The Trans Rights Debate

[Glory Lurker]

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It may have been a Scottish Parliamentary Bill but it was clear it would have nationwide repercussions. I know Ian Murray was heavily involved behind the scenes in helping to co-ordinate Scottish Labour's strategy (such as it was) on this issue.

It might well have repercussions beyond our border, but isn't that the case with every devolved issue? Sounds like the old anti-devo Labour is getting the band back together.

[CropleyWasGod]

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As I posted earlier in the thread I don't think he's been clued up enough from the start on this and has ended up creating all sorts of confusion today re his party's stance.

This could be said about so much of his attitude to Scotland.

I presume he'll be slapping down Mark Drakeford, given his support for similar reforms in Wales.

[He's here!]

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It might well have repercussions beyond our border, but isn't that the case with every devolved issue? Sounds like the old anti-devo Labour is getting the band back together.

Aren't the consequences of most devolved decisions (eg in education or healthcare) Scotland's alone to own? Rare, I think, for law passed by a devolved legislature to impact on UK-wide law (in this case the Equality Act).

[James310]

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It might well have repercussions beyond our border, but isn't that the case with every devolved issue? Sounds like the old anti-devo Labour is getting the band back together.

I would say no, the Scottish Parliament cannot pass legislation that impacts UK wide legislation. We saw that with the UN Children's Rights Bill and of course the Referendum Bill. The Scottish Parliament is free to make law that impacts Scotland but not UK legislation. If that was the case the Scottish Parliament could do whatever it wanted and make whatever laws it wanted without due regard to the UK, which would make no sense.

Smoking ban, smacking ban, baby box, new benefits etc are all for Scotland only.

I don't think it's unreasonable for the UK Government based on legal advice to say make some amendments to the Bill to make it work for Scotland and the UK.

[Ozyhibby]

[QUOTE=James310;7233680]I would say no, the Scottish Parliament cannot pass legislation that impacts UK wide legislation. We saw that with the UN Children's Rights Bill and of course the Referendum Bill. The Scottish Parliament is free to make law that impacts Scotland but not UK legislation. If that was the case the Scottish Parliament could do whatever it wanted and make whatever laws it wanted without due regard to the UK, which would make no sense.

Smoking ban, smacking ban, baby box, new benefits etc are all for Scotland only.

I don't think it's unreasonable for the UK Government based on legal advice to say make some amendments to the Bill to make it work for Scotland and


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[James310]

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Why is Ireland allowed to then?


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Does Ireland issue British Passports and documents like that?

[Ozyhibby]

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Does Ireland issue British Passports and documents like that?

Happy to take that burden away from them if they like.


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[James310]

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Happy to take that burden away from them if they like.


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Ireland is not on the list anyway.

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...nd-territories

[Hibrandenburg]

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Why do Scottish Labour need to know where they stand from London? Can they not think for themselves?


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They're not genetically programmed to do things like that.

[ronaldo7]

[QUOTE=Ozyhibby;7233691]

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I would say no, the Scottish Parliament cannot pass legislation that impacts UK wide legislation. We saw that with the UN Children's Rights Bill and of course the Referendum Bill. The Scottish Parliament is free to make law that impacts Scotland but not UK legislation. If that was the case the Scottish Parliament could do whatever it wanted and make whatever laws it wanted without due regard to the UK, which would make no sense.

Smoking ban, smacking ban, baby box, new benefits etc are all for Scotland only.

I don't think it's unreasonable for the UK Government based on legal advice to say make some amendments to the Bill to make it work for Scotland and


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The UK Gov accepted the drink drive limits in Scotland which are lower than England, Wales and NI.

This whole UK thing is a ruse.

Cross the border at your peril.

[James310]

[QUOTE=ronaldo7;7233856]

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The UK Gov accepted the drink drive limits in Scotland which are lower than England, Wales and NI.

This whole UK thing is a ruse.

Cross the border at your peril.

So when Scotland changed the law on the limit did it also impact the existing UK laws? No, it never. It only impacts people in Scotland who are driving in Scotland.

It's not just about accepting a GRC it's about the impact on Equality Legislation.

[ronaldo7]

[QUOTE=James310;7233860]

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So when Scotland changed the law on the limit did it also impact the existing UK laws? No, it never. It only impacts people in Scotland who are driving in Scotland.

It's not just about accepting a GRC it's about the impact on Equality Legislation.

It's about accepting the law of the country you are in and who's presenting to you.

Some don't want to of course, but I suppose we'll have to see what they come up with in the equality legislation to make their case.

Any idea why Idaho, and Texas are not on the same UK list as California?

I've got a UK driving licence, not a Scottish one.

[danhibees1875]

Maybe a daft question, what's the impact on the other UK nations?

Is it that someone recognised as having changed gender (using the new Scottish criteria) then has to be recognised as that gender when it comes to reserved areas (passport issue for instance)?

[James310]

[QUOTE=ronaldo7;7233867]

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It's about accepting the law of the country you are in and who's presenting to you.

Some don't want to of course, but I suppose we'll have to see what they come up with in the equality legislation to make their case.

Any idea why Idaho, and Texas are not on the same UK list as California?

Exactly, so you accept the UK law when you are erm part of the UK. This is strongly opposed by the public in Scotland, it's not unreasonable for the UK Government to ask to open dialogue with the Scottish Government on the back of legal advice.

Normally if the UK Government ignored legal advice you and fellow Yes voters would be outraged, imagine if the Supreme Court has said a referendum had be held legally in Scotland and the UK Government just ignored that legal advice and did nothing.

No idea on your last point.

[ronaldo7]

[QUOTE=James310;7233875]

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Exactly, so you accept the UK law when you are erm part of the UK. This is strongly opposed by the public in Scotland, it's not unreasonable for the UK Government to ask to open dialogue with the Scottish Government on the back of legal advice. If they ignored that legal advice yoo would be having a go, but now you want them to ignore this legal advice.

Normally if the UK Government ignored legal advice you and fellow Yes voters would be outraged, imagine if the Supreme Court has said a referendum had be held legally in Scotland and the UK Government just ignored that legal advice and did nothing.

No idea on your last point.

Edited my last post.

I've got a UK driving licence but have different laws within the UK on how I can drink and drive.

[James310]

[QUOTE=ronaldo7;7233883]

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Edited my last post.

I've got a UK driving licence but have different laws within the UK on how I can drink and drive.

Who issued your Driving license? What equality laws are related to you driving?

[ronaldo7]

[QUOTE=James310;7233890]

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Who issued your Driving license? What equality laws are related to you driving?

Why should someone in England be allowed to drink more before driving. It's not equal is it.

Surely the UK Gov should have intervened when the Scottish Parliament changed the rights of UK citizens from 80 to 50, or maybe they just know that people presenting with a GRC should be accepted

[James310]

[QUOTE=ronaldo7;7233904]

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Why should someone in England be allowed to drink more before driving. It's not equal is it.

Surely the UK Gov should have intervened when the Scottish Parliament changed the rights of UK citizens from 80 to 50, or maybe they just know that people having a GRC should be accepted

As I said the drink driving limit was changed in Scotland to impact only people driving in Scotland and I don't think it's comparable to compare it to something as fundamental as the GRA. Some things are devolved and some things aren't, Equality Legislation isn't.

As I say you would be outraged if the UK Gov ignored legal advice on lots of other matters but you are actively encouraging them to ignore this legal advice. It's not a very consistent position.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Maybe a daft question, what's the impact on the other UK nations?

Is it that someone recognised as having changed gender (using the new Scottish criteria) then has to be recognised as that gender when it comes to reserved areas (passport issue for instance)?

It's not about the other nations as such.

It's about the alleged clash between the GRRA and the UK EA, which might have implications for those living in Scotland.

I say "alleged", because I have yet to see, in layman's terms, any actual explanation of what that clash might be, particularly in light of the clause in the GRRA which gives the EA primacy.

[ronaldo7]

[QUOTE=James310;7233911]

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As I said the drink driving limit was changed in Scotland to impact only people driving in Scotland and I don't think it's comparable to compare it to something as fundamental as the GRA. Some things are devolved and some things aren't, Equality Legislation isn't.

As I say you would be outraged if the UK Gov ignored legal advice on lots of other matters but you are actively encouraging them to ignore this legal advice. It's not a very consistent position.

Last para.

You're doing it again. Thinking you know what my position is on a subject. That crystal ball of yours is wonky again.

Gonnae no dae that.

[Ozyhibby]

[QUOTE=James310;7233875]

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Exactly, so you accept the UK law when you are erm part of the UK. This is strongly opposed by the public in Scotland, it's not unreasonable for the UK Government to ask to open dialogue with the Scottish Government on the back of legal advice.

Normally if the UK Government ignored legal advice you and fellow Yes voters would be outraged, imagine if the Supreme Court has said a referendum had be held legally in Scotland and the UK Government just ignored that legal advice and did nothing.

No idea on your last point.

Strongly opposed in Scotland? Pretty sure I heard John Curtice on the radio last week saying the issue has had no cut through at all with the wider public? In fact he went as far as to say that it was a big political gamble for the unionist to use a s35 order for an issue that doesn’t move many votes either way.
So I would tend to agree with him that there is neither strong opposition or support.


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[weecounty hibby]

[QUOTE=James310;7233875]

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Exactly, so you accept the UK law when you are erm part of the UK. This is strongly opposed by the public in Scotland, it's not unreasonable for the UK Government to ask to open dialogue with the Scottish Government on the back of legal advice.

Normally if the UK Government ignored legal advice you and fellow Yes voters would be outraged, imagine if the Supreme Court has said a referendum had be held legally in Scotland and the UK Government just ignored that legal advice and did nothing.

No idea on your last point.

I think you are overplaying the "strongly opposed by the public in Scotland". I genuinely have had one conversation about this with one other person while this has been going on. It was actually a really good discussion about it and we both agreed that we dont know enough about the subject and we could see pros and cons on both sides of the debate. It's just not an issue that is discussed day to day by folk in my experience

[danhibees1875]

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It's not about the other nations as such.

It's about the alleged clash between the GRRA and the UK EA, which might have implications for those living in Scotland.

I say "alleged", because I have yet to see, in layman's terms, any actual explanation of what that clash might be, particularly in light of the clause in the GRRA which gives the EA primacy.

Thanks CWG.

[archie]

[QUOTE=ronaldo7;7233904]

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Why should someone in England be allowed to drink more before driving. It's not equal is it.

Surely the UK Gov should have intervened when the Scottish Parliament changed the rights of UK citizens from 80 to 50, or maybe they just know that people presenting with a GRC should be accepted

The issue would be if the Scottish Government tried to change the drink driving limit in England and Wales.

[James310]

[QUOTE=archie;7233991]

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The issue would be if the Scottish Government tried to change the drink driving limit in England and Wales.

Yes, which they never they only changed it in Scotland. It's not comparable to GRA.

I see quoting has gone all wonky again!

[Moulin Yarns]

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Yes, which they never they only changed it in Scotland. It's not comparable to GRA.

I see quoting has gone all wonky again!

The Scottish Government has only introduced the GRC change in Scotland, it doesn't affect the other nations of the UK. The Westminster government are once again trying to interfere in matters affecting Scotland.

[James310]

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The Scottish Government has only introduced the GRC change in Scotland, it doesn't affect the other nations of the UK. The Westminster government are once again trying to interfere in matters affecting Scotland.

So you are a lawyer now and know for a fact it doesn't impact UK Equality Legislation? How did you come to this conclusion?

[JeMeSouviens]

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The issue would be if the Scottish Government tried to change the drink driving limit in England and Wales.

If you want to use a car analogy, a better one would be the Scottish govt changed the mot test but the result had to be accepted in E&W.

[Moulin Yarns]

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So you are a lawyer now and know for a fact it doesn't impact UK Equality Legislation? How did you come to this conclusion?

I love the indignation about equality whilst denying equality for a very small minority of the population.


Let's have equality, but only one kind of equality!!

[James310]

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I love the indignation about equality whilst denying equality for a very small minority of the population.


Let's have equality, but only one kind of equality!!

Not sure you answered that question, so what made you come to the conclusion it doesn't impact UK law?