The Trans Rights Debate

[James310]

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Does the EA have primacy on the bill?

Well that's the point of the S35, it should have but it looks like it strays into areas that impact the EA. The courts will decide.

[ronaldo7]

If the EA has primacy on the face of the bill, how can anyone currently with a GRC get into women's spaces if exemptions are in place?

[Bristolhibby]

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You'd think so but some providers are going by the Haldene. You'd think a female refuge would be clearly protected as female only.

What about the trans women who are victims of rape and need refuge from an abusive partner?

J

[Stairway 2 7]

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Is this not where the equality commission comes in with guidance?

Yes they give guidance. Each provider chooses how to interpret it and the gra themselves. It's muddy and businesses aren't lawyers so with Haldene they will often say trans women are women.

You'd think a clear cut case would be women's refuges or rape crisis. It seems most places are going with Haldene that trans women are literally women. You can understand the confusion companies face when even the government are confused over prisons

[Stairway 2 7]

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What about the trans women who are victims of rape and need refuge from an abusive partner?

J

They should be given refuge the same as men need it. That should not be where women are. If there was a need I'd be all for a trans refuge. The sad fact is its men who sexualy assault, so women need safe female only spaces when they are at their most vulnerable

[CropleyWasGod]

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If the EA has primacy on the face of the bill, how can anyone currently with a GRC get into women's spaces if exemptions are in place?

They can, as long as the owners or users of that space don't object.

[ronaldo7]

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They can, as long as the owners or users of that space don't object.

So owners can have policies under the EA, which is on the face of the GRR bill to effectively keep people with a GRC out of women's spaces. Cheers.

[Just Alf]

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Does the EA have primacy on the bill?

It does, one of the (Labour?) amendments voted in to enable the bill get passed in the parliamentary vote was to confirm the EA has primacy.

It's why many think the UK Government (Tories ) are simply playing politics... if the new act already states EA has primacy in any unclear situation what's the actual issue with the new legislation? .... unless you.just don't like the whole idea of course.

[CropleyWasGod]

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So owners can have policies under the EA, which is on the face of the GRR bill to effectively keep people with a GRC out of women's spaces. Cheers.

The exact wording was posted here about 50 pages back (possibly by me ).

[ronaldo7]

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The exact wording was posted here about 50 pages back (possibly by me ).

Sorry G.

Must have missed it. I've only been stepping in and out of this thread, but when I heard the FM speak about it today, I wanted to confirm. 😂

[Stairway 2 7]

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So owners can have policies under the EA, which is on the face of the GRR bill to effectively keep people with a GRC out of women's spaces. Cheers.

That's good on paper but when prisons, rape crisis and refuges are chosing to mix, you can see most are going with Haldene.

[147lothian]

Here is an example someone who transitioned as a teen then realized it was a mistake in California, the reason it is relevant is in light of the de-transitioner's who are currently bringing law suits against the Tavistock as there is no questions being asked about the trans teen social contagion. Teenagers can't possibly know the long term consequences of what they are doing to their bodies.

[McSwanky]

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Here is an example someone who transitioned as a teen then realized it was a mistake in California, the reason it is relevant is in light of the de-transitioner's who are currently bringing law suits against the Tavistock as there is no questions being asked about the trans teen social contagion. Teenagers can't possibly know the long term consequences of what they are doing to their bodies.

I'm no expert, but is the legislation not partly to stop this sort of thing happening?

So you are officially a man, but want to be a woman? Now you can be without having to undergo invasive surgery. Then later you realise you made a mistake, or indeed you're at a point in your life where you feel more comfortable 'transitioning back'? That's fine as well.

Like I say, I'm not anywhere near as close to the legislation as some clearly are on here, but to me the general gist of the legislation is in good faith.

I have school age kids, and there are a a significant number of kids at their schools who identify as a gender different to the one they were born with. And as far as I can see, they're completely accepted by their peers. That's massive progress from even 10 years ago. Maybe some need to stop quoting extreme examples to make a point, learn from the kids and accept that the world is changing.

I think we can all agree that the legislation isn't perfect, but legislation rarely is. And surely if there is a rise in violent crime against women in e.g. prisons, then the book will be swiftly opened and amended?

I'll probably be shouted down as being naive or anti-women, but I wish we didn't base all arguments around the worst case scenarios.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://archive.ph/o4ELb

Isla Bryson ‘almost certainly’ masquerading as trans, says Sturgeon

[He's here!]

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https://archive.ph/o4ELb

Isla Bryson ‘almost certainly’ masquerading as trans, says Sturgeon

You know it's bad for Sturgeon when she gets made to look utterly daft by Douglas Ross of all people. Insisting that Bryson is neither man nor woman, just 'a rapist'...what the **** is she on about?! I almost felt pity for her stooge (Jenny Gilruth) on Question Time just now having to parrot the same line. Needless to say she was shot down in flames by the excellent Ella Whelan - and all but laughed off the panel by the studio audience.

[James310]

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You know it's bad for Sturgeon when she gets made to look utterly daft by Douglas Ross of all people. Insisting that Bryson is neither man nor woman, just 'a rapist'...what the **** is she on about?! I almost felt pity for her stooge (Jenny Gilruth) on Question Time just now having to parrot the same line. Needless to say she was shot down in flames by the excellent Ella Whelan - and all but laughed off the panel by the studio audience.

Was Jenny Gilruth wearing Sturgeons Hibs away outfit? Looked very similar.

[archie]

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It does, one of the (Labour?) amendments voted in to enable the bill get passed in the parliamentary vote was to confirm the EA has primacy.

It's why many think the UK Government (Tories ) are simply playing politics... if the new act already states EA has primacy in any unclear situation what's the actual issue with the new legislation? .... unless you.just don't like the whole idea of course.

There's a real legal question as to whether simply saying that makes any difference.

[StevieC]

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“excellent Ella Whelan”

A nastier piece of work I’ve not seen on Question Time for a while. Pretty much said we should bring our children up properly so they don’t become trans/gay! 😮

Apart from being a nasty piece of work, also very rude and talking over others when it was their turn to reply.

Excellent you say? 🤔

[Santa Cruz]

Felt for India Willoughby on Question Time, it was like she was a lone voice. The woman in the audience who wasn't even having it with trans woman who had fully medically transitioned using female toilets was away with it, totally ignorant. How would she even be able to tell.

[The Harp Awakes]

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You know it's bad for Sturgeon when she gets made to look utterly daft by Douglas Ross of all people. Insisting that Bryson is neither man nor woman, just 'a rapist'...what the **** is she on about?! I almost felt pity for her stooge (Jenny Gilruth) on Question Time just now having to parrot the same line. Needless to say she was shot down in flames by the excellent Ella Whelan - and all but laughed off the panel by the studio audience.

She spoke like a 1970s homophobe. A real nasty piece of work. And you say excellent

[147lothian]

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There's a real legal question as to whether simply saying that makes any difference.

Jenny Gilruth kept calling Adam Graham AKA Isly Bryson "The Individual" look at her response when asked if "The Individual" is a man or a woman, priceless.

[Ozyhibby]

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Here is an example someone who transitioned as a teen then realized it was a mistake in California, the reason it is relevant is in light of the de-transitioner's who are currently bringing law suits against the Tavistock as there is no questions being asked about the trans teen social contagion. Teenagers can't possibly know the long term consequences of what they are doing to their bodies.

‘Fast track surgery’? Shouldn’t be a problem in the UK then.


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[Crunchie]

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A nastier piece of work I’ve not seen on Question Time for a while. Pretty much said we should bring our children up properly so they don’t become trans/gay! 😮

Apart from being a nasty piece of work, also very rude and talking over others when it was their turn to reply.

Excellent you say? 🤔

The majority of the audience and I'd suggest the wider population would disagree with you. Nasty you say?

[James310]

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Jenny Gilruth kept calling Adam Graham AKA Isly Bryson "The Individual" look at her response when asked if "The Individual" is a man or a woman, priceless.

Why won't she answer if 'The Individual" is man or a woman? If the answer is because they don't have enough information on them as suggested then can anyone explain how under self ID people get this information required to work out if someone is legitimate or not?

This is what happens when an ideology comes crashing into the real world. They need to go back and work through some of these issues again and come up with an answer that is perhaps a compromise that meets the majority of concerns on both sides.

[McSwanky]

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The majority of the audience and I'd suggest the wider population would disagree with you. Nasty you say?

It's base level debate, that is. Using an extreme example to demand a yes/no answer. If people stop to think for just a few seconds, they'll see that the wool is being pulled over their eyes by bigots likes her. The debate is way more complex than this.

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[He's here!]

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Why won't she answer if 'The Individual" is man or a woman? If the answer is because they don't have enough information on them as suggested then can anyone explain how under self ID people get this information required to work out if someone is legitimate or not?

This is what happens when an ideology comes crashing into the real world. They need to go back and work through some of these issues again and come up with an answer that is perhaps a compromise that meets the majority of concerns on both sides.

Indeed. When the majority of a Glasgow Question Time audience are applauding a Conservative MP calling for a rethink on the legislation you know Sturgeon has got something wrong.

[He's here!]

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It's base level debate, that is. Using an extreme example to demand a yes/no answer. If people stop to think for just a few seconds, they'll see that the wool is being pulled over their eyes by bigots likes her. The debate is way more complex than this.

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What was 'bigoted' about highlighting the lunacy of being unable to define whether Bryson is a man or a woman? She was only articulating majority public opinion.

[He's here!]

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Felt for India Willoughby on Question Time, it was like she was a lone voice. The woman in the audience who wasn't even having it with trans woman who had fully medically transitioned using female toilets was away with it, totally ignorant. How would she even be able to tell.

The reason for the tumbleweed following most of Willoughby's comments was that she kept trying to frame the debate around Bryson/prisons and the SG legislation as anti-trans when for the vast majority that's not the case. The erosion of women's rights - and indeed the erosion of 'woman' as a biological concept - is what concerns most.

[ronaldo7]

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Was Jenny Gilruth wearing Sturgeons Hibs away outfit? Looked very similar.

Checking out what women are wearing now. 😓

[Ozyhibby]

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Indeed. When the majority of a Glasgow Question Time audience are applauding a Conservative MP calling for a rethink on the legislation you know Sturgeon has got something wrong.

Yes, you’ll never get a pro unionist question time audience.


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