The Trans Rights Debate

[archie]

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Sexuality is a spectrum. However that doesn't mean that people simply move around it. It's not that people's sexuality changes over time. It's that it can take time for a person to discover what their true sexuality actually is. A person can spend years in a straight relationship for example, only to discover that they are actually gay. Does that mean that they were straight up to that point and just suddenly decided they were going to be gay from now on? I don't believe it works that way.

That implies that there is a 'true' state that someone has that, once achieved, can't be moved from. There are plenty of examples of people who have been in same sex relationships who then move on to a straight relationship. I wouldn't presume that either of these were their 'true self'.

[archie]

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Sexuality is a spectrum. However that doesn't mean that people simply move around it. It's not that people's sexuality changes over time. It's that it can take time for a person to discover what their true sexuality actually is. A person can spend years in a straight relationship for example, only to discover that they are actually gay. Does that mean that they were straight up to that point and just suddenly decided they were going to be gay from now on? I don't believe it works that way.

So where does this person fit in your spectrum? https://wearethecity.com/inspirational-profile-pips-bunce-director-credit-suisse/

[hibby rae]

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https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcas...=1000595021007


Worth a listen.


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Listened to it earlier, very good.

As an aside, the Newsagents podcast is very good generally.

[Ozyhibby]

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Listened to it earlier, very good.

As an aside, the Newsagents podcast is very good generally.

Best one out there imo. You can tell they are enjoying being free from the BBC.


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[archie]

Most here will ignore this because the KC'S opinion was sought by a religious group, but there are issues raised that should give pause for thought https://www.scottishlegal.com/articl...sals-draconian

[hibby rae]

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Best one out there imo. You can tell they are enjoying being free from the BBC.


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Absolutely, that one and one last month (I think) about the Government's actions against refugees were top-tier journalism

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Good coverage from Phil here, regarding the situation between Holyrood and Westminster.



If the UK Government were in anyway confident in their rhetoric about this bill impeding on non-devolved issues, they would have enacted Section 33 rather than Section 35. Section 35 is an order intended for emergency situations. The order is deliberately very vague and open to interpretation, which basically allows the UK Government to use it whenever they see fit to overrule any devolved legislation without legal scrutiny.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

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That implies that there is a 'true' state that someone has that, once achieved, can't be moved from. There are plenty of examples of people who have been in same sex relationships who then move on to a straight relationship. I wouldn't presume that either of these were their 'true self'.

You are familiar with the term 'bisexuality' right?

[archie]

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You are familiar with the term 'bisexuality' right?

Yes.

[hibby rae]

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Good coverage from Phil here, regarding the situation between Holyrood and Westminster.



If the UK Government were in anyway confident in their rhetoric about this bill impeding on non-devolved issues, they would have enacted Section 33 rather than Section 35. Section 35 is an order intended for emergency situations. The order is deliberately very vague and open to interpretation, which basically allows the UK Government to use it whenever they see fit to overrule any devolved legislation without legal scrutiny.

That was good.

Agree with all of it and been saying it for a while, pretty much every Tory act right now is part of an electoral strategy.

[Moulin Yarns]

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Surely you agree that effects on career progression were worst for snp mps that apposed the bill.

This is really bugging me, I know it shouldn't but...


appose
/əˈpəʊz/
verbTECHNICAL
place (something) side by side with or close to something else.
"the specimen was apposed to X-ray film"

[archie]

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That was good.

Agree with all of it and been saying it for a while, pretty much every Tory act right now is part of an electoral strategy.

Shock, horror probe! A political party pursuing an electoral strategy. Whatever next?

[He's here!]

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This has the potential to blow up in everyone's face. I think the Haldane judgement has been a game changer. That feeds directly into the same sex spaces argument that UKG has put forward. I'm not a lawyer, but it appears to me that it makes the SG case harder, partly because the other points UKG has raised don't look like slam dunks. But we'll see.

You're right, the Haldane judgement was a game changer. I remain bewildered by it. A bill which makes it easier for a male to 'become a woman' already had clear implications for women's rights but the Haldane judgement, which means they don't only change their gender but their sex reduces the concept of womanhood from a biological certainty to a mere identity, something anyone can assume should they so wish. Madness.

For a supposed feminist like Sturgeon to have so stubbornly insisted we enter this land of make believe, refusing to countenance even amendments like banning sex offenders from changng sex, is mind-boggling. The unhinged nonsense spouted by the likes of Maggie Chapman this week also underlines the perils of making the Scottish Greens your bedfellows. This is a mess of Sturgeon's making no matter how stridently she tries to blame Westminster.

[McSwanky]

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Shock, horror probe! A political party pursuing an electoral strategy. Whatever next?

How about running the country in a way that benefits most of its residents? Radical.

[Ozyhibby]

Sarwar got the right tone tonight on Scotland Tonight. Admitted he doesn’t agree with Starmer. I suspect his backbenchers had words.
Needs to not go into hiding for 24 hours when things are happening though but better non the less.


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[archie]

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How about running the country in a way that benefits most of its residents? Radical.

I agree, but all parties do it.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

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You're right, the Haldane judgement was a game changer. I remain bewildered by it. A bill which makes it easier for a male to 'become a woman' already had clear implications for women's rights but the Haldane judgement, which means they don't only change their gender but their sex reduces the concept of womanhood from a biological certainty to a mere identity, something anyone can assume should they so wish. Madness.

For a supposed feminist like Sturgeon to have so stubbornly insisted we enter this land of make believe, refusing to countenance even amendments like banning sex offenders from changng sex, is mind-boggling. The unhinged nonsense spouted by the likes of Maggie Chapman this week also underlines the perils of making the Scottish Greens your bedfellows. This is a mess of Sturgeon's making no matter how stridently she tries to blame Westminster.

You realize the bill works both ways right? It also "reduces the concept" of manhood from a biological certainty to a mere identity (if that's your way of looking at it). As a man, I can't say I really care to be honest. If a biologically born female wishes to transition into a male due to the way they identify themselves, that's none of my business and certainly not my place to tell them that they can't.

As for "stubborn Sturgeon", she (as pointed out multiple times already in this thread), put forward a bill that was backed by MSPs from every single party in Holyrood. SNP, Greens, Lib Dems, Labour and tory MSPs.

The only "mess" here is the one being stirred up by the 2 main parties at Westminster, who are in a race to the bottom to appeal to as many Daily Express readers as possible. There's absolutely zero justification for the actions being taken here and the "reasons" given for it. Because if there was any justification, a Section 33 order would have been enacted, rather than the nuclear option of Section 35 which allows the UK Government to effectively block any bill put forward by a devolved parliament, covering devolved areas, bypassing the court in the process.

[Hibrandenburg]

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Sarwar got the right tone tonight on Scotland Tonight. Admitted he doesn’t agree with Starmer. I suspect his backbenchers had words.
Needs to not go into hiding for 24 hours when things are happening though but better non the less.


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Did you see Scottish Labour's party political broadcast last night? Titled Scottish Labour but no Sarwar to be seen, only Starmer.

[James310]

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Do you have the same issues with the 14 other signatories?

12 of the 14 organisations funded by the Scottish Government.

https://archive.ph/f0kR9


"Gender bill lobbyists get millions from SNP"

"Scottish charities and civic groups that criticised the Westminster government’s decision to block Holyrood’s gender recognition laws receive millions in funding from the SNP-led administration"

I wonder if there is one single Scottish Government funded charity or civic group that is critical of the Bill? I haven't seen any.

Imagine if this was the Tory's funding these groups and they were coming out against the Bill supporting the UK Gov position, would the reaction really be nothing to see here, I am sure they are all impartial and don't let their funding situation influence their views? Either deliberately or via an unconscious bias. I would say that's highly unlikely, yet we seem to think it won't happen in Scotland but of course it would happen in England.

[Kato]

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12 of the 14 organisations funded by the Scottish Government.

https://archive.ph/f0kR9


"Gender bill lobbyists get millions from SNP"

"Scottish charities and civic groups that criticised the Westminster government’s decision to block Holyrood’s gender recognition laws receive millions in funding from the SNP-led administration"

I wonder if there is one single Scottish Government funded charity or civic group that is critical of the Bill? I haven't seen any.

Imagine if this was the Tory's funding these groups and they were coming out against the Bill supporting the UK Gov position, would the reaction really be nothing to see here, I am sure they are all impartial and don't let their funding situation influence their views? Either deliberately or via an unconscious bias. I would say that's highly unlikely, yet we seem to think it won't happen in Scotland but of course it would happen in England.

What do you think should happen to these Scottish Govt funded charities?



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[Ozyhibby]

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12 of the 14 organisations funded by the Scottish Government.

https://archive.ph/f0kR9


"Gender bill lobbyists get millions from SNP"

"Scottish charities and civic groups that criticised the Westminster government’s decision to block Holyrood’s gender recognition laws receive millions in funding from the SNP-led administration"

I wonder if there is one single Scottish Government funded charity or civic group that is critical of the Bill? I haven't seen any.

Imagine if this was the Tory's funding these groups and they were coming out against the Bill supporting the UK Gov position, would the reaction really be nothing to see here, I am sure they are all impartial and don't let their funding situation influence their views? Either deliberately or via an unconscious bias. I would say that's highly unlikely, yet we seem to think it won't happen in Scotland but of course it would happen in England.

Do the SNP also fund Scottish Labour and the Scottish Lib Dems?
Is there any part of civic Scotland that supports the use of a s35 order by the Tories?


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[James310]

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What do you think should happen to these Scottish Govt funded charities?



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If they are being influenced in even the smallest way by their funding sources that should cease.

[James310]

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Do the SNP also fund Scottish Labour and the Scottish Lib Dems?
Is there any part of civic Scotland that supports the use of a s35 order by the Tories?


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Do the SNP fund Labour and Lib Dems, I hope not.

[CropleyWasGod]

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12 of the 14 organisations funded by the Scottish Government.

https://archive.ph/f0kR9


"Gender bill lobbyists get millions from SNP"

"Scottish charities and civic groups that criticised the Westminster government’s decision to block Holyrood’s gender recognition laws receive millions in funding from the SNP-led administration"

I wonder if there is one single Scottish Government funded charity or civic group that is critical of the Bill? I haven't seen any.

Imagine if this was the Tory's funding these groups and they were coming out against the Bill supporting the UK Gov position, would the reaction really be nothing to see here, I am sure they are all impartial and don't let their funding situation influence their views? Either deliberately or via an unconscious bias. I would say that's highly unlikely, yet we seem to think it won't happen in Scotland but of course it would happen in England.

I have personal experience of many of these groups speaking out and campaigning against the Government on 5 separate occasions.

They didn't lose their funding over those. And rightly so. They spoke their mind, based on their own experience, just as they are now.

[Bristolhibby]

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You are familiar with the term 'bisexuality' right?

Or Pan-sexuality? Or being non binary, or gender fluid?

Lots of grey.

J

[James310]

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I have personal experience of many of these groups speaking out and campaigning against the Government on 5 separate occasions.

They didn't lose their funding over those. And rightly so.

I am sure for many things they do, but on this occasion and in the past something doesn't add up. The accusations of the committee stage being stacked in favour of pro GRA activists and those against it being ignored or not even being called to give evidence. The multiple warnings about how this would impact the Equality Legislation in the UK widely ignored as well and then a coordinated response from SG funded groups all supporting the SG. You add it all together and it doesn't sit well.

I accept I have zero proof so I can't say this for a fact but when you look at this and add in everything else about the GRA it doesn't sit well.

Again only an opinion but it feels like a group of extreme trans activists have hijacked the Bill, people like Maggie Chapman, and they have taken the Scottish Government with them on the ride as seemingly willing participants.

I do wonder if there had been a free vote would we have seen more SNP and Labour MSPs vote against it. I saw one SNP MSPs basically say he had to vote for it as it was a whipped vote.

[CropleyWasGod]

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I am sure for many things they do, but on this occasion and in the past something doesn't add up. The accusations of the committee stage being stacked in favour of pro GRA activists and those against it being ignored or not even being called to give evidence. The multiple warnings about how this would impact the Equality Legislation in the UK widely ignored as well and then a coordinated response from SG funded groups all supporting the SG. You add it all together and it doesn't sit well.

I accept I have zero proof so I can't say this for a fact but when you look at this and add in everything else about the GRA it doesn't sit well.

Again only an opinion but it feels like a group of extreme trans activists have hijacked the Bill, people like Maggie Chapman, and they have taken the Scottish Government with them on the ride as seemingly willing participants.

I do wonder if there had been a free vote would we have seen more SNP and Labour MSPs vote against it. I saw one SNP MSPs basically say he had to vote for it as it was a whipped vote.

Agreed.

[James310]

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Agreed.

It all about opinions isn't it. Most of the time.

[hibby rae]

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How about running the country in a way that benefits most of its residents? Radical.

Other parties, other Tory governments, have never done it to this extent. To the extent it benefits only the party, and they are damaging the state as a result.

*Meant to reply to the other poster 😉

[Kato]

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If they are being influenced in even the smallest way by their funding sources that should cease.

What a parochial little vendetta you wage.

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