The Trans Rights Debate

[James310]

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You asked me a here and now question, and I gave you a here and now answer, which you don't seem to be disagreeing with.

You're now asking me a different, hypothetical question on self-certification in a world where the GRR became law. In response, I'd support that legislation, as many transgender people presently struggle to have their gender legally recognised. They are a small, vulnerable group of people who are regularly discriminated against.

Self-certification of gender has been in operation in Belgium, Denmark, Iceland, Ireland, Norway, Malta, Luxembourg, etc, etc and it appears to be operating effectively. Why would it be any different in Scotland?

So today you don't believe a man is a woman if they say they are, but if the law changed tomorrow and the GRA was enacted you would believe a man is a woman because they said they are? Is that a fair summary of your position?

[ronaldo7]

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I don't particularly care for India Whilloughby, but I think that's harsh.

https://twitter.com/IndiaWilloughby/...20127270465537

[WeeRussell]

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https://twitter.com/IndiaWilloughby/...20127270465537

Good on her.

[archie]

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https://twitter.com/IndiaWilloughby/...20127270465537

This India Willoughby? https://www.womanandhome.com/life/ne...mments-371025/

[ronaldo7]

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This India Willoughby? https://www.womanandhome.com/life/ne...mments-371025/

Try and stay on the subject matter or you might find our posts deleted.

[James310]

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This India Willoughby? https://www.womanandhome.com/life/ne...mments-371025/

When asked her opinion on the situation, India exclaimed, "Thank God for Nigel Farage! I’ll say it. The fact the French are escorting them over is awful. We’ve got Brexit and we’re leaving the EU."

[ronaldo7]

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When asked her opinion on the situation, India exclaimed, "Thank God for Nigel Farage! I’ll say it. The fact the French are escorting them over is awful. We’ve got Brexit and we’re leaving the EU."

What's this got to do with the thread subject?

[AugustaHibs]

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Did you read that in the Daily Mail or Express?

Also interesting how you, those facsist rags and tory mouthpieces like the BBC always refer to Scotland's first minister by her surname v nice wee Rishi or Sir Keir.

How me?

sunak and starmer are both ****. I’ve only ever voted for SNP and voted yes in 2014.

The last few years have opened my eyes and I don’t really support any political party.

All useless self obsessed *****.

[James310]

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What's this got to do with the thread subject?

We were talking about India Willoughby a trans woman who was on QT last night. You even posted one of her tweets. Happy to move on.

[archie]

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Try and stay on the subject matter or you might find our posts deleted.

Don't you think it's material highlight views of someone you are bigging up?

[ronaldo7]

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We were talking about India Willoughby a trans woman who was on QT last night. You even posted one of her tweets. Happy to move on.

My post was of her speaking about her time on QT regarding the thread issue. Nothing to do with whatever else she's been up to. If you want to post it on the Brexit thread feel free.

[ronaldo7]

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Don't you think it's material highlight views of someone you are bigging up?

[Kato]

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When asked her opinion on the situation, India exclaimed, "Thank God for Nigel Farage! I’ll say it. The fact the French are escorting them over is awful. We’ve got Brexit and we’re leaving the EU."

Wow, it's almost like humans have a broad range of opinions.

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[Hibrandenburg]

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It's been the full gamut today. Anyone raising questions is a racist, homophobe, transphobe, unionist, anti-Irish, living in the 1970s, emotional, blustering and now a Trumpist. Any I've missed?

Fundamentalist religious nutter?

[The Harp Awakes]

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https://twitter.com/IndiaWilloughby/...20127270465537

Pleased to hear.

I thought she conducted herself admirably on QT and clearly she is a very strong person. Some of the discussion and contributions were toxic and she showed great restraint.

[James310]

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Wow, it's almost like humans have a broad range of opinions.

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Couldn't agree more, it's dangerous to label them as bigots, homophobic, transphobic etc just because they do. Great point.

[archie]

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Wow, it's almost like humans have a broad range of opinions.

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Or that you're prepared to defend the indefensible.

[archie]

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Fundamentalist religious nutter?

I've seen bigot and dinosaur too

[ronaldo7]

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Pleased to hear.

I thought she conducted herself admirably on QT and clearly she is a very strong person. Some of the discussion and contributions were toxic and she showed great restraint.

Someone from the QT Audience last night. Posted without comment.

AS a 29-year-old, straight man brought up on the west coast of Scotland without any transgender friends, I would never claim to be the most enlightened trans ally. However, as a member of the "woke" generation, I know the smell of bigotry.

I was among 150 audience members packed into Strathclyde University for the filming of BBC Question Time on February 2. Considering the current media storm on the Gender Recognition Act (GRA), coupled with the fact that the panel featured trans broadcaster India Willoughby and the "free-speech" journalist Ella Whelan of Spiked, there was a recognition among the audience that the subject would be one of the main talking points.

How the conversation went
The first question lasted about 10 minutes before we moved on to the inevitable subject of the GRA, transgender women and the Scottish Prison Service. Framed through the lens of "should safeguarding for women’s only spaces be reviewed?", the debate began with a measured, if predictable, response from the SNP’s Jenny Gilruth on the political machinations of the UK Government’s decision to block the legislation.

India Willoughby was then invited to respond to the question. Her articulate response featured statistics about predatory transgender people, the procedures in the Scottish prison system and the emotional impact that this debate has had on her personally. During her response, there was a notable shift in body language from Ella Whelan and many of the older men and women in the audience. Eye-rolling, smirking and audible sighs laid the foundation for what, for the next 25 minutes, became a poisonous atmosphere.

Ella Whelan followed, commencing into a nasty diatribe about biological sex and how women are the victims among all of this. This evoked a back-and-forth between the two panellists, with Whelan becoming increasingly condescending in her tone and body language, using the issue of this prisoner to suggest that trans people are "pretending they’re something they’re not".

How the audience reacted
Willoughby’s attempts to bring some reason into the debate were met with mocking shouts across the panel from Whelan and rapturous applause and hoots from a number of audience members. Bruce opened up the subject to the audience where Whelan’s supporters were represented in one particularly odious exchange between Willoughby and an older woman who had the contempt to look her directly in the eye and effectively state "you are still a man".

I couldn’t believe that this woman could morally justify such disdain to another human being, or that the panel chair simply allowed it to go unchallenged. All this happened among the continuous backing from particular gammon-coloured audience members.

In the aftermath of the filming, Willoughby referred on Twitter to the experience using the term "lynch mob" which I felt wasn’t far from the truth. In my own group chat, I could only define the atmosphere through comparison. If it had been an ethnic minority or gay person sitting in Willoughby’s chair, you would have been genuinely lost for words. I couldn’t speak, but I could certainly smell bigotry in the room.

[archie]

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Someone from the QT Audience last night.

AS a 29-year-old, straight man brought up on the west coast of Scotland without any transgender friends, I would never claim to be the most enlightened trans ally. However, as a member of the "woke" generation, I know the smell of bigotry.

I was among 150 audience members packed into Strathclyde University for the filming of BBC Question Time on February 2. Considering the current media storm on the Gender Recognition Act (GRA), coupled with the fact that the panel featured trans broadcaster India Willoughby and the "free-speech" journalist Ella Whelan of Spiked, there was a recognition among the audience that the subject would be one of the main talking points.

How the conversation went
The first question lasted about 10 minutes before we moved on to the inevitable subject of the GRA, transgender women and the Scottish Prison Service. Framed through the lens of "should safeguarding for women’s only spaces be reviewed?", the debate began with a measured, if predictable, response from the SNP’s Jenny Gilruth on the political machinations of the UK Government’s decision to block the legislation.

India Willoughby was then invited to respond to the question. Her articulate response featured statistics about predatory transgender people, the procedures in the Scottish prison system and the emotional impact that this debate has had on her personally. During her response, there was a notable shift in body language from Ella Whelan and many of the older men and women in the audience. Eye-rolling, smirking and audible sighs laid the foundation for what, for the next 25 minutes, became a poisonous atmosphere.

Ella Whelan followed, commencing into a nasty diatribe about biological sex and how women are the victims among all of this. This evoked a back-and-forth between the two panellists, with Whelan becoming increasingly condescending in her tone and body language, using the issue of this prisoner to suggest that trans people are "pretending they’re something they’re not".

How the audience reacted
Willoughby’s attempts to bring some reason into the debate were met with mocking shouts across the panel from Whelan and rapturous applause and hoots from a number of audience members. Bruce opened up the subject to the audience where Whelan’s supporters were represented in one particularly odious exchange between Willoughby and an older woman who had the contempt to look her directly in the eye and effectively state "you are still a man".

I couldn’t believe that this woman could morally justify such disdain to another human being, or that the panel chair simply allowed it to go unchallenged. All this happened among the continuous backing from particular gammon-coloured audience members.

In the aftermath of the filming, Willoughby referred on Twitter to the experience using the term "lynch mob" which I felt wasn’t far from the truth. In my own group chat, I could only define the atmosphere through comparison. If it had been an ethnic minority or gay person sitting in Willoughby’s chair, you would have been genuinely lost for words. I couldn’t speak, but I could certainly smell bigotry in the room.

Note the loaded language - the trans activist 'articulate' the woman - 'nasty'. Says it all really.

[ronaldo7]

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Note the loaded language - the trans activist 'articulate' the woman - 'nasty'. Says it all really.

Possibly what the guy felt at the time.

[Kato]

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Couldn't agree more, it's dangerous to label them as bigots, homophobic, transphobic etc just because they do. Great point.

I'll point out here that I haven't called anybody on here any of those things on this issue.

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[Kato]

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Or that you're prepared to defend the indefensible.

Sorry, man . You've lost me there.

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[WeeRussell]

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I've seen bigot and dinosaur too

🤚 - I said I had received messages (from friends) informing me that there was someone offering comments befitting of those words, on QT last night. It certainly wasn’t for someone simply “asking questions”.

Be interested to know why that is an issue for you, if it is that post you refer to?

I’d hate to think you were making out that those debating with you are calling you or anyone else on here certain terms by plucking various words used in different posts, completely out of context.

[James310]

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Possibly what the guy felt at the time.

If you were in the audience last night and someone asked you the question about is the rapist a man or a woman and you gave the same answer that you are not sure as you need more information like medical evidence or are they taking hormones etc that would be considered a transphobic response as you are questioning the gender of someone who identifies as a woman.

[archie]

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🤚 - I said I had received messages (from friends) informing me that there was someone offering comments befitting of those words, on QT last night. It certainly wasn’t for someone simply “asking questions”.

Be interested to know why that is an issue for you, if it is that post you refer to?

I’d hate to think you were making out that those debating with you are calling you or anyone else on here certain terms by plucking various words used in different posts, completely out of context.

I'm not taking it personally. There's been a lot of these type of comments over the last few days. I'd prefer people engaged with the issues rather than the name calling, but there you go.

[He's here!]

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I fell asleep before QT last night - will probably catch the later version in a few days. I did wake up to a couple of messages suggesting there had been the token shouty, bigoted dinosaur on the panel though. And just viewing a couple of 'highlights' now.

Must say I am utterly shocked to learn which of our regular HG posters thought her performance was brilliant. As long as someone's putting "Sturgeon" in her place though eh.

Which panel members were the token shouty, bigoted dinosaurs? The focus of the argument was the absurdity of the SNP panel member being unable to answer whether Bryson is a man or a woman, with the new 'gender' of 'rapist' invented by Sturgeon earlier in the day being parroted. Just nuts - and calling it out as such is not bigoted.

[The Harp Awakes]

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So today you don't believe a man is a woman if they say they are, but if the law changed tomorrow and the GRA was enacted you would believe a man is a woman because they said they are? Is that a fair summary of your position?

My views are based on legal fact. If the law changed to allow gender self-certification, my view on that person's gender could change.

Is that ok with you?

[James310]

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My views are based on legal fact. If the law changed to allow gender self-certification, my view on that person's gender could change.

Is that ok with you?

That's ok with me. I do find it slightly confusing you can support one position on say a Monday that requires medical diagnosis and the taking of hormones etc but on the Tuesday you can completely oppose the position you had on Monday and champion the the very removal of the things you needed to make your decision the very day before, now you seemingly don't need all that evidence that was important only the day before.

And as a SNP supporter you would also be breaking their own code of conduct by questioning the gender of someone that says they are a woman and asking for evidence etc.

It is tying people in knots.

[He's here!]

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What's this got to do with the thread subject?

Uh huh, because nobody on here ever digs up something unrelated to a thread to undermine a comment they don't agree with.