The Trans Rights Debate

***Stairway 2 7*** · 22-12-2022 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by ronaldo7

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"Said previously"

Listened to the debate then came to a conclusion.

At no time though have I ever spoke against either women's or trans rights.

Patriarchy though.

So it now affects you after listening to the debate. It's only women's rights can be eroded here. In a year when abortion is banned in America and the situation in Iran and Afghanistan, I feel women's rights are stuck in reverse

***Stairway 2 7*** · 22-12-2022 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

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The ECHR, presumably.

Do you think we should follow all human rights rules even if we believe they are bad and erode human rights. I don't believe this does go against echr though and either does joanna cherry who has a good grasp

***Stairway 2 7*** · 22-12-2022 01:35 PM

People who have been campaigning against homaphobia being called homophobic is another weird one. The abuse including rape threats towards joanna cherry is brutal

https://mobile.twitter.com/ITVBorder...25053332115456

Joanna Cherry says she's been 'demonised' because of her opposition to the Gender Recognition Reform Bill, and marginalised within the SNP.

The SNP MP says she doesn't 'need lectures on homophobia or bigotry' from anyone in Holyrood

***CropleyWasGod*** · 22-12-2022 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

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Do you think we should follow all human rights rules even if we believe they are bad and erode human rights. I don't believe this does go against echr though and either does joanna cherry who has a good grasp

I'm not a lawyer, much less an expert in the ECHR, so I can't say.

I was merely suggesting why that particular amendment was defeated.

**JeMeSouviens** · 22-12-2022 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

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Do you think we should follow all human rights rules even if we believe they are bad and erode human rights. I don't believe this does go against echr though and either does joanna cherry who has a good grasp

If our parliament is legally obliged to follow them it has no choice. Afaik, the UK's equality act applies in Scotland and is reserved to Westminster.

**He's here!** · 22-12-2022 01:50 PM

'Approaching this using the dark arts of the whips was wrong,' says Michelle Thomson:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-s...ost_type=share

It would have been interesting to see how this went had all MSPs been allowed a free vote. Joanna Cherry seems convinced there are a number of SNP MSPs who feel too scared to go with their conscience.

**archie** · 22-12-2022 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

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If our parliament is legally obliged to follow them it has no choice. Afaik, the UK's equality act applies in Scotland and is reserved to Westminster.

I think there will be a complicated interaction between the two pieces of legislation, which may lead to UKG or legal intervention.

**~~ronaldo7~~** · 22-12-2022 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

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So it now affects you after listening to the debate. It's only women's rights can be eroded here. In a year when abortion is banned in America and the situation in Iran and Afghanistan, I feel women's rights are stuck in reverse

It affects everyone living in Scotland after today. I'm sure if you want to discuss women's rights you could start another thread. This one is about trans rights.

Parliament now suspended due to a woman shouting from the gallery.

***CropleyWasGod*** · 22-12-2022 01:53 PM

Away from the main debate.....

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...u-dies-aged-24

***Moulin Yarns*** · 22-12-2022 01:53 PM

It's a bit strange that there is cross party support, and even cooperation, for the bill, despite the large amount of amendments tabled, yet the debate on here seems to be divided along party lines?

**JeMeSouviens** · 22-12-2022 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by archie

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I think there will be a complicated interaction between the two pieces of legislation, which may lead to UKG or legal intervention.

Sounds like it.

***Stairway 2 7*** · 22-12-2022 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by ronaldo7

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It affects everyone living in Scotland after today. I'm sure if you want to discuss women's rights you could start another thread. This one is about trans rights.

Parliament now suspended due to a woman shouting from the gallery.

You really don't think this is about women's rights, that's unbelievable

***Stairway 2 7*** · 22-12-2022 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by He's here!

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'Approaching this using the dark arts of the whips was wrong,' says Michelle Thomson:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-s...ost_type=share

It would have been interesting to see how this went had all MSPs been allowed a free vote. Joanna Cherry seems convinced there are a number of SNP MSPs who feel too scared to go with their conscience.

Some pull that. Vote with your opinion and lose your career

**~~ronaldo7~~** · 22-12-2022 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

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It's a bit strange that there is cross party support, and even cooperation, for the bill, despite the large amount of amendments tabled, yet the debate on here seems to be divided along party lines?

I was heartened to see Michelle Thompson on the SNP list of speakers even although she was against the motion.

She didn't seemed to be scared to speak up.

**~~ronaldo7~~** · 22-12-2022 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

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You really don't think this is about women's rights, that's unbelievable

You mentioned women's rights being eroded, then spoke about Afghanistan and Iran.

I know what the debates about thanks. 👍

***Ozyhibby*** · 22-12-2022 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

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It's a bit strange that there is cross party support, and even cooperation, for the bill, despite the large amount of amendments tabled, yet the debate on here seems to be divided along party lines?

And compromises are being found and amendments accepted. Sounds like a great advert for our parliament.

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***Stairway 2 7*** · 22-12-2022 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by ronaldo7

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You mentioned women's rights being eroded, then spoke about Afghanistan and Iran.

I know what the debates about thanks. 👍

Eh

***Ozyhibby*** · 22-12-2022 02:05 PM

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***500miles*** · 22-12-2022 02:08 PM

If we could agree to draw a line between biological sex and gender, and legislation recognised that difference, there would be a hell of a lot less wailing and gnashing of teeth.

We won't though, because its neither in the interests of gender ideologues or homophobes.

***WhileTheChief..*** · 22-12-2022 02:22 PM

Are there any women or trans-women taking part in this discussion on here, or is it all just guys having our say?

**He's here!** · 22-12-2022 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by ronaldo7

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It affects everyone living in Scotland after today. I'm sure if you want to discuss women's rights you could start another thread. This one is about trans rights.

Parliament now suspended due to a woman shouting from the gallery.

The two are inseparable in this instance though, with the enhancement of one coming at the cost of eroding the other.

**He's here!** · 22-12-2022 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by ronaldo7

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What was questionable in the consultation process.

We've been at this for 6 long years. How much longer should we take to pass legislation?

Six years and even today not a single Scottish government minister has been able to define how, with no checks of any kind now required, what living in the opposite sex means in practice - an issue that lies at the very heart of the legislation. Absurd.

**archie** · 22-12-2022 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..

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Are there any women or trans-women taking part in this discussion on here, or is it all just guys having our say?

No idea.

**He's here!** · 22-12-2022 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by 500miles

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If we could agree to draw a line between biological sex and gender, and legislation recognised that difference, there would be a hell of a lot less wailing and gnashing of teeth.

We won't though, because its neither in the interests of gender ideologues or homophobes.

That line was drawn. This legislation has erased it. In Scotland there is no longer a clear answer to the question what is a woman. A utterly daft state of affairs.

***Ozyhibby*** · 22-12-2022 02:38 PM

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**archie** · 22-12-2022 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

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Maybe the SG plan all along?

***Ozyhibby*** · 22-12-2022 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by archie

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Maybe the SG plan all along?

Nah, I think they just felt it was the right thing to do.
Of course, if Jack is stupid enough to go for this then nobody on the yes side will be disappointed.

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***Stairway 2 7*** · 22-12-2022 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by archie

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Maybe the SG plan all along?

With a majority of women opposing parts of the bill a dangerous game to play if so

**archie** · 22-12-2022 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

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Nah, I think they just felt it was the right thing to do.
Of course, if Jack is stupid enough to go for this then nobody on the yes side will be disappointed.

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Depends what you mean by stupid. I'm sure there is a political dimension, but it is not only legitimate but essential to ensure that different pieces of legislation do not contradict each other.