to political will and action
Attachment 27051

Helps if you outsource your manufacturing. Uks figure would be higher if the footprint for imports were included.

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[Pretty Boy]

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I'd disagree that "nothing is being done" about climate change.

Perhaps, or even probably or definitely, not enough. But it seems to me like a fair bit is actually being done. My company are investing significantly with a very ambitious target of being net zero by 2030 - in line with Edinburgh Council plans, derived from government plans. Companies generally seem to be doing similar and those that aren't/won't will likely find themselves at the wrong side of public opinion and seeing those results in their sales.

As for JSO, I'm in favour of their cause but I'm just not sure I fully agree with their methods. Disrupting normal people going about their normal day doesn't sit right with me. Disrupting events I can better understand, particularly if they're overly carbon intensive. JSO overall get a positive green tick from me so long as they're only annoying Londoners.

When it comes to JSO I'm torn.

On the one hand I agree with their arguments and don't really object to their methods either. Others do though and it's such an important cause that they really have to take the public with them. If they have public opinion turn against them (or allow it to be manipulated against them) then they risk that same public opinion also turning against their cause. Too much energy is currently spent discussing their methods rather than their argument and, rightly or wrongly, that isn't changing imminently.

I posted a link a fair few pages back on this thread now to comments by one of the founders of the Green Party in the UK, Michael Benfield. He said the battle for environmental survival as it stood was lost. The article and Benfield himself came in for a bit of stick on here but I think he had a point. His argument wasn't we just give up and abandon our children and grandchildren to oblivion. Rather he said the green movement has succeeded in educating the public and indeed the scientific community. Man made climate change is widely accepted as the fact it is and there is general consensus there has to be change. Where the battle has been lost is politically and forcing mainstream parties to propose the radical changes needed and take the public with them in voting for it. I think it's an inarguable fact that battle has been lost as it stands and the full time whistle has already blown on the 1.5 degrees target. His argument is we are now in an age of mitigation and laying the foundations for future reversal.

I worry that JSO provide a soft target for climate change sceptics and disaster capitalists to rally against. Easy to brand them as 'professional protestors' or 'lunatics' and there are cheap laughs to be had from 'giving them a taste of their own medicine' by interrupting their own function the other day. As I say I support their aims and don't personally object to their methods, however we need public opinion to shift enough that real meaningful change becomes the political mainstream and I'm not sure they are driving that change in any meaningful way currently.

[Stairway 2 7]

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Helps if you outsource your manufacturing. Uks figure would be higher if the footprint for imports were included.

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We're a net importer of co2 but it's tiny compared to our drop in co2

We also produce 1.9% of the world's goods but are 0.9% of the world population. China is 28% US 16%

[Stairway 2 7]

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If permitted.

It's devolved and we're doing well. What we haven't done well is sell our renewable rights and profits for pennies to co2 monsters like Shell and bp

[lapsedhibee]

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It's devolved

For now.

[Stairway 2 7]

The elephant in the room is transport. Mainly the middle class that can afford to switch to electric cars. How do we get people who are struggling into electric. Also with millions living in flats we need to massively increase charging facilities. People moaning about cyclists should maybe look at the med

https://twitter.com/TransformScot/st...22620649697280
@TransformScot
Transport is the largest overall source of emissions in Scotland — responsible for 36% of all greenhouse gas emissions.

And...

...there has been next to no progress in reducing climate emissions from the sector over the past 3 decades

[RyeSloan]

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The elephant in the room is transport. Mainly the middle class that can afford to switch to electric cars. How do we get people who are struggling into electric. Also with millions living in flats we need to massively increase charging facilities. People moaning about cyclists should maybe look at the med

https://twitter.com/TransformScot/st...22620649697280
@TransformScot
Transport is the largest overall source of emissions in Scotland — responsible for 36% of all greenhouse gas emissions.

And...

...there has been next to no progress in reducing climate emissions from the sector over the past 3 decades

All those old ferries belching bunker oil fumes…

[AgentDaleCooper]

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I'd disagree that "nothing is being done" about climate change.

Perhaps, or even probably or definitely, not enough. But it seems to me like a fair bit is actually being done. My company are investing significantly with a very ambitious target of being net zero by 2030 - in line with Edinburgh Council plans, derived from government plans. Companies generally seem to be doing similar and those that aren't/won't will likely find themselves at the wrong side of public opinion and seeing those results in their sales.

As for JSO, I'm in favour of their cause but I'm just not sure I fully agree with their methods. Disrupting normal people going about their normal day doesn't sit right with me. Disrupting events I can better understand, particularly if they're overly carbon intensive. JSO overall get a positive green tick from me so long as they're only annoying Londoners.

I'm sort of the same, but I just think that it's getting to the point now that approving/disapproving of them/their methods is verging on moot and even getting into that discussion only serves to distract from the colossal task at hand.

[Ozyhibby]

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The elephant in the room is transport. Mainly the middle class that can afford to switch to electric cars. How do we get people who are struggling into electric. Also with millions living in flats we need to massively increase charging facilities. People moaning about cyclists should maybe look at the med

https://twitter.com/TransformScot/st...22620649697280
@TransformScot
Transport is the largest overall source of emissions in Scotland — responsible for 36% of all greenhouse gas emissions.

And...

...there has been next to no progress in reducing climate emissions from the sector over the past 3 decades

I think transport is easier to solve though than heating. Already we are fast moving to electric vehicles. Replacing gas for heating though is very difficult to do but must be done.


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[Stairway 2 7]

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I think transport is easier to solve though than heating. Already we are fast moving to electric vehicles. Replacing gas for heating though is very difficult to do but must be done.


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It can only come with the government putting the money in themselves. New builds and new cars are relatively easy. How do you say to people that can barely pay there mortgage that they need to pay 20k for a new car or heat pump, or do we just put everyone into long term debt.

I read 41 million cars in the uk and 800k are electric. With only 14% of new cars electric we are miles off.

[Paul1642]

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Yet we will still go out there and vote for political parties that won't do enough. Everything seems pointless really when the world is goverened by idiots that we all vote for. How many people will see these fires and think "thank god that's not us" and then go vote for Tories, Labour, SNP etc? And how many will see almost the entire Northern Hemisphere on fire and think "Green vote from now on, I know my way of life will change but I need to do it"? I'd give good odds on the ratio being about 10,000 : 1 in favour of the former.

Humanity is just intelligent enough to be catastrophically dangerous.

The problem is that the Scottish Greens have taken a strong stance on Independence that 50% of the population don’t agree with, as well as numerous other non environmental issues that don’t appeal to the masses such as the gender nonsense that played a part in Sturgeons downfall. The Uk Green Party are the same. I admit to not knowing if European or worldwide green party’s are the same way.

Give me a party who are actually just a pro environment party with either nothing else intent on entering a coalition or one with more moderate views and they will have my vote without a second thought. The current lot never will and I view my self as being very pro environmental action from the Gov.

[Paul1642]

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It can only come with the government putting the money in themselves. New builds and new cars are relatively easy. How do you say to people that can barely pay there mortgage that they need to pay 20k for a new car or heat pump, or do we just put everyone into long term debt.

I read 41 million cars in the uk and 800k are electric. With only 14% of new cars electric we are miles off.

This. We can advocate electric cars all we want but most people simply can’t afford an electric car. I can’t afford a new car of any engine type, only ever second hand. Unless electric cars ever filter into the used car market at affordable prices with plenty mileage left in the battery then the majority are never going to own them. I would much rather have an electric car but when it’s time to replace my current one in a few years time it’s almost certain to be petrol again for me for financial reasons.

Same goes for heat pumps. When my gas boiler eventually needs replaced unless a heat pump is remotely in the same price bracket as a gas one it will be gas again for me.

Just to top it off I can’t justify the cost of solar panels on my roof either.

I suspect all of the above applies to the majority of the population. None do this will change for me until I’m mortgage free in many years time.

[Smartie]

Is there not an argument to be made for walking before we run ie getting people out of older, more polluting vehicles and into more modern and better petrol engines before making the jump to electric?

Whilst the technology is where it is and the cars are as expensive as they are it feels like too big a step right now, when at least a step in the right direction is available?

[Ozyhibby]

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Is there not an argument to be made for walking before we run ie getting people out of older, more polluting vehicles and into more modern and better petrol engines before making the jump to electric?

Whilst the technology is where it is and the cars are as expensive as they are it feels like too big a step right now, when at least a step in the right direction is available?

Over the life of the car, they are probably just as cheap. One thing we need to start doing is keeping our cars longer. Replacing every 3 years is madness.


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[Ozyhibby]

It’s all just a laugh for Tories.


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[Paul1642]

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Over the life of the car, they are probably just as cheap. One thing we need to start doing is keeping our cars longer. Replacing every 3 years is madness.


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This is how the market works though. The 3 year old car doesn’t get scraped, it gets sold to someone who keeps a newish car but can’t afford new. They then sell their 6-9 year old car to someone currently driving something potentially on its last legs which quite possibly then gets scrapped.

[danhibees1875]

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It’s all just a laugh for Tories.


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I would imagine jokes like that are party apolitical.

*looks at the rain out the window in mid-July...*

[danhibees1875]

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When it comes to JSO I'm torn.

On the one hand I agree with their arguments and don't really object to their methods either. Others do though and it's such an important cause that they really have to take the public with them. If they have public opinion turn against them (or allow it to be manipulated against them) then they risk that same public opinion also turning against their cause. Too much energy is currently spent discussing their methods rather than their argument and, rightly or wrongly, that isn't changing imminently.

I posted a link a fair few pages back on this thread now to comments by one of the founders of the Green Party in the UK, Michael Benfield. He said the battle for environmental survival as it stood was lost. The article and Benfield himself came in for a bit of stick on here but I think he had a point. His argument wasn't we just give up and abandon our children and grandchildren to oblivion. Rather he said the green movement has succeeded in educating the public and indeed the scientific community. Man made climate change is widely accepted as the fact it is and there is general consensus there has to be change. Where the battle has been lost is politically and forcing mainstream parties to propose the radical changes needed and take the public with them in voting for it. I think it's an inarguable fact that battle has been lost as it stands and the full time whistle has already blown on the 1.5 degrees target. His argument is we are now in an age of mitigation and laying the foundations for future reversal.

I worry that JSO provide a soft target for climate change sceptics and disaster capitalists to rally against. Easy to brand them as 'professional protestors' or 'lunatics' and there are cheap laughs to be had from 'giving them a taste of their own medicine' by interrupting their own function the other day. As I say I support their aims and don't personally object to their methods, however we need public opinion to shift enough that real meaningful change becomes the political mainstream and I'm not sure they are driving that change in any meaningful way currently.

I'd agree with that, but equally I see their point that disruption isn't disruption without the disruption. It's a bit of a rock and a hard place for them...

You're right that too much energy is on their antics rather than their cause. I guess without those rogue antics there would be even less about their cause... although I do think that climate is at the fore of public consciousness now.

[JeMeSouviens]

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I think transport is easier to solve though than heating. Already we are fast moving to electric vehicles. Replacing gas for heating though is very difficult to do but must be done.


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Not nearly fast enough. The infrastructure is behind the current demand and I don't see any sign of the work being done to get it anywhere near where it needs to be. I will be beyond gobsmacked if the 2030 ban on new ice vehicles isn't delayed several years.

[JeMeSouviens]

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I'd agree with that, but equally I see their point that disruption isn't disruption without the disruption. It's a bit of a rock and a hard place for them...

You're right that too much energy is on their antics rather than their cause. I guess without those rogue antics there would be even less about their cause... although I do think that climate is at the fore of public consciousness now.

I think their hearts are in the right place but the tactics are likely counterproductive. What's happening in Italy and Greece is far more likely to have the right impact. Then again we watched Italy bear the brunt of the start of covid and sat on our hands.

[Pretty Boy]

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This is how the market works though. The 3 year old car doesn’t get scraped, it gets sold to someone who keeps a newish car but can’t afford new. They then sell their 6-9 year old car to someone currently driving something potentially on its last legs which quite possibly then gets scrapped.

It also has to be considered that replacing a working and serviceable ICE car with an electric one isn't a particularly green choice in the short term as it currently stands.

I have posted before that I looked into buying a Nissan Leaf a few years back and in their own literature they made it clear that until you had driven 74000 miles it was less environmentally friendly than an ICE car. My current 14 plate petrol car has only done 72000!

Of course that information is somewhat out of date now and was based on a worldwide average so was arguably never truly accurate in Scotland or the likes of France and other countries in which fossil fuels play a very small role in electricity production. It's also difficult to neatly wrap up the carbon footprint of lithium mining (that's before we mention some of the working conditions), sourcing of other raw materials and production against those of an ICE car but the latest data does show a positive shift in favour of electric vehicles across their lifetime. That still doesn't mean everyone should just abandon their petrol or diesel car tomorrow though.

Arguably a better solution, but one which is also less palatable and thus more difficult to sell, is breaking the mindset that a private car is an essential and escalating an aggressive push to get people onto public transport, minimising short and single private journeys in a car and encouraging car pooling and shared ownership. We are some way off that though and I'm always of the opinion that perfect shouldn't be the enemy of good and electric cars and encouraging people to keep their own cars longer to drive down manufacturing is a decent compromise.

[Jones28]

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When it comes to JSO I'm torn.

On the one hand I agree with their arguments and don't really object to their methods either. Others do though and it's such an important cause that they really have to take the public with them. If they have public opinion turn against them (or allow it to be manipulated against them) then they risk that same public opinion also turning against their cause. Too much energy is currently spent discussing their methods rather than their argument and, rightly or wrongly, that isn't changing imminently.

I posted a link a fair few pages back on this thread now to comments by one of the founders of the Green Party in the UK, Michael Benfield. He said the battle for environmental survival as it stood was lost. The article and Benfield himself came in for a bit of stick on here but I think he had a point. His argument wasn't we just give up and abandon our children and grandchildren to oblivion. Rather he said the green movement has succeeded in educating the public and indeed the scientific community. Man made climate change is widely accepted as the fact it is and there is general consensus there has to be change. Where the battle has been lost is politically and forcing mainstream parties to propose the radical changes needed and take the public with them in voting for it. I think it's an inarguable fact that battle has been lost as it stands and the full time whistle has already blown on the 1.5 degrees target. His argument is we are now in an age of mitigation and laying the foundations for future reversal.

I worry that JSO provide a soft target for climate change sceptics and disaster capitalists to rally against. Easy to brand them as 'professional protestors' or 'lunatics' and there are cheap laughs to be had from 'giving them a taste of their own medicine' by interrupting their own function the other day. As I say I support their aims and don't personally object to their methods, however we need public opinion to shift enough that real meaningful change becomes the political mainstream and I'm not sure they are driving that change in any meaningful way currently.

I genuinely think this is a lost cause. Not enough people care, too many people think "I can't make a difference as an individual" "What about China/India" "It'll be nice having warmer summers" "Electric cars still need electricity, where's that coming from" etc etc.

[Jones28]

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The elephant in the room is transport. Mainly the middle class that can afford to switch to electric cars. How do we get people who are struggling into electric. Also with millions living in flats we need to massively increase charging facilities. People moaning about cyclists should maybe look at the med

https://twitter.com/TransformScot/st...22620649697280
@TransformScot
Transport is the largest overall source of emissions in Scotland — responsible for 36% of all greenhouse gas emissions.

And...

...there has been next to no progress in reducing climate emissions from the sector over the past 3 decades

Make public transport free/very very cheap.

£2 for a bus ticket in Edinburgh? **** that, I'll drive the 2 miles I need to travel.

[lapsedhibee]

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Make public transport free

Yep

[Pretty Boy]

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Make public transport free/very very cheap.

£2 for a bus ticket in Edinburgh? **** that, I'll drive the 2 miles I need to travel.

Free, fully integrated and in public ownership.

Public transport is an essential service and should be run by the public sector for the public good, not for profit.

We have this mad situation currently whereby private train companies are receiving huge subsidies to run their franchises; subsidies that, even adjusted for inflation, dwarf the entire budget of British Rail. Imagine what a nationalised railway could look like with that kind of money thrown at it without having to pay dividends, bonuses and the like.

[Paul1642]

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Make public transport free/very very cheap.

£2 for a bus ticket in Edinburgh? **** that, I'll drive the 2 miles I need to travel.

Try walking (not aimed at you personally). I know not everyone can due to medical, health, age and sometimes weather or carrying bulky or heavy equipment / shopping but as a society if we got out of the mindset that we need to drive or take public transport for what would be not much more than a half hour walk then we would all be helping the environment as well as saving a little bit money and most importantly do wonders for our own personal heath.

At certain times of day on certain routes it hardly takes any longer. I can cycle my 5 mile commute in 20 minutes and I am by no means a very good cyclist or have a fancy bike. Even with low traffic I can’t drive this in much under 15 minutes. The only bit which adds some time is needing a shower on arrival at work and at home however this saves me needing a shower at home in the morning I suppose.

I can also run this in 40 mins each way which means I need to do much less running outwith my commute and therefore my free time is probably increased.

I think as a society we for some reason feel like a mile to two is driving or bus distance when most people with good heath can easily walk this or build up to walking this easy enough. Trips to foreign countries show just how good and safe the pavements are in Scotland for walking and we should take advantage of this.

As for your initial point I completely agree that free public transport would be a great think with the exception of discouraging short walks.

[Stairway 2 7]

With Yousaf apparently having a meeting with **** bug Brian Souter last month, I can't see privatisation never mind free fares.

£62 a month for Lothian buses isn't too bad, although it's hundreds of pounds a month on some scotrail routes. Germany has the right idea with cheap transport

[danhibees1875]

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Make public transport free/very very cheap.

£2 for a bus ticket in Edinburgh? **** that, I'll drive the 2 miles I need to travel.

I think £2 is great value. Edinburgh bus service is one of the things which makes this city so brilliant.

Whether I get the bus depends on where I'm going/why though. It's great for work, but I'd not bother with the hassle for the shops.

[lapsedhibee]

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As for your initial point I completely agree that free public transport would be a great think with the exception of discouraging short walks.

Hire a clippy to make sure that everyone able-bodied stays on for at least four stops.