The Trans Rights Debate

[Moulin Yarns]

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Not sure you answered that question, so what made you come to the conclusion it doesn't impact UK law?

Try explaining why it does!

[archie]

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If you want to use a car analogy, a better one would be the Scottish govt changed the mot test but the result had to be accepted in E&W.

Yup, makes the point.

[James310]

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Try explaining why it does!

You said "it doesn't effect the other nations of the UK" how did you come to that conclusion?

You don't know do you?

[Ozyhibby]

Forgetting the act itself for a minute, what’s the process for a s35 order? I take it it will go to court but who is it that will have to bring the case?


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[Moulin Yarns]

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You said "it doesn't effect the other nations of the UK" how did you come to that conclusion?

You don't know do you?

It doesn't affect the rights of transgender people in England, Wales or anywhere else. All that the legislation will change is make it less traumatic and difficult for transgender people to be recognised for who they are.

Mark Drakeford has said that Scotland has made the right decision and I suppose Wales will look to introducing similar legislation meaning that Westminster is out of step with the rest of the UK.

[James310]

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It doesn't affect the rights of transgender people in England, Wales or anywhere else. All that the legislation will change is make it less traumatic and difficult for transgender people to be recognised for who they are.

Mark Drakeford has said that Scotland has made the right decision and I suppose Wales will look to introducing similar legislation meaning that Westminster is out of step with the rest of the UK.

But I am asking how you know that for a fact? So the UK Lawyers are wrong, why are they wrong?

[Moulin Yarns]

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But I am asking how you know that for a fact? So the UK Lawyers are wrong, why are they wrong?

And I've asked for your proof of what effect it has on transgender people in England? But I'm not expecting any because you don't know either.

[James310]

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And I've asked for your proof of what effect it has on transgender people in England? But I'm not expecting any because you don't know either.

The difference is I never claimed it did, I would wait until the actual lawyers make their review clear.

You seemed certain it has no effect on UK legislation so I asked how you knew that, so it turns out you don't know at all and you are basically guessing.

[JeMeSouviens]

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Forgetting the act itself for a minute, what’s the process for a s35 order? I take it it will go to court but who is it that will have to bring the case?


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I think Alister Jack can jet in from his grouse moor and do it himself without needing a court.

[CropleyWasGod]

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But I am asking how you know that for a fact? So the UK Lawyers are wrong, why are they wrong?

I think the issue is that there has been a lot of talk about a clash in the laws. But no-one has said "HOW" that alleged clash plays out in terms of how it affects people in Scotland, in language that we can all understand.

If we had that, perhaps the debate could be had on a decent basis.

[James310]

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I think the issue is that there has been a lot of talk about a clash in the laws. But no-one has said "HOW" that alleged clash plays out in terms of how it affects people in Scotland.

If we had that, perhaps the debate could be had on a decent basis.

That's why I challenge people who make statements as fact, how can they know? Turns out they don't.

If you are going to say it doesn't impact UK laws I wanted to know how that conclusion was made.

[CropleyWasGod]

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That's why I challenge people who make statements as fact, how can they know? Turns out they don't.

If you are going to say it doesn't impact UK laws I wanted to know how that conclusion was made.

On the flip side, if people are going to say (or assume) that there is an impact, we need to know their basis for doing so.

[James310]

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On the flip side, if people are going to say (or assume) that there is an impact, we need to know their basis for doing so.

And what's what we are waiting to find out. If no impact we move on and the Bill gets Royal Assent. The reports seems to suggest it won't be as simple as that.

[danhibees1875]

If I decide to recognise as a woman using the new rules in Scotland do I use woman's changing facilities when in Newcastle even though English law wouldn't have allowed me to recognise as a woman?

Is that the/a problem?

[CropleyWasGod]

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If I decide to recognise as a woman using the new rules in Scotland do I use woman's changing facilities when in Newcastle even though English law wouldn't have allowed me to recognise as a woman?

Is that the/a problem?

AIUI, you can do that anyway, under current GRA (English and Scottish) and EA legislation. Equally, under the EA, the other users of that space can ask for you to be excluded.

The new GRRA doesn't change that for the Newcastle situation. It's the intention of the GRRA that it won't change in Scotland either.

[danhibees1875]

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AIUI, you can do that anyway, under current GRA (English and Scottish) and EA legislation. Equally, under the EA, the other users of that space can ask for you to be excluded.

The new GRRA doesn't change that for the Newcastle situation. It's the intention of the GRRA that it won't change in Scotland either.

Hmm, thanks- but i think it's beyond me now.

[He's here!]

[QUOTE=weecounty hibby;7233924]

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I think you are overplaying the "strongly opposed by the public in Scotland". I genuinely have had one conversation about this with one other person while this has been going on. It was actually a really good discussion about it and we both agreed that we dont know enough about the subject and we could see pros and cons on both sides of the debate. It's just not an issue that is discussed day to day by folk in my experience

Would you say one conversation with one other person is a good barometer of public opinion?

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politi...gn=Social_Flow

The end of devolution.


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[ronaldo7]

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politi...gn=Social_Flow

The end of devolution.


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Let's see which MSPs have a backbone.

[He's here!]

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Try explaining why it does!

The GRR, which removes any sort of checks and balances when it comes to applying for a GRC, will (if it receives royal assent) apply only in Scotland. However, it's the SG's contention that GRCs issued under the new law should be accepted anywhere in the rest of the UK, where regulation around GRCs is stricter. On that basis any institution outwith Scotland refusing to recognise these GRCs would potentially be in breach of the Equality Act. An example would be a male prisoner from Scotland in an English/Welsh/NI prison receiving a Scottish GRC and requesting a move to a women's prison. Essentially, the SG are trying to amend UK equality law.

Personally I remain unclear why, if equality matters are reserved, why this bill ever saw the light of day at Holyrood.

I suspect Sunak was hoping one of the feminist groups which campaigned so hard against the legislation would get him off the hook here and initiate legal proceedings, but I gather funding for such a challenge is short following their previous legal battles with the SG.

What should certainly not happen is for bad law (which this bill is) to pass unchallenged simply because Westminster are worried that might be a bad look. They should draw confidence from polling which shows majority public opposition to hhe bill and give Sturgeon the fight she's so clearly spoiling for. She may not end up looking too clever.

Edit: I see they have now done just that.

[WeeRussell]

[QUOTE=weecounty hibby;7233924]

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I think you are overplaying the "strongly opposed by the public in Scotland". I genuinely have had one conversation about this with one other person while this has been going on. It was actually a really good discussion about it and we both agreed that we dont know enough about the subject and we could see pros and cons on both sides of the debate. It's just not an issue that is discussed day to day by folk in my experience

Very good point this. It’s why I’ve pretty much stayed out of this thread too.

As someone who usually has no problem forming a strong opinion and arguing stubbornly about it (even with limited knowledge) 😁, I find this topic really difficult.

As always, there will be some loud people on both sides, and some with genuine reasoning. But for me it’s about the toughest political debate I can remember in terms of having a strong view on one side or the other.

And no doubt some of those loudest voices will have their strong opinion based on “sturgeon” seeing as being on the opposite side.

[Ozyhibby]

Now that we can’t pass legislation that the Tories in England don’t like, I’m wondering what the point of the parliament is?


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[He's here!]

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politi...gn=Social_Flow

The end of devolution.


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Hardly. Sturgeon looks to have over-reached when it comes to Holyrood's devolved powers here and the UK government's move is perfectly within the provisions of the Scotland Act.

[Ozyhibby]

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Hardly. Sturgeon looks to have over-reached when it comes to Holyrood's devolved powers here and the UK government's move is perfectly within the provisions of the Scotland Act.

Who has over reached has still to be determined.


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[James310]

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Hardly. Sturgeon looks to have over-reached when it comes to Holyrood's devolved powers here and the UK government's move is perfectly within the provisions of the Scotland Act.

6 years in the making, most consulted Bill in the Scottish Parliament and they can't even check if the legislation is compatible with UK law. What were they doing for 6 years?

[Ozyhibby]

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6 years in the making, most consulted Bill in the Scottish Parliament and they can't even check if the legislation is compatible with UK law. What were they doing for 6 years?

It is compatible with UK law. They went to court over exactly that.


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[James310]

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It is compatible with UK law. They went to court over exactly that.


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Who did?

[CropleyWasGod]

A s35 Order requires that its precise legal basis be explained. That explanation will (or should) be published when Jack lays the order before Parliament.

Once that has been established, IMO the likelihood is that the next move will be in the Court of Session.

[LunasBoots]

Slowly Scotlands rights will be no more, the democratic Scottish Parliamentoveruled because Westminster dont like it, welcome to Brexit Britain.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.stonewall.org.uk/about-u...on-reform-bill

No real point posting this stuff I suppose. It’s now a constitutional issue.


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