SNP are lying b******s as well !

[archie]

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Money is only half the story. Scotland has an NHS staff shortage of over 7000, with those retiring leaving not being replaced. The Tories and Labour are both determined to continue down Brexit Avenue and the Scottish Government are forced to follow. They have no say in immigration, employment law, visas or citizenship, how on earth can they be expected to fill those vacancies without being able to widen the recruitment pool? NHS staff do an amazing job under the circumstances, but they can't continue to do the jobs of those missing from the system indefinitely, something has to give and sadly that's the staff themselves which only compounds the problems.

Again this focuses on the areas that the Scottish Government doesn't control as the solution. But it was the Scottish Government which cut nursing training places https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-blamed-as-unfilled-nursing-jobs-break-records-343490

[Hibrandenburg]

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Again this focuses on the areas that the Scottish Government doesn't control as the solution. But it was the Scottish Government which cut nursing training places https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-blamed-as-unfilled-nursing-jobs-break-records-343490

And yet we can't fill the training vacancies on offer. What's the point in creating more training vacancies if we don't have the people willing to take them?

[Moulin Yarns]

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Again this focuses on the areas that the Scottish Government doesn't control as the solution. But it was the Scottish Government which cut nursing training places https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-blamed-as-unfilled-nursing-jobs-break-records-343490

Talking of deflection. An article from 5 and a half years ago 😂😂😂


Here is more recent info for you

https://www.gov.scot/news/nhs-workforce-at-new-record-high/

[Stairway 2 7]

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Money is only half the story. Scotland has an NHS staff shortage of over 7000, with those retiring leaving not being replaced. The Tories and Labour are both determined to continue down Brexit Avenue and the Scottish Government are forced to follow. They have no say in immigration, employment law, visas or citizenship, how on earth can they be expected to fill those vacancies without being able to widen the recruitment pool? NHS staff do an amazing job under the circumstances, but they can't continue to do the jobs of those missing from the system indefinitely, something has to give and sadly that's the staff themselves which only compounds the problems.

We have record immigration year on year. Unfortunately most are staying in England, probably due to family ties. We need a way of getting them to come up here

[Since90+2]

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We have record immigration year on year. Unfortunately most are staying in England, probably due to family ties. We need a way of getting them to come up here

Clearly not enough of the immigrants are qualified health care staff though, thats the point.

By cutting off 300 million of your nearest neighbours we've made it far harder to fill these vacancies. That was a choice of Westminster, supported now by both Labour and Tory, and forced upon Scotland.

[Hibrandenburg]

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We have record immigration year on year. Unfortunately most are staying in England, probably due to family ties. We need a way of getting them to come up here

Aye, if only Scotland could set its own immigration rules.

[archie]

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Talking of deflection. An article from 5 and a half years ago 😂😂😂

So you think it's funny that training places were slashed and now we have staff shortages? By definition cutting training places has impacts years later. It's an example of where the Scottish Government has powers and took decisions that have made things worse.

[archie]

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Clearly not enough of the immigrants are qualified health care staff though, thats the point.

By cutting off 300 million of your nearest neighbours we've made it far harder to fill these vacancies. That was a choice of Westminster, supported now by both Labour and Tory, and forced upon Scotland.

Or don't cut the training places for medical staff.

[Stairway 2 7]

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Clearly not enough of the immigrants are qualified health care staff though, thats the point.

By cutting off 300 million of your nearest neighbours we've made it far harder to fill these vacancies. That was a choice of Westminster, supported now by both Labour and Tory, and forced upon Scotland.

15% of nhs staff are foreign and that number is getting larger in the last 10 years, the growth has been from India, Philippines and Nigeria mostly. We don't pay enough to entice EU nationals.

The immigrants aren't expected to come trained we are the ones that train them. Scottish and UK government cut funding for training and we're getting the fruits now. The numbers increased steadily when Labour was in power then it was slashed under the tories. We have the immigrants obviously 100ks from Ukraine alone, what we need is the funding to train

[Hibrandenburg]

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Or don't cut the training places for medical staff.

Creating training places for medical staff only makes sense if you have enough people willing to do the training.

[archie]

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Creating training places for medical staff only makes sense if you have enough people willing to do the training.

So are you saying that places were cut because of lack of interest?

[Just Alf]

Imagine if the Scot Gov didn't adjust training capacities to suit the expected volume of trainees.

I can see the Daily Mail headline!

SNP waste money on empty classrooms!

[Stairway 2 7]

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Aye, if only Scotland could set its own immigration rules.

Net immigration of 600k to the uk last year so the rules are pro immigration, the question is how to get them to choose Scotland

[archie]

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Imagine if the Scot Gov didn't adjust training capacities to suit the expected volume of trainees.

I can see the Daily Mail headline!

SNP waste money on empty classrooms!

Except the RCN kicked off about it at the time.

[Stairway 2 7]

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Creating training places for medical staff only makes sense if you have enough people willing to do the training.

With immigration growing each year I'm sure a good job like that would be snapped up. Immigration is only going to go one way fortunately due to the upcoming agreement with India. Nursing jobs would go in seconds if advertised there

[Hibrandenburg]

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Net immigration of 600k to the uk last year so the rules are pro immigration, the question is how to get them to choose Scotland

There are various reasons as to why immigrants prefer to settle in England as opposed to Scotland, the only way to change that would be for Scotland to be able to create its own immigration policy.

It costs about £12,000 per employee to recruit internationally, whereas before someone from Germany, Poland or Spain could have simply applied for the job if interested.

[Stairway 2 7]

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There are various reasons as to why immigrants prefer to settle in England as opposed to Scotland, the only way to change that would be for Scotland to be able to create its own immigration policy.

It costs about £12,000 per employee to recruit internationally, whereas before someone from Germany, Poland or Spain could have simply applied for the job if interested.

The reasons are wide yes mostly due to family. But the immigrants are in uk and in massive numbers so we don't have to recruit internationally just from down south.

The question is how can England with the same immigration laws managed manage to have massive net immigration each year but we can't. Uk just overtook Frances population due to immigration and is expected to take over Germany in 20 years. Net immigration isn't the problem, funding the study is

[archie]

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Aye, if only Scotland could set its own immigration rules.

Again, this is not a no consequence option. The WHO rials against the first world strip mining the rest of the world for staff. I appreciate there is a balance between individual rights and societal benefits, but I'm sure you would acknowledge the issue? https://www.who.int/news/item/14-03-...er-recruitment

[Hibrandenburg]

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The reasons are wide yes mostly due to family. But the immigrants are in uk and in massive numbers so we don't have to recruit internationally just from down south.

The question is how can England with the same immigration laws managed manage to have massive net immigration each year but we can't. Uk just overtook Frances population due to immigration and is expected to take over Germany in 20 years. Net immigration isn't the problem, funding the study is

Like you say, family is probably the main reason most UK immigrants stay in England, however climate, stereotypical prejudice, language (don't laugh) and infrastructure all play a role. Scotland needs an immigration programme trimmed to its needs, UK wide policy isn't working for Scotland. Scotland is much more attractive to European people than it is to those from further afield, that's why Brexit has had a disproportionate effect on our public and private services.

[grunt]

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Because politicos use it to deflect from issues affecting people in Scotland. If a waiting list is longer in England that makes no difference to my waiting time here.

One of the dumbest comments ever made on this topic.

[archie]

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One of the dumbest comments ever made on this topic.

Would you care to explain this?

[archie]

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One of the dumbest comments ever made on this topic.

As I've not had the benefit of any illumination about my 'dumbness' I'll have a go at responding. I think 'grunt' is conflating macro and micro indicators and responses. At a macro level, it makes perfect sense to benchmark performance against peers and comparable organisations. This will be in the public sector and business. Politicians use this all the time when the indicators are favourable.

At a micro level, by which I mean here individual level, I struggle to see how someone waiting an extended time for treatment is somehow comforted or aided by knowing that someone elsewhere is waiting longer. But as 'grunt' opines, this is a dumb view.

OK, off now to listen to some music https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_Yj...nel=amajor2002

[Just Alf]

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As I've not had the benefit of any illumination about my 'dumbness' I'll have a go at responding. I think 'grunt' is conflating macro and micro indicators and responses. At a macro level, it makes perfect sense to benchmark performance against peers and comparable organisations. This will be in the public sector and business. Politicians use this all the time when the indicators are favourable.

At a micro level, by which I mean here individual level, I struggle to see how someone waiting an extended time for treatment is somehow comforted or aided by knowing that someone elsewhere is waiting longer. But as 'grunt' opines, this is a dumb view.

OK, off now to listen to some music https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_Yj...nel=amajor2002

"At a macro level, it makes perfect sense to benchmark performance against peers and comparable organisations"

Which is what was being discussed/compared ?

I think it's unfair to call anyone dumb

But (lol) ... I do think it's either a deflection or just being contrary to move the discussion onto the micro level to avoid having to acknowledge that in some measures one government is currently performing better than the other.

At an individual level I'll guarantee there will be unacceptable situations/waits in all 4 nations at one point or another.

Enjoy yer sounds :-)

[grunt]

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I think it's unfair to call anyone dumb

I didn't call anyone dumb.

[archie]

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"At a macro level, it makes perfect sense to benchmark performance against peers and comparable organisations"

Which is what was being discussed/compared ?

I think it's unfair to call anyone dumb

But (lol) ... I do think it's either a deflection or just being contrary to move the discussion onto the micro level to avoid having to acknowledge that in some measures one government is currently performing better than the other.

At an individual level I'll guarantee there will be unacceptable situations/waits in all 4 nations at one point or another.

Enjoy yer sounds :-)

I was making a point about the use of generalised numbers to address individual issues, as was happening on the thread. At least I think that's what I was doing.

[Just Alf]

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I was making a point about the use of generalised numbers to address individual issues, as was happening on the thread. At least I think that's what I was doing.

Ah , fair doo's


I'm off to watch a film

https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0109686/?ref_=ext_shr_lnk

[archie]

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Ah , fair doo's


I'm off to watch a film

https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0109686/?ref_=ext_shr_lnk

Which is which?

[Just Alf]

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Which is which?

Ha ha... we are one

[Kato]

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_Yj...nel=amajor2002

Tune

[greenginger]

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The reasons are wide yes mostly due to family. But the immigrants are in uk and in massive numbers so we don't have to recruit internationally just from down south.

The question is how can England with the same immigration laws managed manage to have massive net immigration each year but we can't. Uk just overtook Frances population due to immigration and is expected to take over Germany in 20 years. Net immigration isn't the problem, funding the study is

Could it be that immigrants coming to the UK want to remain in the UK and not become residents of an independent Scottish state.

I don’t suppose that would be a question in any Scottish Government funded survey.