Scottish Independence

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

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Do you really want an echo chamber?

Do you really want to make me cry? 😉

[Skol]

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noooooooo the EU wouldn't want us, we're just too wee :(

We complain the tories take Scottish oil and want to leave and hand it to the eu instead

[Jack]

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We complain the tories take Scottish oil and want to leave and hand it to the eu instead

How would it be handing it to the EU? (Other than the stats.)

[CropleyWasGod]

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We complain the tories take Scottish oil and want to leave and hand it to the eu instead

Currently, Corporation Tax (and most energy-related taxes) are reserved, so the UK Treasury takes the tax revenue. In an IS, the Scottish Treasury would have it.

[grunt]

Measuring state pension as a percentage of average earnings is not helpful, apparently.

[archie]

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Measuring state pension as a percentage of average earnings is not helpful, apparently.

If you looked at the OECD link I posted you'll see that it's a lot more complex than that. Mix of workplace schemes which are less common elsewhere, higher pension contributions abroad and range of benefits in UK, plus NHS. I'm not saying that the UK pension arrangements are good, but the stuff you are posting doesn't represent the full story.

[grunt]

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If you looked at the OECD link I posted you'll see that it's a lot more complex than that. Mix of workplace schemes which are less common elsewhere, higher pension contributions abroad and range of benefits in UK, plus NHS. I'm not saying that the UK pension arrangements are good, but the stuff you are posting doesn't represent the full story.

I never said it did. But the disparity on this one measure is enormous. That's all I'm saying.

[degenerated]

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I never said it did. But the disparity on this one measure is enormous. That's all I'm saying.

You're making the mistake of comparing us against countries which are better at something. That's not how it works

[Keith_M]

If somebody made another poll on independence but instead had two questions:

1) Would you vote in favour of independence,
AND
2) Do you think it will ever happen

...,my answers would have to be YES and NO, in that order.


As others have said, the 'Yes' figure usually fluctuates somewhere around the 50% mark (currently a bit lower), but there's no trend now to suggest this is increasing, or that it will change anytime soon.

Combine that with the UK establishment's apparent determination to block a referendum, I think it's unlikely we'll see another one in my lifetime.

[weecounty hibby]

Yes and yes. I was distraught after the referendum and thought my chance of seeing Scotland as an independent nation had gone. I now believe its inevitable as there is no argument for the union. Every argument for staying in the union has been thrown out in the last 9 years. If it was a referendum for an independent Scotland joining into a union with the present rUK. I'm not sure you'd get many takersq

[Ozyhibby]

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Yes and yes. I was distraught after the referendum and thought my chance of seeing Scotland as an independent nation had gone. I now believe its inevitable as there is no argument for the union. Every argument for staying in the union has been thrown out in the last 9 years. If it was a referendum for an independent Scotland joining into a union with the present rUK. I'm not sure you'd get many takersq

I’m yes and yes as well. There is nobody making the positive case for the union anymore. There is the occasional attempt but it always seems almost apologetic.


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[TrumpIsAPeado]

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Yes and yes. I was distraught after the referendum and thought my chance of seeing Scotland as an independent nation had gone. I now believe its inevitable as there is no argument for the union. Every argument for staying in the union has been thrown out in the last 9 years. If it was a referendum for an independent Scotland joining into a union with the present rUK. I'm not sure you'd get many takersq

I agree. I feel that the only thing holding it together is a fear of leaving. Yet, if we were never part of the UK in the first place, then we'd be looking at it right now with a fear of joining. Sometimes it's difficult to see what something is turning into, when you're part of that something. I believe that's where Scotland is right now.

[Keith_M]

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Yes and yes. I was distraught after the referendum and thought my chance of seeing Scotland as an independent nation had gone. I now believe its inevitable as there is no argument for the union. Every argument for staying in the union has been thrown out in the last 9 years. If it was a referendum for an independent Scotland joining into a union with the present rUK. I'm not sure you'd get many takersq

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I’m yes and yes as well. There is nobody making the positive case for the union anymore. There is the occasional attempt but it always seems almost apologetic.


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I'm maybe just more negative than you guys, but I'm not really seeing a surge in enthusiasm in general for independence, hence my current feeling about it.


This is obviously just one guy's opinion... and I am a miserable old git

[Ozyhibby]

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I'm maybe just more negative than you guys, but I'm not really seeing a surge in enthusiasm in general for independence, hence my current feeling about it.


This is obviously just one guy's opinion... and I am a miserable old git

I don’t think there is a surge either way. It’s pretty steady and doesn’t move much. 51-49 is progress from 2014 but that’s about it. Is that people changing their mind or just demographic gradually moving in Yes’s favour? No idea personally.


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[Jack]

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I don’t think there is a surge either way. It’s pretty steady and doesn’t move much. 51-49 is progress from 2014 but that’s about it. Is that people changing their mind or just demographic gradually moving in Yes’s favour? No idea personally.


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But we all know what happened the last time. A 20ish% surge in the independence vote is why we'll not get permission in the way it was granted last time round.

[Ozyhibby]

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But we all know what happened the last time. A 20ish% surge in the independence vote is why we'll not get permission in the way it was granted last time round.

I can see why they fear it but I don’t see what their long term plan is? There isn’t really any attempt to make things better or give more autonomy to Scotland? Gordon Browns plan was so watered down it was really just about the House of Lords by the time it got released and it looks like that has been shelved now as well.
I think the plan has been to go after Sturgeon and hope support crumbles thereafter. Indy support hasn’t moved an inch and they have put everything into discrediting her.
Maybe they are playing 3D chess and I just can’t see it.


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[Ozyhibby]

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[Jack]

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These tricky statisticians putting 3 individual single stats up together because 3 tweets with an individual stat each would be meaningless 😆

[cabbageandribs1875]

but but we're just too wee

[archie]

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I never said it did. But the disparity on this one measure is enormous. That's all I'm saying.

But that measure is widely misconstrued, including on here. It the equivalent of posting a list of the minimum wage by country and the saying that represents average earnings.

[Ozyhibby]

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But that measure is widely misconstrued, including on here. It the equivalent of posting a list of the minimum wage by country and the saying that represents average earnings.

Are you saying our average earnings compare favourably with our neighbours?


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[Mibbes Aye]

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but but we're just too wee

That's nice and using tidal is far, far better than dirty oil, that's for sure.

But Scottish Government estimated Scotland has 25% of Europe's total. Which is also nice.

So, one of them is lying, or seriously poor at maths.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

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That's nice and using tidal is far, far better than dirty oil, that's for sure.

But Scottish Government estimated Scotland has 25% of Europe's total. Which is also nice.

So, one of them is lying, or seriously poor at maths.

Certainly nice for a sensible and realistic transition from fossil fuels to renewable's as opposed to Labours 'jam tomorrow' approach.

[archie]

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Are you saying our average earnings compare favourably with our neighbours?


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I'm saying that the state pension stat is seriously misleading in terms of what pensioners actually receive.

[Stairway 2 7]

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That's nice and using tidal is far, far better than dirty oil, that's for sure.

But Scottish Government estimated Scotland has 25% of Europe's total. Which is also nice.

So, one of them is lying, or seriously poor at maths.

Lorna Slater mislead parliament by saying Scotland had 25% of Europe's potential capacity. The stat wasn't sourced but still used

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23132550.greens-lorna-slater-misled-parliament-energy-figure/

[Skol]

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How would it be handing it to the EU? (Other than the stats.)

Which was my point. It’s really a meaningless article.

[Jack]

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I'm saying that the state pension stat is seriously misleading in terms of what pensioners actually receive.

That pensions stat has been announced on a regular basis for as long as I can remember suggesting it's not tied to any particular party bashing. A good 20/30 years anyway.

You would have thought your excuse for it being so low would have been officially challenged in that time with actual figures to show these hidden, uncosted benefits you speak of. Figures that could be fact checked. You'd also think that now and again at least the multiple agencies producing these figures would also include a UK government disclaimer/footnote detailing them too. I can't say I've ever seen any.

[Stairway 2 7]

A decent article on helping compare pensions. I was surprised at how many Australian and US pensioners are in poverty 23%.

https://www.ii.co.uk/analysis-commen...urope-ii525935

How does the UK state pension compare?
To compare the UK state pension with other countries across Europe, we really need to include private and workplace pensions. The state pension provides a basic income, but workplace and private pensions, boosted by pension tax relief, can help us achieve a comfortable retirement and are a key part of the UK pension system.

However, looking at the table below you can see that the UK government spends far less on the state pension, as a proportion of GDP, than many other countries. Even if the £43 billion spent on pension tax relief is added in, government spending on pensions still lags behind most countries in Europe. Levels of pensioner poverty are also higher than other countries in Europe, suggesting many pensioners are struggling to supplement the flat-rate UK state pension

[CropleyWasGod]

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A decent article on helping compare pensions. I was surprised at how many Australian and US pensioners are in poverty 23%.

https://www.ii.co.uk/analysis-commen...urope-ii525935

How does the UK state pension compare?
To compare the UK state pension with other countries across Europe, we really need to include private and workplace pensions. The state pension provides a basic income, but workplace and private pensions, boosted by pension tax relief, can help us achieve a comfortable retirement and are a key part of the UK pension system.

However, looking at the table below you can see that the UK government spends far less on the state pension, as a proportion of GDP, than many other countries. Even if the £43 billion spent on pension tax relief is added in, government spending on pensions still lags behind most countries in Europe. Levels of pensioner poverty are also higher than other countries in Europe, suggesting many pensioners are struggling to supplement the flat-rate UK state pension

... partly offset by the tax revenue on pension income.

[Curried]

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A decent article on helping compare pensions. I was surprised at how many Australian and US pensioners are in poverty 23%.

https://www.ii.co.uk/analysis-commen...urope-ii525935

How does the UK state pension compare?
To compare the UK state pension with other countries across Europe, we really need to include private and workplace pensions. The state pension provides a basic income, but workplace and private pensions, boosted by pension tax relief, can help us achieve a comfortable retirement and are a key part of the UK pension system.

However, looking at the table below you can see that the UK government spends far less on the state pension, as a proportion of GDP, than many other countries. Even if the £43 billion spent on pension tax relief is added in, government spending on pensions still lags behind most countries in Europe. Levels of pensioner poverty are also higher than other countries in Europe, suggesting many pensioners are struggling to supplement the flat-rate UK state pension

I'm not clear on how they have come up with this number, but the article is clearly bollocks, as the Australian State Pension for the poorest in society is currently $523/week. That's about 285 quid a week or 100 quid (>50%) a week more than the UK State pension listed in the table!!!