The Trans Rights Debate

[ronaldo7]

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And that's the key issue here amongst all this disassembling nonsense. In addition, the position appears to have changed on the hoof. Yesterday it was a matter for the SPS. So what happened today?

You've said the position seems to have changed on the hoof. What evidence do you have for that, or is it that SPS carried our their assessment in the time allocated and the decision was made.

Is your "on the hoof" comment fair?

What do you know about the systems in place?

[hibsbollah]

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I'm not sure why you are thinking that I'm defending 'the downtrodden right wing underclass' whatever that is. I am,however, pushing back on the garbled analysis that appears to say anyone pushing back on a belief system is a fascist. I would go further and say your labeling of UK government as fascist is extremely sloppy. I don't think right wing views, no matter how much I disagree with them, is fascist. And I see nothing fascist about concern for womens rights.

You’re absolutely all over the place. Until you can show someone, far less me, saying or suggesting ‘anyone who pushes back on a belief system is a fascist’, you are just going to be another one of those posters who grabs on to straw men because they’ve got nothing else to offer in debate.

On the other point, I am really comfortable with labeling key ministers in the current UK government as fascistic because it stands up to analysis when you look at the development of their messaging and their legislation since2017 and further back. The F word really does need to be aired more often and I’m happy to debate it elsewhere. You don’t need to wear a uniform or do a funny walk. These days the most successful ones wear nice suits.

[JeMeSouviens]

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Indeed. The tiptoeing around this is absurd.

All transwomen are male.
A woman is an adult human female.

That's the most straightforward fact-based approach to adopt, particularly when it comes to rape cases.

But is it? I've been dipping my toe into some of the research around gender incongruence. There is an emerging body of work, eg. see link below, that brains as well as other parts of the body develop into masculine or feminine forms. And that there are biological mechanisms through which brain-sex may not match rest-of-body-sex. Simplistic anti-"woke" slogans are unlikely to be helpful.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0205084203.htm

This is not to say that the safety of female prisoners shouldn't be paramount, however, and my view is that in this situation it's quite right to isolate and assess anyone claiming to be trans. I would've thought any competent prison psychiatrist would be able to sort the actual transgender wheat from the at-it-for-nefarious-motives chaff pretty quickly?

[147lothian]

I am against the GRRB for the same reasons as people like Joanna Cherry and Debbie Hayton, that is that as soon as you make it easier to Gender Self-ID and remove all the safe guards male sexual predators will use the loops in the law to enter woman only spaces with nefarious motives.

This doesn't only put women and children at risk, it also is not good for trans people because once this inevitably happens trans people will be tarred with the same brush when crimes are carried out by male sexual predators. Isn't it ironic that after what seems like a day after the GRRB was passed in Holyrood what we were told wouldn't happen did happen.

A male sexual predator Called Adam Graham raped two women as a man after being charged there was a name change to Iyla Bryson, the victims had to address the rapist in court using the pronouns she/her and the rapist was taken on remand to a woman only prison.

I know that supporters of the Scottish Government are going to come out and say but he/she is in a male prison now so there is nothing to see move along, but do you really think this would have happened if there was not international media coverage and a public uproar?

If you think Iyla Bryson would have been moved to a male prison anyway, then look at the case of Katie Dolatowski. Just like Iyla Bryson, Katie Dolatowski is not a real trans person. Katie Dolatowski is a male pedophile who used the identity of being of a women to enter women only spaces namely supermarket female toilets to target female children.

Katie Dolatowski is male but identifies as a women and was convicted of filming a 12 year old girl with the mobile phone over the partition wall of a female toilet cubicle of a Halbeath Asda Store, same person grabbed a 10 year old girl by the face in a Morrison Store in Kirkcaldy forced her into the female toilet cubicle and sexually assaulted her.

This person had stayed for 71 days at a domestic violence refuge for mothers and children in Leeds and a women only hostel in Fife.

Katie Dolatowski was jailed at Polmot young offenders institution for male offenders, but after physically assaulting a fellow inmate there, has since been transferred to the women only Cornton Vale Prison.

https://news.stv.tv/west-central/sco...o-cornton-vale

[archie]

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You've said the position seems to have changed on the hoof. What evidence do you have for that, or is it that SPS carried our their assessment in the time allocated and the decision was made.

Is your "on the hoof" comment fair?

What do you know about the systems in place?

The responsible cabinet Secretary said on Wednesday: The simple fact is that, as I have said already, I trust the SPS to deal with this. On Thursday FM says: I will repeat some of what I have already said. Let me be clear: this prisoner is not going to be incarcerated in Cornton Vale, either short term or long term.

What is not at all clear is whether SPS reached the decision following a full assessment or not. It is unclear if FM is relaying a decision made by SPS. I don't know what happened (and to be fair, neither do you). But there is clearly a significant shift in the SG position from Wednesday to Thursday. How can the FM announce that the prisoner will never be in Cornton Vale if is is soley a matter for the SPS?

[James310]

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The responsible cabinet Secretary said on Wednesday: The simple fact is that, as I have said already, I trust the SPS to deal with this. On Thursday FM says: I will repeat some of what I have already said. Let me be clear: this prisoner is not going to be incarcerated in Cornton Vale, either short term or long term.

What is not at all clear is whether SPS reached the decision following a full assessment or not. It is unclear if FM is relaying a decision made by SPS. I don't know what happened (and to be fair, neither do you). But there is clearly a significant shift in the SG position from Wednesday to Thursday. How can the FM announce that the prisoner will never be in Cornton Vale if is is soley a matter for the SPS?

"Ms Sturgeon’s official spokesman denied that the Scottish Government had any involvement in the initial decision but said she had intervened to make clear to prison chiefs her opposition to Bryson being housed with female inmates."

The Court Order said he should have been sent to Barlinnie.

[AgentDaleCooper]

The case of Isla Bryson has been in the news this week. As far as we can tell, the Scottish Prison Service’s policy has generated the result it should, and that we would have expected. As we understand it, Isla Bryson was held in segregation while a risk assessment was done. That risk assessment decided, not surprisingly, that she should not be held in the women’s estate. That is what we would expect for a person convicted of rape. It is our view that anyone who has committed sexually violent crimes, and who poses a risk to women, should not be housed with women on the female estate.
In September 2022, there were 15 trans people in custody in Scotland (0.2% of the prison population). Following risk assessments, 9 of them were held in the estate matching their gender assigned at birth, and 6 in the estate matching their transitioned gender. It is right that this should be decided on an individualised risk assessment basis. For example, a trans woman transitioned for 20 years, who is in prison for a non-violent offence like financial fraud, might pose no risk to other women in custody, but be at significant risk herself if accommodated on the male estate. A blanket rule about where trans people in custody are accommodated would be wrong.
The assessment of where a trans person in custody is held does not depend on whether or not they have a gender recognition certificate (GRC). The risk assessment policy applies to all trans people in custody, with or without GRCs. That means that the changes to the process for applying for a GRC, overwhelmingly agreed by the Scottish Parliament in December, would have no effect on the Scottish Prison Service’s policy on this, and no effect on where trans people in custody are housed.
In a community of any size, there will be some people who commit appalling crimes – that does not and should not reflect on the majority of that community.

statement from the Scottish Trans Alliance. Seems thoroughly sensible to me

interesting that the GRR bill isn't actually legally relevant to this case - it's almost as if a fuss is being kicked up to fuel a media narrative, rather than because of actual practical implications

to be clear, by the way - i am in no way one of these people who throws the label 'TERFs' around, and i do genuinely see why this issue is so difficult for a lot of cis women, especially those who have themselves been subjected to sexual violence. i also know, however, trans women who would be at incredible risk if for some reason they were to be thrown in a men's jail. it's an extremely complex situation, and those that seek to simplify it then write off people who disagree with them are probably the biggest hurdle to solving the issue. i find it particularly weird when cis men express very strong opinions on the matter, whether that be hurling the word 'TERF' around, or throwing grenades into the conversation as Graham Linehan likes to do.

it would appear to me, however, that the policy outlined in the statement above is pretty much spot on.

[Ozyhibby]

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statement from the Scottish Trans Alliance. Seems thoroughly sensible to me

No place for sensible on here. We need to find a way to blame Sturgeon.


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[marinello59]

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"Ms Sturgeon’s official spokesman denied that the Scottish Government had any involvement in the initial decision but said she had intervened to make clear to prison chiefs her opposition to Bryson being housed with female inmates."

The Court Order said he should have been sent to Barlinnie.

Where did this come from?

[archie]

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You’re absolutely all over the place. Until you can show someone, far less me, saying or suggesting ‘anyone who pushes back on a belief system is a fascist’, you are just going to be another one of those posters who grabs on to straw men because they’ve got nothing else to offer in debate.

On the other point, I am really comfortable with labeling key ministers in the current UK government as fascistic because it stands up to analysis when you look at the development of their messaging and their legislation since2017 and further back. The F word really does need to be aired more often and I’m happy to debate it elsewhere. You don’t need to wear a uniform or do a funny walk. These days the most successful ones wear nice suits.

Ok, I think there are a number of things at play here. Firstly, it's possible that we may have different understanding of what fascism is. To my mind it is charactarised by:

- Authoritarianism and opposition to democratic processes
- Emphasis on managed capitalism
- Corporatism, as in the Italian model
- Political violence - particularly, but not exclusively, against opponents
- Populism, by which I mean the positioning of the leader as having the unique link to the people
- Strong role for the state in determining, and enforcing, political and social norms
- Suppression of opposing voices and control of the media.

FWIW I think that Donald Trump showed a number of these traits, but for me it was the refusal to accept the democratic process and the use of violence to secure that was fascistic behavior.

My concern is that simply labeling right wing policies as fascism, it diminishes the term and, paradoxically, makes us more inured to when it comes along. An example of what I think is hyperbolic use of the term was around the named person legislation. Some opponents labled it as fascistic as it gave the state an enhanced (and unclear) role in relation to children. This is was argued represented the state determining and enforcing political norms and imposing them on children. My view FWIW is that it was well meaning legislation that collapsed under the weight of its own contradicions. While a link could be drawn to some fascist tenets, I don't see an arguable case that it was.

Do I think the Tories are right wing. Yup. Do I agree with their policies on refugees - no. But do I think they will promote a violent insurrection to stop them being emptied from power? No. I also think that they are not attracted to the managed capitalism that is a charactaristic of fascism. They are much to free market for that.

Turning to your point about how fascism is marshaled an attack in the trans debate, here's some examples:

https://xtramagazine.com/power/far-r...fascist-220810

https://ginnymcqueen.com/terfs-are-nazi-****/

https://www.womenarehuman.com/upcomi...y-councillors/

https://www.transadvocate.com/fascis...ed_n_52458.htm

https://twitter.com/pickle_bee/statu...90171765530624

[James310]

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Where did this come from?

An article in the Telegraph:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...ist-climbdown/

[archie]

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statement from the Scottish Trans Alliance. Seems thoroughly sensible to me

interesting that the GRR bill isn't actually legally relevant to this case - it's almost as if a fuss is being kicked up to fuel a media narrative, rather than because of actual practical implications

to be clear, by the way - i am in no way one of these people who throws the label 'TERFs' around, and i do genuinely see why this issue is so difficult for a lot of cis women, especially those who have themselves been subjected to sexual violence. i also know, however, trans women who would be at incredible risk if for some reason they were to be thrown in a men's jail. it's an extremely complex situation, and those that seek to simplify it then write off people who disagree with them are probably the biggest hurdle to solving the issue. i find it particularly weird when cis men express very strong opinions on the matter, whether that be hurling the word 'TERF' around, or throwing grenades into the conversation as Graham Linehan likes to do.

it would appear to me, however, that the policy outlined in the statement above is pretty much spot on.

Some people find the term CIS offensive: https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/b...-cis-1.3843005

Also this is an interesting read: https://twitter.com/LucyHunterB/stat...49747760410626

[Just Alf]

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What do you mean 'from the horses mouth'?

Someone in the SPS indirectly involved in this case.

I see Andy Bee has also answered..

[archie]

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Someone in the SPS indirectly involved in this case.

I see Andy Bee has also answered..

I'd advise a little care here. If someone in the SPS is talking about the process they could be in serious trouble. That's not a pop - they should be careful!

[ronaldo7]

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The responsible cabinet Secretary said on Wednesday: The simple fact is that, as I have said already, I trust the SPS to deal with this. On Thursday FM says: I will repeat some of what I have already said. Let me be clear: this prisoner is not going to be incarcerated in Cornton Vale, either short term or long term.

What is not at all clear is whether SPS reached the decision following a full assessment or not. It is unclear if FM is relaying a decision made by SPS. I don't know what happened (and to be fair, neither do you). But there is clearly a significant shift in the SG position from Wednesday to Thursday. How can the FM announce that the prisoner will never be in Cornton Vale if is is soley a matter for the SPS?

Glad you cleared that up. Too many people clutching on this tbh.

[hibsbollah]

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Ok, I think there are a number of things at play here. Firstly, it's possible that we may have different understanding of what fascism is. To my mind it is charactarised by:

- Authoritarianism and opposition to democratic processes
- Emphasis on managed capitalism
- Corporatism, as in the Italian model
- Political violence - particularly, but not exclusively, against opponents
- Populism, by which I mean the positioning of the leader as having the unique link to the people
- Strong role for the state in determining, and enforcing, political and social norms
- Suppression of opposing voices and control of the media.

FWIW I think that Donald Trump showed a number of these traits, but for me it was the refusal to accept the democratic process and the use of violence to secure that was fascistic behavior.

My concern is that simply labeling right wing policies as fascism, it diminishes the term and, paradoxically, makes us more inured to when it comes along. An example of what I think is hyperbolic use of the term was around the named person legislation. Some opponents labled it as fascistic as it gave the state an enhanced (and unclear) role in relation to children. This is was argued represented the state determining and enforcing political norms and imposing them on children. My view FWIW is that it was well meaning legislation that collapsed under the weight of its own contradicions. While a link could be drawn to some fascist tenets, I don't see an arguable case that it was.

Do I think the Tories are right wing. Yup. Do I agree with their policies on refugees - no. But do I think they will promote a violent insurrection to stop them being emptied from power? No. I also think that they are not attracted to the managed capitalism that is a charactaristic of fascism. They are much to free market for that.

Turning to your point about how fascism is marshaled an attack in the trans debate, here's some examples:

https://xtramagazine.com/power/far-r...fascist-220810

https://ginnymcqueen.com/terfs-are-nazi-****/

https://www.womenarehuman.com/upcomi...y-councillors/

https://www.transadvocate.com/fascis...ed_n_52458.htm

https://twitter.com/pickle_bee/statu...90171765530624

A reasonable list of fascist identifiers. Id add to that Stigmatisation of vulnerable groups. Or 'Othering', in modern parlance. Particularly as part of a prolonged campaign. The intolerance of dissent. The criminalisation of protest, and the undermining of the legal profession to act as an arbiter or a 'check' on the excesses of the Government, the police, the military or whoever the state gives the legal right to apply violence. The eradication of power in other non government structures like independent journalism, trade unions, local government and other bastions of what we used to call 'civil society' when i was an undergraduate. (Im not sure where this word has gone but thats another topic). All identifiers that those that wield power in the current manifestation of the Tory party seem to be very comfortable with. And all identifiers that remind me of the direction of travel of the British state. (Theres a few other identifiers like the glorification of the Male, Sporting Glory, the Armed Forces and The Church that we used to see historically in Greece Spain and Italy but that become less relevant and some of these things are less relevant in society generally).

I agree that adopting a Rick from the Young Ones style hysterical finger pointing 'You Fascist!' position anytime you find something too dogmatic or authoritarian is wrong. However, its equally wrong to ignore flagrant undermining of civil liberties and other markers ive outlined above just because a fascist state hasn't yet been created. They rarely tell you theyre going to do it while theyre doing it, its an incremental process.

Back on the main topic. The links youve provided? A few barely read blogs and a tweet dont represent positions ive seen taken publicly very often, if ever, certainly not on here and certainly not by me. On the other side of the coin you have the vast majority of the mainstream media taking a hysterically anti trans position and blatantly equating trans people in the minds of millions, with sexual predation. Thats a massive power imbalance. You cant compare the two things. Apples and pears to coin a phrase.

Just to be clear, you may have missed what I said in my previous post. Lots of people (and i include the First Minister, and the legal profession in this) are trying to balance Two Conflicting Rights at the moment. (the rights of trans people, and the rights of women to retain women-only spaces, just to be clear) Its a very tricky balancing act and mistakes will and have been made. Accusing people that are genuinely trying to balance these Two Conflicting Rights, from whatever side, of being fascists when they arent, is misguided at best.

[AgentDaleCooper]

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Some people find the term CIS offensive: https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/b...-cis-1.3843005

Also this is an interesting read: https://twitter.com/LucyHunterB/stat...49747760410626

i know - here's an outline of why i use the term.

firstly, i think that trans women = women, and trans men = men in terms of their identity.

if i want to talk about women whose identity matches the gender they were born, it's excluding trans people to refer to them as simply 'women' or 'men', as this suggests that trans people are 'women/men, but...'.

as such, a term is needed to differentiate between trans people and people who's gender identity matches that which they were assigned at birth...as that is a rather cumbersome 'term' (it's more of a sentence).

for want of a 'better' term, i use 'cis', because i don't really see what's offensive about it - it's simply a means of differentiating. if someone is offended by it then i'll gladly use some other term, or if necessary, roll off that massive dictionary definition.

i honestly have no clue whatsoever why a man would be 'offended' by being referred to as 'cis' though. i do get it with women, particularly those from older generations - they've spent their lives fighting for rights based on a sharp distinction between the genders, and are now concerned to see such a distinction being dissolved (as, i understand, they see it). but men...i don't get it

interesting article though, even though i pretty much disagree with his final point.

[Kato]

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Ok, I think there are a number of things at play here. Firstly, it's possible that we may have different understanding of what fascism is. To my mind it is charactarised by:

- Authoritarianism and opposition to democratic processes
- Emphasis on managed capitalism
- Corporatism, as in the Italian model
- Political violence - particularly, but not exclusively, against opponents
- Populism, by which I mean the positioning of the leader as having the unique link to the people
- Strong role for the state in determining, and enforcing, political and social norms
- Suppression of opposing voices and control of the media.

FWIW I think that Donald Trump showed a number of these traits, but for me it was the refusal to accept the democratic process and the use of violence to secure that was fascistic behavior.

My concern is that simply labeling right wing policies as fascism, it diminishes the term and, paradoxically, makes us more inured to when it comes along. An example of what I think is hyperbolic use of the term was around the named person legislation. Some opponents labled it as fascistic as it gave the state an enhanced (and unclear) role in relation to children. This is was argued represented the state determining and enforcing political norms and imposing them on children. My view FWIW is that it was well meaning legislation that collapsed under the weight of its own contradicions. While a link could be drawn to some fascist tenets, I don't see an arguable case that it was.

Do I think the Tories are right wing. Yup. Do I agree with their policies on refugees - no. But do I think they will promote a violent insurrection to stop them being emptied from power? No. I also think that they are not attracted to the managed capitalism that is a charactaristic of fascism. They are much to free market for that.

Turning to your point about how fascism is marshaled an attack in the trans debate, here's some examples:

https://xtramagazine.com/power/far-r...fascist-220810

https://ginnymcqueen.com/terfs-are-nazi-****/

https://www.womenarehuman.com/upcomi...y-councillors/

https://www.transadvocate.com/fascis...ed_n_52458.htm

https://twitter.com/pickle_bee/statu...90171765530624

That's all very interesting and academic, grids and demarcations used to define what fascism is from a sort "Rule Book" type angle.

I don't define them that way. Fascists are gangsters who grab power in order to theive while playing people off each other as a distraction. Everything else, uniforms, stated political aims, manifestos - optional fripperies.

This lot, "the tory brexit crew" who took over their party in 2016, are cultural murderers, fiscal opportunists, cronyists, double-talkers, race-baiters, liars and have pulled off several economic heists in their short time and have barely had their fingers out of the public purse since taking over.

That's facsistic enough for me, although the dry academic angle is interesting.

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[JeMeSouviens]

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Some people find the term CIS offensive: https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/b...-cis-1.3843005

Also this is an interesting read: https://twitter.com/LucyHunterB/stat...49747760410626

From your first link:

Many of these debates are being played out in the murky and discourteous world of Twitter, a place where adults go to scream at each other.

[He's here!]

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But is it? I've been dipping my toe into some of the research around gender incongruence. There is an emerging body of work, eg. see link below, that brains as well as other parts of the body develop into masculine or feminine forms. And that there are biological mechanisms through which brain-sex may not match rest-of-body-sex. Simplistic anti-"woke" slogans are unlikely to be helpful.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0205084203.htm

This is not to say that the safety of female prisoners shouldn't be paramount, however, and my view is that in this situation it's quite right to isolate and assess anyone claiming to be trans. I would've thought any competent prison psychiatrist would be able to sort the actual transgender wheat from the at-it-for-nefarious-motives chaff pretty quickly?

Is pointing out biological reality a simplistic anti-woke statement?

That 'emerging body of work' you've linked to is interesting as far as it goes but doesn't as yet alter the fact that trans-women are all males. Until it does we're left with the more strident trans activists trying to persuade anyone who will listen that trans-women are women. Thanks to the bewildering Haldane ruling such a biological impossibility has been given credence and under the SG bill any man who states he's a woman would appear to become one in every sense once he picks up his/her GRC. We then enter a whole new mad world where women can literally be raped by other women. Little wonder Sturgeon was left lost for words when grilled on whether Bryson is a man or a woman.

[hibsbollah]

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Is pointing out biological reality a simplistic anti-woke statement?

That 'emerging body of work' you've linked to is interesting as far as it goes but doesn't as yet alter the fact that trans-women are all males. Until it does we're left with the more strident trans activists trying to persuade anyone who will listen that trans-women are women. Thanks to the bewildering Haldane ruling such a biological impossibility has been given credence and under the SG bill any man who states he's a woman would appear to become one in every sense once he picks up his/her GRC - and we enter a whole new mad world where women can literally be raped by other women. Little wonder Sturgeon was left lost for words when grilled on whether Bryson is a man or a woman.

It’s really not on point, and the debate is getting further and further away, but please remember the desire of the rapist to rape the woman would been there regardless of whether the rapist had transitioned or not. All it should serve to do is remind us that it’s a sexual violence against women issue, not a trans issue.

[JeMeSouviens]

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Is pointing out biological reality a simplistic anti-woke statement?

That 'emerging body of work' you've linked to is interesting as far as it goes but doesn't as yet alter the fact that trans-women are all males. Until it does we're left with the more strident trans activists trying to persuade anyone who will listen that trans-women are women. Thanks to the bewildering Haldane ruling such a biological impossibility has been given credence and under the SG bill any man who states he's a woman would appear to become one in every sense once he picks up his/her GRC. We then enter a whole new mad world where women can literally be raped by other women. Little wonder Sturgeon was left lost for words when grilled on whether Bryson is a man or a woman.

Did you read the article at the link?

There is likely a biological reality that someone with male sex organs can have a female brain and vice versa. Why would you stridently choose one biological reality over the other?

You come across on here as a good match for the description of Graham Linehan in archie's link:

while at worst he comes across as someone masking intolerance by promoting himself as a champion of women. And look, I may not be the world’s greatest authority on the latter, but one thing I know for sure is that women can look after themselves just fine and they don’t need a man to do the job for them.

In your case, I would contend, it's not much of a mask.

[archie]

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A reasonable list of fascist identifiers. Id add to that Stigmatisation of vulnerable groups. Or 'Othering', in modern parlance. Particularly as part of a prolonged campaign. The intolerance of dissent. The criminalisation of protest, and the undermining of the legal profession to act as an arbiter or a 'check' on the excesses of the Government, the police, the military or whoever the state gives the legal right to apply violence. The eradication of power in other non government structures like independent journalism, trade unions, local government and other bastions of what we used to call 'civil society' when i was an undergraduate. (Im not sure where this word has gone but thats another topic). All identifiers that those that wield power in the current manifestation of the Tory party seem to be very comfortable with. And all identifiers that remind me of the direction of travel of the British state. (Theres a few other identifiers like the glorification of the Male, Sporting Glory, the Armed Forces and The Church that we used to see historically in Greece Spain and Italy but that become less relevant and some of these things are less relevant in society generally).

I agree that adopting a Rick from the Young Ones style hysterical finger pointing 'You Fascist!' position anytime you find something too dogmatic or authoritarian is wrong. However, its equally wrong to ignore flagrant undermining of civil liberties and other markers ive outlined above just because a fascist state hasn't yet been created. They rarely tell you theyre going to do it while theyre doing it, its an incremental process.

Back on the main topic. The links youve provided? A few barely read blogs and a tweet dont represent positions ive seen taken publicly very often, if ever, certainly not on here and certainly not by me. On the other side of the coin you have the vast majority of the mainstream media taking a hysterically anti trans position and blatantly equating trans people in the minds of millions, with sexual predation. Thats a massive power imbalance. You cant compare the two things. Apples and pears to coin a phrase.

Just to be clear, you may have missed what I said in my previous post. Lots of people (and i include the First Minister, and the legal profession in this) are trying to balance Two Conflicting Rights at the moment. (the rights of trans people, and the rights of women to retain women-only spaces, just to be clear) Its a very tricky balancing act and mistakes will and have been made. Accusing people that are genuinely trying to balance these Two Conflicting Rights, from whatever side, of being fascists when they arent, is misguided at best.

Thanks for the response. I actually think we are not too far apart on the issue. A couple of things I would reference. On the use of fascism as a throwaway term, I don't think it's a few hardly read blogs. Judith Butler, who I am sure you are aware of, has made the link. As for mainstream media, I would say that until recently there was overwhelming and fairly uncritical support for the trans position (ok maybe not the Telegraph). The use of pronouns to describe trans people (especially in the recent court case) has been largely uncontested until now.

[archie]

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It’s really not on point, and the debate is getting further and further away, but please remember the desire of the rapist to rape the woman would been there regardless of whether the rapist had transitioned or not. All it should serve to do is remind us that it’s a sexual violence against women issue, not a trans issue.

I agree. I think that most on here have that view.

[archie]

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Did you read the article at the link?

There is likely a biological reality that someone with male sex organs can have a female brain and vice versa. Why would you stridently choose one biological reality over the other?

You come across on here as a good match for the description of Graham Linehan in archie's link:



In your case, I would contend, it's not much of a mask.

What is a female brain?

[JeMeSouviens]

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What is a female brain?

I assume you are as capable of using google as I am, but here's a summary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuros...ex_differences

[archie]

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I assume you are as capable of using google as I am, but here's a summary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuros...ex_differences

I have come across Google, but I have never seen a reference to people having male sex organs and a female brain. I would think that would be highly contentious, given views about womens intellectual capacity that have been held until recently. There's a real tension with this approach. If society shapes gender then the idea that a 'lady brain' would determine gender becomes harder to defend. But anyway, having followed your advice to use Google this popped up https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/03/210325115316.htm#:~:text=%22Sex%20differences%20ar e%20sexy%2C%20but,that%20differ%20between%20the%20 sexes.

[hibby rae]

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Ok, I think there are a number of things at play here. Firstly, it's possible that we may have different understanding of what fascism is. To my mind it is charactarised by:

- Authoritarianism and opposition to democratic processes
- Emphasis on managed capitalism
- Corporatism, as in the Italian model
- Political violence - particularly, but not exclusively, against opponents
- Populism, by which I mean the positioning of the leader as having the unique link to the people
- Strong role for the state in determining, and enforcing, political and social norms
- Suppression of opposing voices and control of the media.

FWIW I think that Donald Trump showed a number of these traits, but for me it was the refusal to accept the democratic process and the use of violence to secure that was fascistic behavior.

My concern is that simply labeling right wing policies as fascism, it diminishes the term and, paradoxically, makes us more inured to when it comes along. An example of what I think is hyperbolic use of the term was around the named person legislation. Some opponents labled it as fascistic as it gave the state an enhanced (and unclear) role in relation to children. This is was argued represented the state determining and enforcing political norms and imposing them on children. My view FWIW is that it was well meaning legislation that collapsed under the weight of its own contradicions. While a link could be drawn to some fascist tenets, I don't see an arguable case that it was.

Do I think the Tories are right wing. Yup. Do I agree with their policies on refugees - no. But do I think they will promote a violent insurrection to stop them being emptied from power? No. I also think that they are not attracted to the managed capitalism that is a charactaristic of fascism. They are much to free market for that.

Turning to your point about how fascism is marshaled an attack in the trans debate, here's some examples:

https://xtramagazine.com/power/far-r...fascist-220810

https://ginnymcqueen.com/terfs-are-nazi-****/

https://www.womenarehuman.com/upcomi...y-councillors/

https://www.transadvocate.com/fascis...ed_n_52458.htm

https://twitter.com/pickle_bee/statu...90171765530624

One of my lecturers at Ed Uni, historian, once said it's easier to say what a fascist isn't rather than what it is as there is no uniform definition and fascism varied from country to country (and within countries).

[JeMeSouviens]

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I have come across Google, but I have never seen a reference to people having male sex organs and a female brain. I would think that would be highly contentious, given views about womens intellectual capacity that have been held until recently. There's a real tension with this approach. If society shapes gender then the idea that a 'lady brain' would determine gender becomes harder to defend. But anyway, having followed your advice to use Google this popped up https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...%20the%20sexes.

Fixing your link: https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0325115316.htm

[hibby rae]

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The responsible cabinet Secretary said on Wednesday: The simple fact is that, as I have said already, I trust the SPS to deal with this. On Thursday FM says: I will repeat some of what I have already said. Let me be clear: this prisoner is not going to be incarcerated in Cornton Vale, either short term or long term.

What is not at all clear is whether SPS reached the decision following a full assessment or not. It is unclear if FM is relaying a decision made by SPS. I don't know what happened (and to be fair, neither do you). But there is clearly a significant shift in the SG position from Wednesday to Thursday. How can the FM announce that the prisoner will never be in Cornton Vale if is is soley a matter for the SPS?

She discusses all this on the Newsagents podcast, which came out a couple hours ago and was recorded yesterday