The Trans Rights Debate

[Stairway 2 7]

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As far as I’m aware you are legally an adult in Scotland at 16. They can vote in Scottish Parliamentary Elections and Scottish Council elections.

Stands to reason they would know their own body, having lived in it for over 16 years.

J

But government think they are too young to gamble because they aren't mature enough, or sensibly use a sunbed. No bother

Not old enough to sensibly be on a jury, adult

[TrumpIsAPeado]

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Remember that Sandesh Gulhane, Scottish conservative health spokesperson voted for the legislation. A doctor agrees with the legislation but his bosses in London are disagreeing with his expertise on health!

"I think the people of this country have had enough of experts" - Graeme Logan (AKA Michael Gove)

[Stairway 2 7]

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"I think the people of this country have had enough of experts" - Graeme Logan (AKA Michael Gove)

You can put 50 bona fide experts that will disagree on both sides of most debates. Pick an expert, quote him her, prove your point.

Look at the two from the un that were opposite sides on this debate

[James310]

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As far as I’m aware you are legally an adult in Scotland at 16. They can vote in Scottish Parliamentary Elections and Scottish Council elections.

Stands to reason they would know their own body, having lived in it for over 16 years.

J

The law is all over the place here, also in Scotland you were supposed to have a Named Person until you were 18 as you were not mature enough to basically look after yourself. Also in Scotland we made a decision to urge court's not to send under 25s to prison as their brains were not mature enough.

It seems all over the place and probably the same across the UK.

[Santa Cruz]

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Lots of things you can do at 18 and not at 16.

I like what New Zealand are doing with cigarettes. Slowly raising the age of buying cigarettes, so eventually they will be illegal.

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/20...moking-by-2025

Agree, that's excellent what N. Zealand are doing.

[Ozyhibby]

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Agree, that's excellent what N. Zealand are doing.

I agree they should aim to reduce smoking but prohibition is a terrible idea. Never worked for alcohol. Doesn’t work for drugs. Complete gift to organised crime.


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[Santa Cruz]

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I agree they should aim to reduce smoking but prohibition is a terrible idea. Never worked for alcohol. Doesn’t work for drugs. Complete gift to organised crime.


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It's a gradual reduction approach so worth trying imo.

[James310]

The Dean of the Faculty of Advocates and a Kings Council lawyer explains why this is not an "attack on democracy". A S35 is part of the devolution settlement, how can it be anti democratic when it's democracy in action as it's part of the Scotland Act. If a S35 is being used inappropriately then the courts will intervene.

https://twitter.com/RoddyQC/status/1...7kE79IL9g&s=19

Oh, and the SNP voted for the current devolution settlement.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://mobile.twitter.com/MalcolmCh...58579715465218

Malcolm chisholm argues section 35 was integral to Donald dewars vision.

Equality isn't devolved. They say it doesn't effect it. Scottish government said in court the bill impacts the Equality Act ‘for all purposes'.

It's basically a legal case now, we'll see who is correct. The former Advocate General for Scotland and a constitutional law expert believes section 35 is correct

https://policyexchange.org.uk/public...n-reform-bill/

[Ozyhibby]

Tories seem to be debating the merits of the bill already passed in the Scottish parliament in the UK parliament? I thought this was a legal objection?


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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/joannaccherry/st...LezQPzAT_IhN4A

Well done Joanna Cherry


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[James310]

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https://twitter.com/joannaccherry/st...LezQPzAT_IhN4A

We’ll done Joanna Cherry


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So you agree it needs fixed? Why did they vote on a broken Bill then?

[Ozyhibby]

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So you agree it needs fixed? Why did they vote on a broken Bill then?

No, I just agree that it is a matter for the Scottish parliament.


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[ronaldo7]

Alistair Jack failing to give the reasons for his section 35, and disrespecting the UK parliament. He'll publish a statement of reasons later today.

[James310]

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No, I just agree that it is a matter for the Scottish parliament.


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It's surely already within the gift of the Scottish Parliament to fix it, make some amendments and everyone is happy.

[Ozyhibby]

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It's surely already within the gift of the Scottish Parliament to fix it, make some amendments and everyone is happy.

It doesn’t need fixed.


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[He's here!]

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Sometimes you’ve got to do the right thing for the smallest and most marginalised in our community. Just because it’s the right thing to do.

Not everything is a popularity contest, and may not be in line with public opinion.

J

I'm not aware of anyone arguing against doing the right thing for trans rights, but when the means of trying to so clearly impact adversely on women's rights (and open up potentially dangerous avenues for children) that can't be the right thing to do.

While those flaws within the legislation have generated plenty of heat, they're not what's at the heart of the government's decision to block it. It's a simple legal issue, whereby the bill clearly impacts on the Equality Act. A 'constitutional outrage' it is not. The SG have simply been badly advised if they felt this legislation would go unchallenged.

[He's here!]

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It doesn’t need fixed.


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You applaud Cherry (someone you usually scorn) when she says the bill needs fixed in Scotland but then claim it doesn't need fixed. How does that work?

[Berwickhibby]

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It doesn’t need fixed.


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Really, perhaps you will be able to say that to any victims assaulted by a predator. There has to be some sort of checks and balances written in to the Act, which most agree is a good idea for the Trans community, just poorly executed.

[James310]

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It doesn’t need fixed.


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So why did you applaud Joanne Cherry?

[ronaldo7]

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The Dean of the Faculty of Advocates and a Kings Council lawyer explains why this is not an "attack on democracy". A S35 is part of the devolution settlement, how can it be anti democratic when it's democracy in action as it's part of the Scotland Act. If a S35 is being used inappropriately then the courts will intervene.

https://twitter.com/RoddyQC/status/1...7kE79IL9g&s=19

Oh, and the SNP voted for the current devolution settlement.

Is he still here. I thought he was moving to England because he was getting taxed too much.

The MOU in 2012 on the Scotland act signed by all parties agreed that a section 35 is a last resort and shouldn't be used.

I suppose it's like the Sewell convention which is disregarded when the UK parliament want to.

[JeMeSouviens]

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You applaud Cherry (someone you usually scorn) when she says the bill needs fixed in Scotland but then claim it doesn't need fixed. How does that work?

Because she disagrees with the content of the bill but respects the right of Holyrood to pass it.

[weecounty hibby]

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Really, perhaps you will be able to say that to any victims assaulted by a predator. There has to be some sort of checks and balances written in to the Act, which most agree is a good idea for the Trans community, just poorly executed.

See that polis in London who has just admitted to being a predator who assaulted multiple women multiple times. What did he identify as? I would suggest that, based on just news reports, that someone identifying as a policeman is more dangerous by to women than someone trans identifying as a woman. How do those checks and balances work?

[ronaldo7]

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Don't support it? Or fundamentally fail to understand what the bill is even about?

Every day I see people squabbling in their echo chambers over social media, whinging about "law changes", that unbeknown to themselves, have been in place in Scotland for over 12 years.

It ultimately shouldn't matter if a majority of people "don't care about it". A majority of people in Scotland are not transgender. But the rights of transgender people will be recognized, as should be the case for all groups of society, large and small.

Good post.

I noticed however, post didn't get much traction. Probably because 12 years ago they weren't bothered. Two pages on, we've still got people talking about toilets.

[JeMeSouviens]

From the Guardian:

Ben Bradshaw (Lab) says Jack in his statement did not give a clear explanation as to why the Scottish bill undermines the Equality Act. It is not enough for Jack to say he will publish something. Can he explain it now? And what will the government do about foreign nationals who come to the UK from countries that have a form of self-recognition.

On the latter point, Jack says the equalities minister has done a written statement on this.

Jack says the statement of reasons explains how the Scottish bill would impact on two UK laws. He does not want to “bore everyone to death” by going through those reasons now, he says.

Sounds like Alister's razor sharp mind is right on top of his brief as usual.

[He's here!]

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Once again, all of these unfounded fears of women being in some kind of imminent danger are based on laws that have been in force in Scotland since 2010 under the Equality Act. Where are all the horror stories of predator males in drag committing assaults on women in female safe spaces over the past 12 years?

It's a strawman argument, as it has nothing in retaliation to the Gender Recognition Bill which changes nothing in regards to the use of female safe spaces by transgender people, which again is covered by the 2010 Equality Act.

The 'nothing has changed' mantra brings to mind Theresa May...and I don't see how anyone can claim that a bill which removes all safeguards when it comes to a male being recognised as a woman in law changes nothing. Were this bill to become law a man who says he is a woman literally is one in every sense. The 'living in your acquired gender' stipulation is meaningless as no Scottish government minister has been able to say what this actually means. Couple that with the serious concerns around children being able to change their legal sex and it's pretty clear why there's such strong opposition to a bill with such potentially dangerous implications.

[James310]

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Because she disagrees with the content of the bill but respects the right of Holyrood to pass it.

She said it needs fixed in Scotland which suggests it was broken. Holyrood can still pass it with some amendments from what I understand.

[Berwickhibby]

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See that polis in London who has just admitted to being a predator who assaulted multiple women multiple times. What did he identify as? I would suggest that, based on just news reports, that someone identifying as a policeman is more dangerous by to women than someone trans identifying as a woman. How do those checks and balances work?

Not disagreeing, the beast needs punished and should have been caught and charged years ago. However case of a trans woman here in Fife attacking little girls in supermarket toilets… not one size fits all, but obviously, imho prevention is better than a cure.

[Stairway 2 7]

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See that polis in London who has just admitted to being a predator who assaulted multiple women multiple times. What did he identify as? I would suggest that, based on just news reports, that someone identifying as a policeman is more dangerous by to women than someone trans identifying as a woman. How do those checks and balances work?

Yep almost all sex attacks are committed by men. That's why I believe biological women should have safe spaces, particularly shelters and rape crisis ect.

[grunt]

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She said it needs fixed in Scotland which suggests it was broken.

No, it just means that she doesn't agree with all of it.