Scottish Independence

[Mibbes Aye]

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So there is a legal route, but only if Westminster decides to allow it. Glad we've cleared that up.

Im fairness, Westminster is the legislature of our country, Kind of what happens in a representative democracy.

[Steven79]

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Im fairness, Westminster is the legislature of our country, Kind of what happens in a representative democracy.

Scotland is treated as a colony by London but I assume you are okay with this?

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[Mibbes Aye]

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Scotland is treated as a colony by London but I assume you are okay with this?

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I reject your view that Scotland is treated as a colony by London, so it doesn’t really matter what I am or am not okay with.

What is ‘London’ even meant to signify anyway?

Is it just a glib generalisation based on the the fact that centres of power are often viewed negatively by those further away?

I can tell you there is no shortage of people in Inverness who feel like poor cousins to the Central Belt, when it comes to the SG.

And I can tell you that there is no shortage of people in Wick and Caithness more generally, who feel they get a raw deal compared to Inverness.

[Just Alf]

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I reject your view that Scotland is treated as a colony by London, so it doesn’t really matter what I am or am not okay with.

What is ‘London’ even meant to signify anyway?

Is it just a glib generalisation based on the the fact that centres of power are often viewed negatively by those further away?

I can tell you there is no shortage of people in Inverness who feel like poor cousins to the Central Belt, when it comes to the SG.

And I can tell you that there is no shortage of people in Wick and Caithness more generally, who feel they get a raw deal compared to Inverness.

That's pretty poor MA , even I get that in this context London = Westminster Parliament.
Yer.no that daft


On the rest of it, this is where I get genuinely confused ...

It's OK for Wick to feel they're getting a poorer deal than Inverness and for them in turn to have similar thoughts to Wick but in relation to Edinburgh/Central Belt but it's not OK for Edinburgh/Central Belt to have those same views regarding Westminster/London.

Apologies if I've misunderstood, my own preference is to have the maximum viable devolved government at Council level.
And for me, at least, independence is a step down that road.... only a step mind!

[Kato]

https://twitter.com/FreeThinker2030/...7THSqxWCw&s=09

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[Mibbes Aye]

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That's pretty poor MA , even I get that in this context London = Westminster Parliament.
Yer.no that daft

I know, but I think it is on other people to say what they mean rather than making sweeping generalisations. It's a bit like the Tories moaning about the Blob. Back it up, for heavern's sake.

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the rest of it, this is where I get genuinely confused ...

It's OK for Wick to feel they're getting a poorer deal than Inverness and for them in turn to have similar thoughts to Wick but in relation to Edinburgh/Central Belt but it's not OK for Edinburgh/Central Belt to have those same views regarding Westminster/London.

Apologies if I've misunderstood, my own preference is to have the maximum viable devolved government at Council level.
And for me, at least, independence is a step down that road.... only a step mind!

I agree with you about genuine devolution - I would go further down than council areas. Some of them are based on decades-old assumptions and projections, even the most recent are what, thirty years old?

I'm not going into it at length because I did it a couple of times before to show why I thought there was a better way that wasn't the status quo and wasn't the nationalist goal. It was a very lengthy post! But based on my experience and understanding, and my opinon to be fair, I think you could extend participatory budgeting to a sub-council level, perhaps along the lines of where community councils sit, under the umbrella of a regional government - South-East Scotland, for example, based on Edinburgh, the Lothians, and maybe what are essentialy commuter dormitories now, in parts of Fife and the top of the Borders. Anyway thats too much detail.

I don't think independence is necessarily a step down that road. The SNP have talked loudly about localism but cut its legs off across the board. Council revenue-raising powers blocked, Police and fire centralised. Social care shfting from councils to ministers. One-year funding settlements. Disproportionate ringfencing. It's all a power grab away from local decision-making.

This also touches upon your other point about SG/HMG - when it comes down to it, most things that affect us on a daily basis - the schools oour chldren go to, the carers who look after our aged relatives, the GPs, dentists, nurses and consultants we see (if we are lucky), the roads we drive on to see them or the buses we take to see them, the state of the streets outside our windows etc etc etc all sits away from Westminster and under Holyrood anyway?

[Steven79]

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I reject your view that Scotland is treated as a colony by London, so it doesn’t really matter what I am or am not okay with.

What is ‘London’ even meant to signify anyway?

Is it just a glib generalisation based on the the fact that centres of power are often viewed negatively by those further away?

I can tell you there is no shortage of people in Inverness who feel like poor cousins to the Central Belt, when it comes to the SG.

And I can tell you that there is no shortage of people in Wick and Caithness more generally, who feel they get a raw deal compared to Inverness.

So why do we have a secretary of state for Scotland and not England?

Why do we have a devolved Parliament in Scotland but not in England?

If we really were a "union" of equals then...

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[Mibbes Aye]

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https://twitter.com/FreeThinker2030/...7THSqxWCw&s=09

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That sort of thing reminds me of Stewart Lee, in Glasgow, doing his Braveheart routine.

You would have to be ridiculously thin-skinned not to laugh with Lee's jokes.

[Callum_62]

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That sort of thing reminds me of Stewart Lee, in Glasgow, doing his Braveheart routine.

You would have to be ridiculously thin-skinned not to laugh with Lee's jokes.

Yeah, totally the same - a stand up comedian and a politician in Westminster

There's more truth in that statement than first appears to be fair

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[Mibbes Aye]

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So why do we have a secretary of state for Scotland and not England?

Why do we have a devolved Parliament in Scotland but not in England?

If we really were a "union" of equals then...

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First point - Scotland has a separate, similar but different legal system touching on many, many aspects of our lives. Prior to the Scottish Parliament you needed a department of civil servants to deliver policy in line with legislation. And if you have a department you need ministers to instruct the civil servants.

Second point - public opinion waxed and waned but increasingly grew to a desire for Scotland to have more decision-making powers. The Campaign for a Scottish Assembly was a pluralist group who argued for this and built up popular support. The CSA was superceded by the Consitituional Convention with support for devolution continuing to grow. New Labour, led by ony Blair made a devolution referendum for Scotland (and Wales and London IIRC) a manifesto pledge. Labour were elected and delivered the referendum. The people said yes in big numbers, yes to tax-raising powers in less big numbers and we had a Parliament (the actual building itself took a bit longer)

Third point - ....?

[Kato]

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That sort of thing reminds me of Stewart Lee, in Glasgow, doing his Braveheart routine.

You would have to be ridiculously thin-skinned not to laugh with Lee's jokes.

I can laugh at Lee's jokes, the Braveheart skit is ballsy given he told it to Scottish audience.

The people in the video aren't in Scotland telling their "joke" to a Scottish audience though so I don't see the relevance of your comparison. They are in the UK parliament.

Nothing to laugh "with", just a bunch of entitled twats revealing themselves.

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[Mibbes Aye]

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Yeah, totally the same - a stand up comedian and a politician in Westminster

There's more truth in that statement than first appears to be fair

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It was her maiden speech in the HoC. Her constituency is the birthplace of Oliver Cromwell.

She actually apologised in the Herald for it afterwards, when the whole backlash thing started.

I'm Scottish by blood and birth and I thought it was harmless enough, a weak joke, nothing else. My only issue was the referencing to slavery which I don't think was appropriate, it risks making light of something which is as endemic today as it ever has been.

[grunt]

Only catching half this discussion. Is someone saying they find Lucy Frazer's speech funny?

[Mibbes Aye]

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I can laugh at Lee's jokes, the Braveheart skit is ballsy given he told it to Scottish audience.

The people in the video aren't in Scotland telling their "joke" to a Scottish audience though so I don't see the relevance of your comparison. They are in the UK parliament.

Nothing to laugh "with", just a bunch of entitled twats revealing themselves.

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If only the one in four Scottish children living in poverty got the same level of knickers in a twist.

[Kato]

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If only the one in four Scottish children living in poverty got the same level of knickers in a twist.

Sorry, I'm not sure what you are on about there. Crap attempt at deflection, but on par with others you've came up with. Stewart Lee it ain't.

The speech is a disgrace and like many on that side of the house pandering to their base, reactionary leanings.

I'm pointing out she feels comfortable saying that about Scottish people in that chamber as it is seen by those in video as seperate from Scotland.

If an SNP mp said similar about English people I don't they'd be chuckling.

Why do you think the joke is taken so lightly by those in the video?

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[Smartie]

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That sort of thing reminds me of Stewart Lee, in Glasgow, doing his Braveheart routine.

You would have to be ridiculously thin-skinned not to laugh with Lee's jokes.

Stewart Lee is hilarious, I love his Paul Nuttall from UKIP routine. Chucking national identity away for a second, I get the feeling that Stewart Lee would share a roughly similar set of values with the vast majority of people in Scotland therefore he's welcome to laugh with us and laugh at us as he pleases. As has been pointed out, it takes balls to do that to a Scottish audience, knowing that some may disagree.

Tory backbenchers can get firmly TF when they laugh at us like that. There's a world of difference between that snidey nonsense in the House of Commons and an edgy comedian coming and doing it to your face so you can laugh with him.

[Just Alf]

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I know, but I think it is on other people to say what they mean rather than making sweeping generalisations. It's a bit like the Tories moaning about the Blob. Back it up, for heavern's sake.



I agree with you about genuine devolution - I would go further down than council areas. Some of them are based on decades-old assumptions and projections, even the most recent are what, thirty years old?

I'm not going into it at length because I did it a couple of times before to show why I thought there was a better way that wasn't the status quo and wasn't the nationalist goal. It was a very lengthy post! But based on my experience and understanding, and my opinon to be fair, I think you could extend participatory budgeting to a sub-council level, perhaps along the lines of where community councils sit, under the umbrella of a regional government - South-East Scotland, for example, based on Edinburgh, the Lothians, and maybe what are essentialy commuter dormitories now, in parts of Fife and the top of the Borders. Anyway thats too much detail.

I don't think independence is necessarily a step down that road. The SNP have talked loudly about localism but cut its legs off across the board. Council revenue-raising powers blocked, Police and fire centralised. Social care shfting from councils to ministers. One-year funding settlements. Disproportionate ringfencing. It's all a power grab away from local decision-making.

This also touches upon your other point about SG/HMG - when it comes down to it, most things that affect us on a daily basis - the schools oour chldren go to, the carers who look after our aged relatives, the GPs, dentists, nurses and consultants we see (if we are lucky), the roads we drive on to see them or the buses we take to see them, the state of the streets outside our windows etc etc etc all sits away from Westminster and under Holyrood anyway?

Thanks Mibbes Aye, that all makes sense and much we agree on.

I hesitate to think what your 'long' post was like if this is your short version!

[lapsedhibee]

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Only catching half this discussion. Is someone saying they find Lucy Frazer's speech funny?

It's a bit like a Stewart Lee routine, in that it's available on youtube and there are people in it laughing.

[Mibbes Aye]

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Thanks Mibbes Aye, that all makes sense and much we agree on.

I hesitate to think what your 'long' post was like if this is your short version!

It didn't quite break the internet but it near enough broke me

[Smartie]

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Thanks Mibbes Aye, that all makes sense and much we agree on.

I hesitate to think what your 'long' post was like if this is your short version!

As someone who disagrees with MA on the independence question, his "long version" is actually very thought provoking and appealing as an alternative to all the options that are currently on the table.

I'd heartily endorse him getting that version back out again at some point, although maybe not if the process were to finally break him.

[Skol]

Oh what an oppressed nation we are.

[JimBHibees]

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Sorry, I'm not sure what you are on about there. Crap attempt at deflection, but on par with others you've came up with. Stewart Lee it ain't.

The speech is a disgrace and like many on that side of the house pandering to their base, reactionary leanings.

I'm pointing out she feels comfortable saying that about Scottish people in that chamber as it is seen by those in video as seperate from Scotland.

If an SNP mp said similar about English people I don't they'd be chuckling.

Why do you think the joke is taken so lightly by those in the video?

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If an SNP mp said similar about English folk it would be first item on news at ten and front page of the newspapers

[Kato]

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Oh what an oppressed nation we are.

The UK? Yup.

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[Skol]

https://robinmcalpine.org/as-the-lau...-end-the-joke/

[StevieC]

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I don't think independence is necessarily a step down that road. The SNP have talked loudly about localism but cut its legs off across the board. Council revenue-raising powers blocked, Police and fire centralised. Social care shfting from councils to ministers. One-year funding settlements. Disproportionate ringfencing. It's all a power grab away from local decision-making.

I don’t normally post much on here these days, for some reason I’ve got less political after I became more political 😏 if you kinda know what I mean 😉

I might agree that Independence isn’t necessarily a step down that road (although get that there could be reasoned arguments that it is) .. but if we are talking about the here and now then I can’t agree with what you threw in after that statement.

I could go into it in more detail (if I wasn’t so busy with all the work I’m doing at local government level 😉) but I suspect I’d be wasting what little free time I have these days.

[Mibbes Aye]

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I don’t normally post much on here these days, for some reason I’ve got less political after I became more political �� if you kinda know what I mean ��

I might agree that Independence isn’t necessarily a step down that road (although get that there could be reasoned arguments that it is) .. but if we are talking about the here and now then I can’t agree with what you threw in after that statement.

I could go into it in more detail (if I wasn’t so busy with all the work I’m doing at local government level ��) but I suspect I’d be wasting what little free time I have these days.

If you mean the bit I said about social care and buses and streets and stuff, I think you are right and I worded it clumsily.

I've posted before that the biggest impact on most people's lives, especially vulnerable people, in Scotland has sat with local authorities and the territorial health boards. I'm sure you are no stranger to people talking about services they value and need but dont know that they are supports that the council provides or pays for.

It got caught up in another point about the shift to the centre. No doubt you will know Perth and Kinross Health and Social Care Partnership well, you might be one of the elected members with voting riights on the IJB. The proposals to reorganise social care are a good example of a power grab - COSLA, SOLACE and the unions have found common ground there I think.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

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If an SNP mp said similar about English folk it would be first item on news at ten and front page of the newspapers

Running with the "independence supporters are all anglophobes" angle. But it's just a harmless laugh when Westminster ramble on about those sweaty socks under their thumb.

[Ozyhibby]

Support for Indy remains solid.


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[The Modfather]

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Support for Indy remains solid.


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We should have a referendum every year until No can prove their isn’t support for independence by consistently polling 60% plus.

[WeeRussell]

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If only the one in four Scottish children living in poverty got the same level of knickers in a twist.

All those long-winded condescending attempts at grandeur are somewhat let down by bizarre and totally irrelevant replies like this.