The Trans Rights Debate

[147lothian]

[QUOTE=CropleyWasGod;7260581]

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My post was meant to highlight the apparent conflict in the 2 stories, which now seems to have been resolved. No opinion was offered .

Ok thanks for clearing that up

[Moulin Yarns]

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So she had it coming?

What did she have coming. Nobody did anything to her. Tell that to all the men she assaulted.

[archie]

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What did she have coming. Nobody did anything to her. Tell that to all the men she assaulted.

So living in fear is ok?

[Stairway 2 7]

Criminals lose their rights to opinions fears and wishes it seems.

[147lothian]

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So living in fear is ok?

This shows that Amanda Benson's fear is genuine from what she describes as a hulk of a man who was about 6'3 and there for domestic violence.

[He's here!]

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Protecting prisoners from harm is of no interest to 99% of the UK population and this thread is no different. This is about who might commit some harm rather than stopping harm. There are no long threads on here worrying about the shocking levels of violence and self harm in our prisons. Nobody actually cares about these prisoners at all. This is about attacking trans people and NS.


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The first sentence you just made up.

[Lester B]

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The first sentence you just made up.

It was a wholly reasonable assertion. You should try making a reasonable assertion yourself sometime. I think describing anyone on this thread as inaccurate is a bit rich given the various inconsistencies of your apparent position. Don’t you think?

[marinello59]

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Protecting prisoners from harm is of no interest to 99% of the UK population and this thread is no different. This is about who might commit some harm rather than stopping harm. There are no long threads on here worrying about the shocking levels of violence and self harm in our prisons. Nobody actually cares about these prisoners at all. This is about attacking trans people and NS.


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Im not so sure about that 99% figurę, Most people I know are fairly compassionate and would expect all of us to be protected from harm. Just because you don’t care doesn’t mean virtually nobody else does either. (Unless you are placing yourself in the 1% of the population that you think care. )

Your last statement just seems unfair. It would be just as easy to say that nobody actually cares about Trans people at all on here, it’s all about defending NS. Which would be ridiculous given that there have been people from both sides of this arguing their case respectfully. It’s really not all about cheap political point scoring.

[He's here!]

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It was a wholly reasonable assertion. You should try making a reasonable assertion yourself sometime. I think describing anyone on this thread as inaccurate is a bit rich given the various inconsistencies of your apparent position. Don’t you think?

I'm simply repeating his own assertion that another poster had made something up a few posts back.

Considering the story has been national news for the last week it's clearly commanding public interest (the key criteria for a news story) so I'd suggest more than 1% of the population are taking note. To try and brush it off as just an anti-SNP story doesn't wash. There would be a similar furore no matter which governing party was embroiled in this.

[He's here!]

Transcript from Surgeon's toe-curling interview with ITV'S Peter Smith earlier:

PS: 'Are all trans women women?'

NS: ‘That is not the point that we are dealing with here…

PS: ‘That is the question I am asking.’

NS: ‘Trans women are women, but in the present context there is no automatic right for a trans woman…’

PS: ‘So there are contexts where a trans woman is not a woman?’

NS: ‘No, there [are] circumstances when a trans woman will be housed in the male prison estate…’

PS: ‘Is there any context in which a woman born as a woman will be housed in the male estate?’

NS: ‘Look, we’re talking here about trans women…’

PS: ‘And I’m now asking about women born as women.’

NS: ‘I don’t think there are circumstances there, but…’

PS: ‘So it’s different for trans women?’

NS: ‘Well, yes…’

[Ozyhibby]

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Transcript from Surgeon's toe-curling interview with ITV'S Peter Smith earlier:

PS: 'Are all trans women women?'

NS: ‘That is not the point that we are dealing with here…

PS: ‘That is the question I am asking.’

NS: ‘Trans women are women, but in the present context there is no automatic right for a trans woman…’

PS: ‘So there are contexts where a trans woman is not a woman?’

NS: ‘No, there [are] circumstances when a trans woman will be housed in the male prison estate…’

PS: ‘Is there any context in which a woman born as a woman will be housed in the male estate?’

NS: ‘Look, we’re talking here about trans women…’

PS: ‘And I’m now asking about women born as women.’

NS: ‘I don’t think there are circumstances there, but…’

PS: ‘So it’s different for trans women?’

NS: ‘Well, yes…’

Nobody said they have all the exact same rights as we see with Sports. She perfectly consistent.
And nothing to do with the GRA.


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[He's here!]

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Nobody said they have all the exact same rights as we see with Sports. She perfectly consistent.
And nothing to do with the GRA.


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I don't think you can just dismiss this as being unrelated to legislation. For the many women who have aired concerns about women's spaces becoming open to men who claim they are women the prisons furore vindicates those fears and their concerns that the blocked SG legislation will only exacerbate the problem.

I remember reading an interview with J K Rowling a few months ago in which she predicted Sturgeon's gender legislation would prove to be her poll tax and thinking it was a bit of a stretch to believe that. Now I'm not quite so sure...

[greenlex]

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I don't think you can just dismiss this as being unrelated to legislation. For the many women who have aired concerns about women's spaces becoming open to men who claim they are women the prisons furore vindicates those fears and their concerns that the blocked SG legislation will only exacerbate the problem.

I remember reading an interview with J K Rowling a few months ago in which she predicted Sturgeon's gender legislation would prove to be her poll tax and thinking it was a bit of a stretch to believe that. Now I'm not quite so sure...

I’m sure it’s trans women who have committed assaults on women that are to be housed in male prisons. I think that’s absolutely right and hiw it should be. It absolutely should be about protecting vulnerable women. The journalist was right to question her but it wasn’t really relevant to what is front and centre at the moment.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

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Transcript from Surgeon's toe-curling interview with ITV'S Peter Smith earlier:

PS: 'Are all trans women women?'

PS: ‘That is the question I am asking.’

PS: ‘So there are contexts where a trans woman is not a woman?’

PS: ‘Is there any context in which a woman born as a woman will be housed in the male estate?’

PS: ‘And I’m now asking about women born as women.’

PS: ‘So it’s different for trans women?’

Now if you remove Nicola Sturgeon's responses and look at the line of questioning from Peter Smith here. It's the typical YES/NO line of questioning, where the interviewer hopes for a YES/NO response without the allowance of any context to be applied. They simply move on to the next question.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

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I’m sure it’s trans women who have committed assaults on women that are to be housed in male prisons. I think that’s absolutely right and hiw it should be. It absolutely should be about protecting vulnerable women. The journalist was right to question her but it wasn’t really relevant to what is front and centre at the moment.

What about the protection of vulnerable women from other women? Should those women be housed in the same prison? Or what about vulnerable men requiring protection from other men?

Why has it all been reduced to a trans-only issue?

[Stairway 2 7]

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What about the protection of vulnerable women from other women? Should those women be housed in the same prison? Or what about vulnerable men requiring protection from other men?

Why has it all been reduced to a trans-only issue?

Because 99% of rape and sexual assault is committed by men, there is an obvious physical advantage too. The vast majority of trans women don't medically change, biologically they are men.

I can't believe that's the second person tonight to try the what about women housed with dangerous women

[greenlex]

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What about the protection of vulnerable women from other women? Should those women be housed in the same prison? Or what about vulnerable men requiring protection from other men?

Why has it all been reduced to a trans-only issue?

Are you seriously questioning the reasoning why a biological male offender with a record of violence against women either physical or sexual shouldn’t be in a women only prison? Prisons are full of vulnerable prisoners. That’s why sex offenders are house in different areas from non sex offenders.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

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That’s why sex offenders are house in different areas from non sex offenders.

Indeed. So why does it matter if a trans-woman with sexual offences ends up in a female prison, if they're going to be housed in a different area anyway?

[Stairway 2 7]

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Gateside in greenock is not a women's prison. There are 5 accommodation units, one for women, another for people under supervision for release. Unless they all use a single shower block then I find it hard to see how the situation she described is possible.

Former governor of gateshead says they did mix

https://mobile.twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/1619973203396526083

Joanna Cherry KC
@joannaccherry
Let’s listen to former prison governor
@HotchkissRhona
speaking about life for vulnerable women accommodated with transgender prisoners in Scotland. This is lived experience not transphobia or any other phobia for that matter

[greenlex]

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Indeed. So why does it matter if a trans-woman with sexual offences ends up in a female prison, if they're going to be housed in a different area anyway?

I’m sure there will be times they mix briefly probs my due to staffing issues etc. I don’t think they should be near female etc offenders either. They shouldn’t be near female prison officers either IMO

[TrumpIsAPeado]

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I’m sure there will be times they mix briefly probs my due to staffing issues. They shouldn’t be near female prison officers either IMO

Why? Are female prison officers weaker and less capable of carrying out their job compared to male prison officers?

[Stairway 2 7]

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Indeed. So why does it matter if a trans-woman with sexual offences ends up in a female prison, if they're going to be housed in a different area anyway?

They aren't in different areas. Trans women mix with females ,no one is in continuous solitary confinement because a sexual offence as that would break their human rights

[greenlex]

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Why? Are female prison officers weaker and less capable of carrying out their job compared to male prison officers?

Restraining a male prisoner of course they are.

[He's here!]

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Restraining a male prisoner of course they are.

Maybe not if they're biological males claiming to be female

[TrumpIsAPeado]

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Restraining a male prisoner of course they are.

Female officers and Male officers all receive the same training for dealing with this kind of thing. Believe it or not, men get arrested by female officers rather frequently, they know what they're doing.

[He's here!]

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Former governor of gateshead says they did mix

https://mobile.twitter.com/joannacch...73203396526083

Joanna Cherry KC
@joannaccherry
Let’s listen to former prison governor
@HotchkissRhona
speaking about life for vulnerable women accommodated with transgender prisoners in Scotland. This is lived experience not transphobia or any other phobia for that matter

That's an interesting and informative listen.

[Hibrandenburg]

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Maybe not if they're biological males claiming to be female

Well if they're willing to claim to be female just to attack women in the ladies, then what's stopping them?

[archie]

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Well if they're willing to claim to be female just to attack women in the ladies, then what's stopping them?

Have you any idea how heartless that sounds? I know it's an attack line, but I can't accept that you really mean it

[archie]

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Why? Are female prison officers weaker and less capable of carrying out their job compared to male prison officers?

One of to he offenders in question asked to be attended to and searched by women officers only. You ok with that?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

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One of to he offenders in question asked to be attended to and searched by women officers only. You ok with that?

Whether I'm personally ok with it or not is irrelevant. Officers (regardless of their gender) will carry their jobs out accordingly. That's what they are trained to do.