Hibs and the Irish question

[Kato]

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I was describing their rock solid sense of their own identity. Its never changed, ive got a book written in the 50s by a hearts supporting journalist, where he literally describes just that, they are 'Edina's darlings' (he even, rather patronisingly, suggests that even 'their friends' at Hibs wouldn't object to that description, such is the affectiom of the city for their favourites (im paraphrasing, but the language is very much of that ilk)

Is that it?

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[James Stephen]

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So no primary sources then

MacKay says the proposed change of colours and name were "rumours", he doesnt quote anything substantial at all. Since Swan actually installed green nets I'd take those rumours with a pinch of salt.

We didn't have a badge on our strips for decades. If never seen any random thistle associated with Hibs so would like to see where that was our badge. The crown and thistle thing came well after Harrower took over, supposedly ripped off from Real Madrid after we beat them.

Your also keenly avoiding the context of the Harp being removed from the entrance. The whole entrance was demolished and replaced. A new mosaic Harp was commissioned from a craftsman in Ireland and shipped over to Easter Road where it was hung in the boardroom where every visitor, opposing director and opposing chairman would see it. Why are you excluding this context?

You claim it was done for business reasons to expand the support. Why would he do that when it might easily displease our existing support?

Swan was a season ticket holder for years before buying a debenture when the new stand was built in 1924. He was the largest shareholder by 1932 and became Chairman in 1934. The entrances above which the Harp was came down in 1956. If was cashing in on the big crowds which the famous five brought its weird timing as the Famous Five were split up. He had 22 years to bring down the Harp. A long time to wait for that particular move to make the club more "acceptable" and a long after WW2 to cash in on post war unity. Doesn't stack up.

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Also, the whole entrance thing is a complete red herring. The reason people focus on that is because it is a very physical example. I totally accept that things can be lost in construction, but equally rebuilding an entrance doesnt necessitate changing a clubs badge. Its not thay the badge was removed, understandably, during construction,its that it disappeared completepy from any public association with the club for decades thereafter.

[James Stephen]

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Is that it?

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Is that what?

Also id love to see your primary sources, are you able to share them?

[Kato]

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Is that what?

A quote from some auld jambos book, obviously. A more self agrandising bunch you'd rarely meet.

When Hearts started they were no different to Hibs, St Bernards or Leith Athletic.

You see them as "Edinburgh's Premier Club" but ignore a strong streak of bigotry which is still present or seek to show it by presenting anti-catholicism as normal.

The reason they behave that way is because Hibernian were Catholic. That aspect of their "rock solid" identity is in reality defined by our identity. They have bigots because we were a catholic team. That's weakness and not "rock solid" at all.

Yes, Edinburgh had many strands of anti-Catholism but it wasn't normal, neither was it "respectable". Many people in Edinburgh shunned bigotry, some protestants were Hibs sympathisers simply because we played in aid of their Protestant charities.

The language around your perceived view that Harry Swan wanted Hibs catholicism "sanitised" is revealing whether its conscious or not and doesn't look all that great next to Hearts bigotry being seen portrayed "respectable".

Your initial views were...

"It was Harry Swan i think, who got rid of the harp, changed the strips and would have gone further - he wanted go the whole hog and change Hibs shirts to Arsenal shirts, not just the white sleeves but the whole red body too, according to one of Mackays Hibs history books.
I suspect the famous five, and a young male population flush with British nationalism post ww2 brought a lot of non traditional glory hunting Hibs supporters, along with slum clearances breaking up the Hibs communities around the same time."

...and they just don't stack up given the nuance and circumstance around the removal of the Harp, which you want to present in most simple and anachronistic way, the fact that we played in green throughout his tenure as well as to this day and the fact that we have always been Hibernian FC.

You also claim.


"These new fans will have brought Scotlands own, deeply ingrained anti Irish / anti Catholic attitudes to the newly sanitised Hibs of Swan."

Prove that.

Where is your evidence that Hibs brought in new Anti-catholic fans to the club because of Swan getting rid of green sleeves, unsubstantiated rumours from the 30's and the Harp being removed in 1956.

It just sounds like hogwash.

It also ignores the fact that not everyone saw life through "Scotlands deeply ingrained anti" whatever you seem to wish.

EG - My family are total heathens, neither catholic or protestant, hate bigots and have had Hibs fans within for 3 generations. I did have an episcopalian, jambo grandad but nobody liked him.

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[SRHibs]

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A quote from some auld jambos book, obviously. A more self agrandising bunch you'd rarely meet.

When Hearts started they were no different to Hibs, St Bernards or Leith Athletic.

You see them as "Edinburgh's Premier Club" but ignore a strong streak of bigotry which is still present or seek to show it by presenting anti-catholicism as normal.

The reason they behave that way is because Hibernian were Catholic. That aspect of their "rock solid" identity is in reality defined by our identity. They have bigots because we were a catholic team. That's weakness and not "rock solid" at all.

Yes, Edinburgh had many strands of anti-Catholism but it wasn't normal, neither was it "respectable". Many people in Edinburgh shunned bigotry, some protestants were Hibs sympathisers simply because we played in aid of their Protestant charities.

The language around your perceived view that Harry Swan wanted Hibs catholicism "sanitised" is revealing whether its conscious or not and doesn't look all that great next to Hearts bigotry being seen portrayed "respectable".

Your initial views were...

"It was Harry Swan i think, who got rid of the harp, changed the strips and would have gone further - he wanted go the whole hog and change Hibs shirts to Arsenal shirts, not just the white sleeves but the whole red body too, according to one of Mackays Hibs history books.
I suspect the famous five, and a young male population flush with British nationalism post ww2 brought a lot of non traditional glory hunting Hibs supporters, along with slum clearances breaking up the Hibs communities around the same time."

...and they just don't stack up given the nuance and circumstance around the removal of the Harp, which you want to present in most simple and anachronistic way, the fact that we played in green throughout his tenure as well as to this day and the fact that we have always been Hibernian FC.

You also claim.


"These new fans will have brought Scotlands own, deeply ingrained anti Irish / anti Catholic attitudes to the newly sanitised Hibs of Swan."

Prove that.

Where is your evidence that Hibs brought in new Anti-catholic fans to the club because of Swan getting rid of green sleeves, unsubstantiated rumours from the 30's and the Harp being removed in 1956.

It just sounds like hogwash.

It also ignores the fact that not everyone saw life through "Scotlands deeply ingrained anti" whatever you seem to wish.

EG - My family are total heathens, neither catholic or protestant, hate bigots and have had Hibs fans within for 3 generations. I did have an episcopalian, jambo grandad but nobody liked him.

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Unless I’m missing something, he agrees re. the bigotry. He’s just explaining their own deluded self perception.

[James Stephen]

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A quote from some auld jambos book, obviously. A more self agrandising bunch you'd rarely meet.

When Hearts started they were no different to Hibs, St Bernards or Leith Athletic.

You see them as "Edinburgh's Premier Club" but ignore a strong streak of bigotry which is still present or seek to show it by presenting anti-catholicism as normal.

The reason they behave that way is because Hibernian were Catholic. That aspect of their "rock solid" identity is in reality defined by our identity. They have bigots because we were a catholic team. That's weakness and not "rock solid" at all.

Yes, Edinburgh had many strands of anti-Catholism but it wasn't normal, neither was it "respectable". Many people in Edinburgh shunned bigotry, some protestants were Hibs sympathisers simply because we played in aid of their Protestant charities.

The language around your perceived view that Harry Swan wanted Hibs catholicism "sanitised" is revealing whether its conscious or not and doesn't look all that great next to Hearts bigotry being seen portrayed "respectable".

Your initial views were...

"It was Harry Swan i think, who got rid of the harp, changed the strips and would have gone further - he wanted go the whole hog and change Hibs shirts to Arsenal shirts, not just the white sleeves but the whole red body too, according to one of Mackays Hibs history books.
I suspect the famous five, and a young male population flush with British nationalism post ww2 brought a lot of non traditional glory hunting Hibs supporters, along with slum clearances breaking up the Hibs communities around the same time."

...and they just don't stack up given the nuance and circumstance around the removal of the Harp, which you want to present in most simple and anachronistic way, the fact that we played in green throughout his tenure as well as to this day and the fact that we have always been Hibernian FC.

You also claim.


"These new fans will have brought Scotlands own, deeply ingrained anti Irish / anti Catholic attitudes to the newly sanitised Hibs of Swan."

Prove that.

Where is your evidence that Hibs brought in new Anti-catholic fans to the club because of Swan getting rid of green sleeves, unsubstantiated rumours from the 30's and the Harp being removed in 1956.

It just sounds like hogwash.

It also ignores the fact that not everyone saw life through "Scotlands deeply ingrained anti" whatever you seem to wish.

EG - My family are total heathens, neither catholic or protestant, hate bigots and have had Hibs fans within for 3 generations. I did have an episcopalian, jambo grandad but nobody liked him.

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How can i be ignoring something im repeatedly pointing out??

If you disagree that religion or anti irish views were prevalent, or normal, thats fine, its all opinion.

Id simply point to the political partty Protestant Action, who Mick O'Rourke mentioned above, being the most sucvessful extreme political party in UK history (until the BNP in towee hamlets in the 2000s i believe) in the 1930s local elections in Edinburgh, winning around 1/3rd of the vote, at a time of anti catholic riots, priests being attacked and attempted ransackings of St Pats by angry mobs.

And it is inconcievable that as Hibs crowds doubled in the famous five era, most of those new fans wouldnt have come from non catholic section of society. Where else could they have come from? And if Edinburgh society was bigoted at large, it follows logically that a percentage (probably large) of those new fans had similar views.

Incidentally, much of their electoral success was in Leith, an area with large protestant, working class vote. Also incidentally, this was around the same time Swan emerged and got involved with Hibs. I think its unlikely he wouldnt have been aware of such social strife and attitudes among his potential customers (as he would have seen them). And yes i do have primary sources for Leithers, born and bred on easyer road, who didnt like Hibs, and instead followed Hearts for reasons of religion. And yes, also Hibs fans who were CoS members and who had surprisingly strong attitudes to Catholics. The complexities of football clubs never fails to surprise or amaze.

For everyone who says Swan didnt remove the harp, nobody has been able to say who did, or why. The fact remains it happened while Swan was owner, so it seems unlikely he had nothing to do with it, and given his track record of modernisation, i think its reasonable to assume he saw 'modernising Hibs' to appeal to more broad base of fans as reasonsble, and it seems in keeping with both his actions and his character. Im also sure he thought he was doing what was in the clubs best interests.

And these are views i have reached from looking into the histry of both clubs, as well as Edinburgh. Of course, your views are just as valid, although id suggest you have got the wrong end of the stick how you have picked up some of what ive said.

Ive enjoyed our discussion, and genuinely if you have any sources you are able to share (via PM) id love to see them, as always happy to learn more about the history of fitba in Edinburgh and Scotland.

[One Day]

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Harry from 1931 presided over Hibernian in troubled times, not just in Europe with the rise of Hitler, but also in Edinburgh.
In the pre WW2 years there was certainly anti Catholic views even from some local fascist politicians

The Protestant Action Society with the slogan, No Popery and policies to "assist" Irish Catholics to "go home"
Now this Society had 11 councillors elected to the City Council up at the Chambers.
Most of those councillors represented wards/seats in Leith..... Sad i know !.
As i read about this period and the Morningside Riots and tying it in with the Swan controversy /conspiracies.
I think Harry thought he had a dilemma .
War came and men and women returning turned their back on groups like John Cormack and his sectarian band of bigots and those that believed all their ills was the fault of "Irish Catholics". (many who had never been to Ireland !)
John Cormack could be described as an early Ian Paisley/Jack Glass ,but more dangerous.

Harry was in no way anti Catholic,I just think he thought small changes (not replacing Harp on public display) and the crown and ball badge would benefit Hibs.and gather more local support.
Changing our colours was the hardest. Even if he was mulling that decision over, it would have led to a mass exodus of fans .So i can only guess he had very good council on that particular/possible change.

Even as a wee boy, i remember men singing on the St Giles Bus "we'll hang Harry Swan wae a rope aroond his neck"
I think also among fans then was an anti masonic feeling .
Harry did appoint a Catholic priest,who was his dear friend as a councillor at the club for players who might have sought such spiritual or other help.

Harry also i understand bore the coffin at St Patrick's of one of the last Irish members of our board which i believe also had a wreath in the shape of a broken harp.
Harry was a visionary,no one doubts that. His tenure at Hibs was certainly a turbulent and fruitful one.

Finally,you can tell i am not a Hibernian historian, but sharing thoughts and views i have had over many years
GGTTH

I like reading your posts, and find your thoughts, views and insightful stories very interesting

[The Baldmans Comb]

In summary Harry Swan was the Hibs chairman and owner from 1934 until he sold out to Bill Harrower in 1963 after which he became a life director until his death in 1965.

In that nearly 30 year period the harp badge that was associated with the club and that adorned the entrance to the old main stand disappeared from use, the latter from diplapidation as the wall was falling down.

Is that all there is? . I am not having a good at you but over a 30 year period that seems to be the sum total of almost flip all. That's it in a complete nutshell, Harry Swan, Hibs and the Irish question. ??

Can I suggest you are looking completely at the wrong time period as Hibs and the Irish question is all about the late 1880's when Celtic didnae "steal all our players" as that is a complete historical myth.

Instead they all left because Hibs could no longer pay them the cash back handers (laughingly called expenses) as the club was split in two between the religious founders who were against the violence advocated by the younger club members over the question of Irish Home rule as being proposed by England during their period of colonial occupation of Ireland.

Hibs as a result were torn to pieces with resignations of all the clubs commitee men and went bankrupt accenuated by internal theft by the club secretary who ran off to Canada with the clubs money.

As a result there was no Hibs club in existence for nearly two years and the club that was then resurrected from the ashes was a completely different entity free from the religious and Irish political baggage of two years previously.

As with Rangers old and new it is completely fair to argue that Hibs were formed in 1887 and not 1875 as that original club died after been torn apart by Irish church and political strife.

Harry Swan (one of Hibs finest owners) is a tiny insignificant footnote in comparison.

[superfurryhibby]

I would recommend reading the discussion on here. It dispels the myths around Harry Swan, anti catholicism, the removal of the harp above the old entrance to the main stand.

https://foot.ie/threads/11886-Hibern...History/page2?

[superfurryhibby]

Lugton says this (p165, the Making of Hibernian, vol 3)

“Myths about Swan’s chairmanship which were stirred up by elements from outside Hibernian, but even today some of these myths survive amongst Hibs supporters”

I’m going to paraphrase now

Swan was a passionate Hibs fan before he was first elected to the board, in 1931 ( he would leave the board, before returning as chairman in 1933).

Swan appointed his close friend Monsignor Miley as club chaplain on his assumption of the chairmanship.

Far from changing the colours, he prompted the addition of the white sleeves.

Although the rise of crowds post ww2 saw the removal of priests season tickets, they were routinely provided with complimentary tickets, a tradition that outlasted Swan’s ownership of the club and continued into the 1960’s.

The Harp was in situ for 25 years after Swan became chairman. The harp mosaic that was commissioned ( from Irish craftsmen) and hung in the club boardroom was gifted to Swan’s wife on his death)

Swan retained some of the old Irish directors at Hibs. For example, Owen Brannigan served Hibs for 65 years, as a player then official, up until his death in 1945.

You mention John R McKay. The reference he makes to Swan’s tenure is brief and pretty anecdotal. He says (p120)

“ traditional supporters did not find him to their liking and felt somewhat alienated by a number of measures during his chairmanship- the requirement that priests apply for tickets to ensure their traditional free entry to Easter Road and the subsequent removal of the harp from above the main entrance to the ground, as well as the rumoured intention to change the name and the colour of the club to widen it’s appeal”

Basically, McKay is repeating without any substance a myth, with elements that have been refuted.

[vercol36]

I think it’s a particularly Scottish thing to still associate Ireland with Catholicism and the IRA. I’m not religious and am a dedicated pacifist, and to me the modern Ireland speaks to progressive society, strong economy, buoyant middle class (how many countries can still say that?), wealth, friendliness, an affinity for sport and the outdoors and a deep sense of community, as embodied by GAA clubs and local networks. If that’s not something we can be proud of being associated with, then I don’t know what is.

I know a few Hibs fans who do their utmost to denigrate the Irish and anything from Ireland, in a sort of determination to disassociate from the seeming ‘seedy’ side of Irishness. It’s a real shame and shows an ignorance, in my opinion.

[JimBHibees]

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I would recommend reading the discussion on here. It dispels the myths around Harry Swan, anti catholicism, the removal of the harp above the old entrance to the main stand.

https://foot.ie/threads/11886-Hibern...History/page2?

Really interesting read that. Completely ridicules some of the Celtic nonsense about our great club.

[superfurryhibby]

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Really interesting read that. Completely ridicules some of the Celtic nonsense about our great club.

Yes, it basically shows how flawed any of the Swan anti Irish nonsense is.

It was discussed on this thread, in some detail back in 2013.

https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?255202-Harry-Swan

[JimBHibees]

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Yes, it basically shows how flawed any of the Swan anti Irish nonsense is.

It was discussed on this thread, in some detail back in 2013.

https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?255202-Harry-Swan

Yes vaguely remember there was a previous thread on here about it.

[James Stephen]

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Yes, it basically shows how flawed any of the Swan anti Irish nonsense is.

It was discussed on this thread, in some detail back in 2013.

https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?255202-Harry-Swan

Great read that, cheers for posting.

[BILLYHIBS]

[Mick O'Rourke]

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I like reading your posts, and find your thoughts, views and insightful stories very interesting

Thanks
Sometimes i write from the heart and not the head.

But try and be as factual as i understand the era
My family go back tol Hibs foundation. My Granny Bridget (Flynn)Devlin hailed from the Coogate.
My Grandad James Devlin family hailed from a close in The Canongate. So their is my primary interest.


Harry Swan it must be said presided over our clubs finest moments and great top class teams on the park.
That should mean a lot

I was born the year we last won the League. So i take full responsibilty for that

As for Harry
He was "hated" by an anti masonic section of the support and after the Harp went "missing" and about the Tricolour debacle over at Celtic Park,even more.
Incidents within a few years of each other and Harry caught in the middle
I always believed a worker at the demolition of the wall did a Johnny Cash with the Harp and Harry was a patsy and Public Enemy No 1 among Celtic fans who wrongly blamed Harry over the Tricolour fiasco.


Some fans did wish and talk of disassociating/cleansing the club from its Catholic Irish roots
(Fifth columnists from the dark side,maybe !)

Sorry, you cannot deny or dismiss your family tree,can you?
Its there for all time.
Hibernian FC are part of late 19th century Edinburgh old town social and economic history.


They came from Little Ireland,
in Scotlands capital,
and took the name Hibernian,
the most Irish name of all.



Erin go Bragh
Alba go Bragh

[Kato]

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How can i be ignoring something im repeatedly pointing out??

If you disagree that religion or anti irish views were prevalent, or normal, thats fine, its all opinion.

I recognise the prevelance above but refuse to label the views "normal".

Id simply point to the political partty Protestant Action, who Mick O'Rourke mentioned above, being the most sucvessful extreme political party in UK history (until the BNP in towee hamlets in the 2000s i believe) in the 1930s local elections in Edinburgh, winning around 1/3rd of the vote, at a time of anti catholic riots, priests being attacked and attempted ransackings of St Pats by angry mobs.

--
1936, Hibernian board room.

Swan: I've noticed all these new medieval minded bigots around and I'm anxious to modernise the club to attract them to Hibs so some things are going to have to change.

Director: What's going to happen, boss? Change the name? Change the colours?

Swan: Don't say that, you'll start rumours. No, I was thinking we get green goal nets, appoint my Catholic pal Monsignor Thomas Miley as club chaplin and having white sleeves like Austria and Aresenal as they look beautiful. Then we wait 20 years until the entrances are falling down and we replace them thus removing the harp mosaic which we will replace with a new one in the boardroom.

Director: Sounds great, boss , that oughta attract these new bigots which is just what we need to be modern.
--

Smells like single fish to me.

Reality is more like Swan built a great, big, blooming successful team, still playing in green, still called Hibernian and crowds came because in general, people aren't as bigoted as you like to portray.

Bye. Am out.

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[One Day]

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Thanks
Sometimes i write from the heart and not the head.

But try and be as factual as i understand the era
My family go back tol Hibs foundation. My Granny Bridget (Flynn)Devlin hailed from the Coogate.
My Grandad James Devlin family hailed from a close in The Canongate. So their is my primary interest.


Harry Swan it must be said presided over our clubs finest moments and great top class teams on the park.
That should mean a lot

I was born the year we last won the League. So i take full responsibilty for that

As for Harry
He was "hated" by an anti masonic section of the support and after the Harp went "missing" and about the Tricolour debacle over at Celtic Park,even more.
Incidents within a few years of each other and Harry caught in the middle
I always believed a worker at the demolition of the wall did a Johnny Cash with the Harp and Harry was a patsy and Public Enemy No 1 among Celtic fans who wrongly blamed Harry over the Tricolour fiasco.


Some fans did wish and talk of disassociating/cleansing the club from its Catholic Irish roots
(Fifth columnists from the dark side,maybe !)

Sorry, you cannot deny or dismiss your family tree,can you?
Its their for all time.
Hibernian FC are part of late 19th century Edinburgh old town social and economic history.


They came from Little Ireland,
in Scotlands capital,
and took the name Hibernian,
the most Irish name of all.



Erin go Bragh
Alba go Bragh

Your welcome. I have Irish roots on both sides of my family too. My late Mother even receives a mention in one of Alan Lugtons books as "coming from Little Ireland stock"

[oldbutdim]

Thought this might be of interest to some.................


Sir/

I refer to your article ‘Fly the Flag’ published on 14th January 2004 in relation to Harry Swan chairman of Hibernian FC and his supposed attempt to ‘eradicate all Irish references and links to the Edinburgh club’, specifically the old harp mosaic’s which adorned the main South entrance.

In fact ’The Harp’ remained in place for the first 22 years of Mr Swan’s chairmanship until ground reconstruction and deterioritation in the mid 1950’s meant the entrance had to be demolished. In its place an expensive new mosaic harp was commissioned from craftsman in Ireland and shipped over to Easter Road where it hung in the boardroom. When Harry Swan died it was gifted to his widow by the club.

Interestingly Mr Swan had also appointed his very close friend, the catholic priest Monsignor Miley as ‘players councillor’ the first and very forward looking post in Scottish football. Furthermore on the death of his advisor and fellow director Owen Brannigan who was ‘the last of the Auld Irish’, Mr Swan carried the Hibernian wreath in the form of a traditional broken harp to the Requiem Mass at St Partricks Cathedral in Edinburgh.

I would also like to point out in relation to the ‘Flag flutter’ that it was originally the Glasgow Magistrates not Mr Swan who advocated the ‘flag ban’, that it was the Referee’s Committee who upheld that decision (incidentally a committee that was chaired by Sir Robert Kelly not Mr Swan) and that it was George Graham the secretary of the SFA (the undoubted Jim Farry or Ernie Walker of his day) who had overall responsibility for implementing the recommendations of the Glasgow Magistrates and the Referee’s Committee.

Ultimately, while I would agree that the SFA adopted a very heavy handed and extremely confrontational approach to Celtic FC during the ‘Flag flutter’ of 1952 , I would suggest that to imply that Mr Swan had some heinous anti Irish agenda is both unfair and highly inaccurate.

Yours faithfully,

[Pagan Hibernia]

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In summary Harry Swan was the Hibs chairman and owner from 1934 until he sold out to Bill Harrower in 1963 after which he became a life director until his death in 1965.

In that nearly 30 year period the harp badge that was associated with the club and that adorned the entrance to the old main stand disappeared from use, the latter from diplapidation as the wall was falling down.

Is that all there is? . I am not having a good at you but over a 30 year period that seems to be the sum total of almost flip all. That's it in a complete nutshell, Harry Swan, Hibs and the Irish question. ??

Can I suggest you are looking completely at the wrong time period as Hibs and the Irish question is all about the late 1880's when Celtic didnae "steal all our players" as that is a complete historical myth.

Instead they all left because Hibs could no longer pay them the cash back handers (laughingly called expenses) as the club was split in two between the religious founders who were against the violence advocated by the younger club members over the question of Irish Home rule as being proposed by England during their period of colonial occupation of Ireland.

Hibs as a result were torn to pieces with resignations of all the clubs commitee men and went bankrupt accenuated by internal theft by the club secretary who ran off to Canada with the clubs money.

As a result there was no Hibs club in existence for nearly two years and the club that was then resurrected from the ashes was a completely different entity free from the religious and Irish political baggage of two years previously.

As with Rangers old and new it is completely fair to argue that Hibs were formed in 1887 and not 1875 as that original club died after been torn apart by Irish church and political strife.

Harry Swan (one of Hibs finest owners) is a tiny insignificant footnote in comparison.

provocative!

[Clarence]

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I imagine they would say what most non-catholic Hibs fans say, they’re glad that this rubbish has very little traction with the Edinburgh clubs. That’s despite the best efforts of a minority few. And of course the two cheeks who can’t understand what it means not to have a religious divide.

I’ve not heard Hibs fans sing anti Protestant songs. Anti monarchy maybe but the two should not be conflated.

[DIXIHIBS]

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I’ve not heard Hibs fans sing anti Protestant songs. Anti monarchy maybe but the two should not be conflated.

Anti orange songs not anti protestant songs.

[Mick O'Rourke]

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Anti orange songs not anti protestant songs.

I never ever heard songs derogatory to Protestants at Easter Road.


Laugh when i think back to the 60s,though
When the govan mob arrived we were Fenian bees

Celtic could hardly call us Orange bees
So they opted for Masonic bees instead

Never Hi bees

One that comes to mind that would be sung when oldco came a calling to the Holy Ground.
Wound them right up and encouraged them to throw their screwtop beer bottles with beer still inside
Or sometimes urine
Talking grown and middle aged men here,not teenagers.

Anyway,just for historical and educational purposes you understand, the little ditty that got the hun cross went something like (Tune; Road to the Isles)

It was at the Glasgow Cross, where King Billy lost his horse
And the eagle on his banner flew away
The were eating Paris buns,when they heard the Fenian guns
And the dirty Orange b��s ran away!

They then got unusually upset,and if we won,they smashed every shop window that wasn't boarded up on their way up Easter Road.

Barbarians then................

[The Modfather]

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Anti orange songs not anti protestant songs.

In the context of Scottish football fans is there a nuanced difference between orange and Protestant?

[Pagan Hibernia]

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In the context of Scottish football fans is there a nuanced difference between orange and Protestant?

I’d certainly like to think so, or Hibs fans that sing such songs are abusing thousands of their fellow hibbys

[Mick O'Rourke]

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I’d certainly like to think so, or Hibs fans that sing such songs are abusing thousands of their fellow hibbys

Are thousands of Hibs fans really Protestant?
If so,what are they protesting against ?
My point is in my lifetime i have known friends/ people that when asked which religion they belonged to,the answer is Protestant. Yet most i i knew were never baptised/christened in the Kirk
Also,State schools in Scotland are described by some as "Proddy Schools"
They are not. Children of all religions and none attend State Schools

Just thinking aloud !

Lapsed Atheist

[Pagan Hibernia]

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Are thousands of Hibs fans really Protestant?
If so,what are they protesting against ?
My point is in my lifetime i have had friends and known many people that when asked which religion they belonged to,the answer is Protestant. Yet most i i knew were never baptised/christened in the Kirk

Now all Catholics i know were baptised in the Catholic ⛪

Just thinking aloud !

you’re probably right.

I was raised by a Protestant family in Ireland but have long since renounced Christianity

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

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In the context of Scottish football fans is there a nuanced difference between orange and Protestant?

Yes, obviously. I’d imagine most Aberdeen fans for example are from Protestant families


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[hibsbollah]

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Thanks
Sometimes i write from the heart and not the head.

But try and be as factual as i understand the era
My family go back tol Hibs foundation. My Granny Bridget (Flynn)Devlin hailed from the Coogate.
My Grandad James Devlin family hailed from a close in The Canongate. So their is my primary interest.


Harry Swan it must be said presided over our clubs finest moments and great top class teams on the park.
That should mean a lot

I was born the year we last won the League. So i take full responsibilty for that

As for Harry
He was "hated" by an anti masonic section of the support and after the Harp went "missing" and about the Tricolour debacle over at Celtic Park,even more.
Incidents within a few years of each other and Harry caught in the middle
I always believed a worker at the demolition of the wall did a Johnny Cash with the Harp and Harry was a patsy and Public Enemy No 1 among Celtic fans who wrongly blamed Harry over the Tricolour fiasco.


Some fans did wish and talk of disassociating/cleansing the club from its Catholic Irish roots
(Fifth columnists from the dark side,maybe !)

Sorry, you cannot deny or dismiss your family tree,can you?
Its there for all time.
Hibernian FC are part of late 19th century Edinburgh old town social and economic history.


They came from Little Ireland,
in Scotlands capital,
and took the name Hibernian,
the most Irish name of all.



Erin go Bragh
Alba go Bragh

I agree with Oneday, your posts are full of emotion and rich storytelling and the board is a better place for them