The Trans Rights Debate

[Berwickhibby]

I have no problem with the spirit of the act …but don’t see safeguards or checks to prevent predators abusing this legislation. The finger will definitely be pointed at the Scottish Government after the first attack or rape.

[He's here!]

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I have no problem with the spirit of the act …but don’t see safeguards or checks to prevent predators abusing this legislation. The finger will definitely be pointed at the Scottish Government after the first attack or rape.

Suspect we'll see a legal challenge before it's enacted. Joanna Cherry alluded to that yesterday when addressing the next steps for feminist groups.

[Moulin Yarns]

Spain also passes self-ID law for over-16s
Lawmakers in Spain passed a transgender rights bill on Thursday allowing anyone aged 16 and over to change gender on their national identity card.

The country's left-wing government and its feminist movement have clashed over the bill.

"Trans women are women," Spain's equality minister told parliament, and she denounced opposition to the law as transphobia.

However, some women's rights activists are opposed to individuals having a different gender to their sex assigned at birth.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://twitter.com/BBCPhilipSim/sta...KR6J02tdA&s=19

How they voted.

[Ozyhibby]

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https://twitter.com/BBCPhilipSim/sta...KR6J02tdA&s=19

How they voted.

The majority of women on the Labour benches voted for.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/new...box=1671723837


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[hibby rae]

I have no doubt those that voted for the GRA today will find themselves on the right side of history 👏👏👏

#transrightsarehumanrights

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I have no doubt those that voted for the GRA today will find themselves on the right side of history 👏👏👏

#transrightsarehumanrights

One of the most non-sensical expressions out there in an era of increasingly non-sensical expressions.

[Moulin Yarns]

Twitter abuzz about an opponent in the public gallery flashing their genitals.


However...



Turns out they were fake 🙄

From twitter

Pre-planning to flash fake genitalia in the Holyrood gallery is far, far weirder than flashing your actual genitalia in the heat of the moment

[hibby rae]

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Are there any women or trans-women taking part in this discussion on here, or is it all just guys having our say?

I've always assumed the latter. So I've always been a bit surprised it has went on to the extent it has. I don't think anyone here is what you would call an authority, or will be affected by the GRA, so how valid are the opinions?

*I include myself in that though, my view has always been trans people are some of the most marginalised in society. So maybe give them a break, as some of the arguments against them have been horrible

[Stairway 2 7]

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I've always assumed the latter. So I've always been a bit surprised it has went on to the extent it has. I don't think anyone here is what you would call an authority, or will be affected by the GRA, so how valid are the opinions?

*I include myself in that though, my view has always been trans people are some of the most marginalised in society. So maybe give them a break, as some of the arguments against them have been horrible

I don't think anyone could say any opinion here has been poor or transphobic.

I have a wife two daughters and a non verbal severely disabled cousin, so feel it certainly affects my family.

I would give trans people every right to change bar a couple of single sex instances, that would still be a massive step.

[hibby rae]

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I don't think anyone could say any opinion here has been poor or transphobic.

I have a wife two daughters and a non verbal severely disabled cousin, so feel it certainly affects my family.

I would give trans people every right to change bar a couple of single sex instances, that would still be a massive step.

I didn't say anyone had been transphobic, but no one here (as far as I'm aware) has any relevent lived experience, or any professional knowledge, or academic qualifications etc, which would add validity to their opinion (again, mine included).
But I also don't agree with your belief it will really affect anyone other than trans people.

[Moulin Yarns]

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I don't think anyone could say any opinion here has been poor or transphobic.

I have a wife two daughters and a non verbal severely disabled cousin, so feel it certainly affects my family.

I would give trans people every right to change bar a couple of single sex instances, that would still be a massive step.

Are these exceptions missing from the bill?

[Stairway 2 7]

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I didn't say anyone had been transphobic, but no one here (as far as I'm aware) has any relevent lived experience, or any professional knowledge, or academic qualifications etc, which would add validity to their opinion (again, mine included).
But I also don't agree with your belief it will really affect anyone other than trans people.

The disabled lady in the page previous that was petrified of having male bodied care as she wouldn't know if she had been abused. Her rights have changed now. It effects every woman. The cliche that this changes nothing is nonsense.

[archie]

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I didn't say anyone had been transphobic, but no one here (as far as I'm aware) has any relevent lived experience, or any professional knowledge, or academic qualifications etc, which would add validity to their opinion (again, mine included).
But I also don't agree with your belief it will really affect anyone other than trans people.

Just out of interest, what would you count as 'relevant lived experience'?

[Santa Cruz]

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The disabled lady in the page previous that was petrified of having male bodied care as she wouldn't know if she had been abused. Her rights have changed now. It effects every woman. The cliche that this changes nothing is nonsense.

Would she not be entitled to request a female chaperone present, in the same way I have been offered this for a number of procedures carried out by male doctors/clinicians? Personally, if I know the male and have built up trust I have declined the need for a chaperone, but if it was someone I had a first appt with I would accept the offer.

[Stairway 2 7]

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Would she not be entitled to request a female chaperone present, in the same way I have been offered this for a number of procedures carried out by male doctors/clinicians? Personally, if I know the male and have built up trust I have declined the need for a chaperone, but if it was someone I had a first appt with I would accept the offer.

No as the female giving the care can be a trans women, as they literally are female. It won't be seen as a man giving care

[archie]

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Would she not be entitled to request a female chaperone present, in the same way I have been offered this for a number of procedures carried out by male doctors/clinicians? Personally, if I know the male and have built up trust I have declined the need for a chaperone, but if it was someone I had a first appt with I would accept the offer.

It's not clear. If the person concerned has a GRC then they are considered as the sex that the GRC states. As it's a criminal offence to reveal if someone previously lived under another gender, then you would be unlikely to be told. The solution might be to offer chaperones in all cases. Whether that is a good use of rsources is another thing.

[ronaldo7]

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Twitter abuzz about an opponent in the public gallery flashing their genitals.


However...



Turns out they were fake 🙄

From twitter

Pre-planning to flash fake genitalia in the Holyrood gallery is far, far weirder than flashing your actual genitalia in the heat of the moment

Plenty on the twitterati saying one woman was flashing fake genitalia in the public gallery where children were present.

Sad if true.

[Betty Boop]

The bill needs Royal Assent surely ?

[He's here!]

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Nah, I think they just felt it was the right thing to do.
Of course, if Jack is stupid enough to go for this then nobody on the yes side will be disappointed.


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That's arguable. While I don't think even Sturgeon would spend six years hatching such a 'plot', she would find it harder to draw up constitutional battle lines around Westminster intervention on this when you bear in mind a majority of the public (which presumably includes yes voters) are against the legislation. Plenty would be relieved to see it challenged:

Public Opinion Polls - For Women Scotland

[He's here!]

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The majority of women on the Labour benches voted for.


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Scottish Labour were always dancing to Starmer's tune on this, which was why the bill's passing was never in doubt. I'm actually surprised a couple rebelled.

[James310]

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That's arguable. While I don't think even Sturgeon would spend six years hatching such a 'plot', she would find it harder to draw up constitutional battle lines around Westminster intervention on this when you bear in mind a majority of the public (which presumably includes yes voters) are against the legislation. Plenty would be relieved to see it challenged:

Public Opinion Polls - For Women Scotland

Indeed, not sure you can call someone stupid for upholding the law. The Scottish Government should by now know what is and isn't in it's competency.

As a majority of people and in some cases a majority of SNP voters oppose parts of the Bill it may be welcomed by some.

[J-C]

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Are there any women or trans-women taking part in this discussion on here, or is it all just guys having our say?

Depends how many women and trans gender are members of .net, seems a strange question to ask when there's little way of finding out.

[hibby rae]

This from Owen Jones, wholeheartedly agree with everything he says:

The Gender Recognition Reform Bill has passed the Scottish Parliament by 86 to 39.
This is a piece of legislation which will make the lives of trans people - one of the most marginalised minorities in society - a little bit easier.
Bravo to the 86.
The politicians who were the most outspoken, eloquent and determined in supporting the Gender Recognition Reform Bill were women.
Those women have been vilified, hounded, demonised and abused.
It's important to state this given the anti-trans movement claim to speak for women.
For several years, British society has been in the grip of an escalating anti-trans moral panic, whipped up by an increasingly radicalised anti-trans movement, and facilitated by a media industry which has never found a minority it won't hound.
In a long honoured tradition, too, politicians - mostly, but not exclusively on the Conservative benches - have sought to weaponise hostility against trans people to build their own careers, just as they've done with migrants, refugees, Muslims, gays - the list is endless.
The reality of life for trans people has been erased from this sordid so-called "debate".
That trans people are abused, bullied and attacked on our streets, in our workplaces, in schools, is ignored.
That many fear something as basic as using a public toilet: ignored.
That trans people are far more likely to be survivors of sexual violence than perpetrators is erased because of systematic and disgusting attempt to equate 'trans' and 'sexual predator' in the public domain.
That trans people suffer years waiting for gender affirming healthcare is erased, because the increasingly unhinged anti-trans movement has sought to deceive the public across the land that kids are having affirming surgery, spoken of in as lurid terms as possible.
We've been here before.
Gay and bi people were long portrayed as would-be sexual predators, threats to and brainwashers of children, defiers of the laws of biology, defined by mental illness, forcing the majority to kowtow to the whims of a tiny minority, and so on.
If you read the Parliamentary debates around, say, the partial decriminalisation of homosexuality, or the equalisation of the age of consent, you will find lots of inflammatory declarations, vile bigotry, cruelty - and gruesome predictions which never came to pass.
The same applies today.
The anti-trans movement are the inheritors of the torch of the anti-gay movement, who also spoken in terms of 'legitimate concerns', rejected claims of bigotry, even sometimes spoke of compassion and love towards gay people whose rights they denied.
The fact there are some lesbian, gay and bisexual people who now behave exactly the same as our tormentors behaved towards us is shameful - but, thankfully, our LGBTQ communities are overwhelmingly supportive of trans rights and will keep standing by our trans siblings.
The law passed in Scotland has been passed in 13 other countries.
As Kezia Dugdale noted: "The populations of these countries total 350 million people. That is one hell of a data set from which to find a pattern of the law being abused by predatory men."
If the horrifying predictions made by the anti-trans movement come to pass, then why aren't we inundated with case studies from those 13 countries?
The reason? Because this is just baseless scaremongering about a tiny besieged minority.
The anti-trans movement may say they really really do think that trans rights is a threat to women's rights, but the anti-gay movement really really did think that the gay rights movement was a threat to children.
Their sincerity was not an excuse.
One day - like those who once fought gay rights ate their words - opponents of trans rights will admit they got it wrong.
They will cry at the sad films and plays about this time.
But don't forget those trans people and their allies who fought when it was hard to do so.
The anti-trans movement has become a cesspit of hate and bigotry, and their facilitators in the media should be ashamed of themselves.
All they've achieved is to make the lives of trans people a bit harder. That's it! Literally no other accomplishment!
The question isn't whether trans people will one day achieve true acceptance - they will.
The question is "how much pointless avoidable hurt and pain will be inflicted along the way".
The anti-trans movement have an answer to this: A lot.
The main reason for the bitterness and anger driving the anti-trans movement is they know they are going to lose, and - however much this winds them up - history will damn them.
Countries will keep passing these laws - Spain has also passed one today.
The younger the age bracket, the more supportive of trans rights.
The fate of the anti-trans movement is straightforward: you will become increasing objects of contempt, scorn, derision.
You will lose, and you will be condemned forever. You have nothing else to look forward to.
But in the meantime, trans people will still be abused in our streets, menaced with violence, deprived of much-needed healthcare, targeted by the media and politicians.
So we all have a responsibility to stand by our trans siblings.
Trans rights - forever! 🏳️*⚧️🏳️*🌈

[He's here!]

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Indeed, not sure you can call someone stupid for upholding the law. The Scottish Government should by now know what is and isn't in it's competency.

As a majority of people and in some cases a majority of SNP voters oppose parts of the Bill it may be welcomed by some.

I'd imagine any Westminster intervention would focus on the potential cross-border logistical issues this legislation throws up. An initial legal challenge would seem most likely from feminist groups. Cherry's certainly not backing down and the likes of Rowling have the deep pockets to take things further.

[He's here!]

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This from Owen Jones, wholeheartedly agree with everything he says:

The Gender Recognition Reform Bill has passed the Scottish Parliament by 86 to 39.
This is a piece of legislation which will make the lives of trans people - one of the most marginalised minorities in society - a little bit easier.
Bravo to the 86.
The politicians who were the most outspoken, eloquent and determined in supporting the Gender Recognition Reform Bill were women.
Those women have been vilified, hounded, demonised and abused.
It's important to state this given the anti-trans movement claim to speak for women.
For several years, British society has been in the grip of an escalating anti-trans moral panic, whipped up by an increasingly radicalised anti-trans movement, and facilitated by a media industry which has never found a minority it won't hound.
In a long honoured tradition, too, politicians - mostly, but not exclusively on the Conservative benches - have sought to weaponise hostility against trans people to build their own careers, just as they've done with migrants, refugees, Muslims, gays - the list is endless.
The reality of life for trans people has been erased from this sordid so-called "debate".
That trans people are abused, bullied and attacked on our streets, in our workplaces, in schools, is ignored.
That many fear something as basic as using a public toilet: ignored.
That trans people are far more likely to be survivors of sexual violence than perpetrators is erased because of systematic and disgusting attempt to equate 'trans' and 'sexual predator' in the public domain.
That trans people suffer years waiting for gender affirming healthcare is erased, because the increasingly unhinged anti-trans movement has sought to deceive the public across the land that kids are having affirming surgery, spoken of in as lurid terms as possible.
We've been here before.
Gay and bi people were long portrayed as would-be sexual predators, threats to and brainwashers of children, defiers of the laws of biology, defined by mental illness, forcing the majority to kowtow to the whims of a tiny minority, and so on.
If you read the Parliamentary debates around, say, the partial decriminalisation of homosexuality, or the equalisation of the age of consent, you will find lots of inflammatory declarations, vile bigotry, cruelty - and gruesome predictions which never came to pass.
The same applies today.
The anti-trans movement are the inheritors of the torch of the anti-gay movement, who also spoken in terms of 'legitimate concerns', rejected claims of bigotry, even sometimes spoke of compassion and love towards gay people whose rights they denied.
The fact there are some lesbian, gay and bisexual people who now behave exactly the same as our tormentors behaved towards us is shameful - but, thankfully, our LGBTQ communities are overwhelmingly supportive of trans rights and will keep standing by our trans siblings.
The law passed in Scotland has been passed in 13 other countries.
As Kezia Dugdale noted: "The populations of these countries total 350 million people. That is one hell of a data set from which to find a pattern of the law being abused by predatory men."
If the horrifying predictions made by the anti-trans movement come to pass, then why aren't we inundated with case studies from those 13 countries?
The reason? Because this is just baseless scaremongering about a tiny besieged minority.
The anti-trans movement may say they really really do think that trans rights is a threat to women's rights, but the anti-gay movement really really did think that the gay rights movement was a threat to children.
Their sincerity was not an excuse.
One day - like those who once fought gay rights ate their words - opponents of trans rights will admit they got it wrong.
They will cry at the sad films and plays about this time.
But don't forget those trans people and their allies who fought when it was hard to do so.
The anti-trans movement has become a cesspit of hate and bigotry, and their facilitators in the media should be ashamed of themselves.
All they've achieved is to make the lives of trans people a bit harder. That's it! Literally no other accomplishment!
The question isn't whether trans people will one day achieve true acceptance - they will.
The question is "how much pointless avoidable hurt and pain will be inflicted along the way".
The anti-trans movement have an answer to this: A lot.
The main reason for the bitterness and anger driving the anti-trans movement is they know they are going to lose, and - however much this winds them up - history will damn them.
Countries will keep passing these laws - Spain has also passed one today.
The younger the age bracket, the more supportive of trans rights.
The fate of the anti-trans movement is straightforward: you will become increasing objects of contempt, scorn, derision.
You will lose, and you will be condemned forever. You have nothing else to look forward to.
But in the meantime, trans people will still be abused in our streets, menaced with violence, deprived of much-needed healthcare, targeted by the media and politicians.
So we all have a responsibility to stand by our trans siblings.
Trans rights - forever! 🏳️*⚧️🏳️*🌈

Usual supercilious preaching from Jones. Completely ignoring the fact that opposition to the bill does not revolve around an anti-trans agenda.

[Moulin Yarns]

Has anyone considered how this affects men where trans men might be in men's changing rooms or a man might be treated in clinical situation for, as an example, urology,, say fitting a catheter?


So far all the criticism appears to be based on trans women.

[Stairway 2 7]

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Has anyone considered how this affects men where trans men might be in men's changing rooms or a man might be treated in clinical situation for, as an example, urology,, say fitting a catheter?


So far all the criticism appears to be based on trans women.

Probably because almost all sexual assaults are committed by biological men. Almost every woman and girls has experienced inappropriate behaviour by men, it isn't the same vice versa.

[Ozyhibby]

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This from Owen Jones, wholeheartedly agree with everything he says:

The Gender Recognition Reform Bill has passed the Scottish Parliament by 86 to 39.
This is a piece of legislation which will make the lives of trans people - one of the most marginalised minorities in society - a little bit easier.
Bravo to the 86.
The politicians who were the most outspoken, eloquent and determined in supporting the Gender Recognition Reform Bill were women.
Those women have been vilified, hounded, demonised and abused.
It's important to state this given the anti-trans movement claim to speak for women.
For several years, British society has been in the grip of an escalating anti-trans moral panic, whipped up by an increasingly radicalised anti-trans movement, and facilitated by a media industry which has never found a minority it won't hound.
In a long honoured tradition, too, politicians - mostly, but not exclusively on the Conservative benches - have sought to weaponise hostility against trans people to build their own careers, just as they've done with migrants, refugees, Muslims, gays - the list is endless.
The reality of life for trans people has been erased from this sordid so-called "debate".
That trans people are abused, bullied and attacked on our streets, in our workplaces, in schools, is ignored.
That many fear something as basic as using a public toilet: ignored.
That trans people are far more likely to be survivors of sexual violence than perpetrators is erased because of systematic and disgusting attempt to equate 'trans' and 'sexual predator' in the public domain.
That trans people suffer years waiting for gender affirming healthcare is erased, because the increasingly unhinged anti-trans movement has sought to deceive the public across the land that kids are having affirming surgery, spoken of in as lurid terms as possible.
We've been here before.
Gay and bi people were long portrayed as would-be sexual predators, threats to and brainwashers of children, defiers of the laws of biology, defined by mental illness, forcing the majority to kowtow to the whims of a tiny minority, and so on.
If you read the Parliamentary debates around, say, the partial decriminalisation of homosexuality, or the equalisation of the age of consent, you will find lots of inflammatory declarations, vile bigotry, cruelty - and gruesome predictions which never came to pass.
The same applies today.
The anti-trans movement are the inheritors of the torch of the anti-gay movement, who also spoken in terms of 'legitimate concerns', rejected claims of bigotry, even sometimes spoke of compassion and love towards gay people whose rights they denied.
The fact there are some lesbian, gay and bisexual people who now behave exactly the same as our tormentors behaved towards us is shameful - but, thankfully, our LGBTQ communities are overwhelmingly supportive of trans rights and will keep standing by our trans siblings.
The law passed in Scotland has been passed in 13 other countries.
As Kezia Dugdale noted: "The populations of these countries total 350 million people. That is one hell of a data set from which to find a pattern of the law being abused by predatory men."
If the horrifying predictions made by the anti-trans movement come to pass, then why aren't we inundated with case studies from those 13 countries?
The reason? Because this is just baseless scaremongering about a tiny besieged minority.
The anti-trans movement may say they really really do think that trans rights is a threat to women's rights, but the anti-gay movement really really did think that the gay rights movement was a threat to children.
Their sincerity was not an excuse.
One day - like those who once fought gay rights ate their words - opponents of trans rights will admit they got it wrong.
They will cry at the sad films and plays about this time.
But don't forget those trans people and their allies who fought when it was hard to do so.
The anti-trans movement has become a cesspit of hate and bigotry, and their facilitators in the media should be ashamed of themselves.
All they've achieved is to make the lives of trans people a bit harder. That's it! Literally no other accomplishment!
The question isn't whether trans people will one day achieve true acceptance - they will.
The question is "how much pointless avoidable hurt and pain will be inflicted along the way".
The anti-trans movement have an answer to this: A lot.
The main reason for the bitterness and anger driving the anti-trans movement is they know they are going to lose, and - however much this winds them up - history will damn them.
Countries will keep passing these laws - Spain has also passed one today.
The younger the age bracket, the more supportive of trans rights.
The fate of the anti-trans movement is straightforward: you will become increasing objects of contempt, scorn, derision.
You will lose, and you will be condemned forever. You have nothing else to look forward to.
But in the meantime, trans people will still be abused in our streets, menaced with violence, deprived of much-needed healthcare, targeted by the media and politicians.
So we all have a responsibility to stand by our trans siblings.
Trans rights - forever! *⚧️*

The most important part of that.


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