Brexit - What Now.

[Bristolhibby]

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I can't help but think there's an opportunity for the LibDems.

Campaign on a rejoin the EU ticket and have moderate policies that will seem reasonable enough to the more moderate ends of the Labour and Conservative parties.

Leave them to fight each other on the pro Brexit, Union Jacks everywhere, Rwanda battleground.

Wouldn't be going against their principles and with FPTP you never know how it might actually end up.

Biggest problem is that they lack the type of charismatic leader they've had in the past.

That is literally their policy.

J

[Bristolhibby]

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But it's not an election. As I said in the response to Grunt,it's a reason why referenda are so convulsive - a binary choice is naturally divisive and it's difficult to see where the space is to offer compromise. If yes had won in 2014 by 52:48 do you seriously think the position on independence would be softened?

Thing is Brexit wasn’t binary. There were a whole host of ways we could have “left”.

Hard Leave - WTO terms.
Norway Model - leave the Single Markey but remain in the Customs Union.
Canada Deal - Leave the Single Market and Customs Union, but negotiate a
bilateral trade agreement.
Turkey Model - Leave the Single Market but negotiate a customs Union.

There were a number of ways we could have left, but our Government went for option 1.

Whereas given the tight outcome of the vote you’d have thought the natural way to leave would have been one of the other 3 options.

J

[archie]

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Thing is Brexit wasn’t binary. There were a whole host of ways we could have “left”.

Hard Leave - WTO terms.
Norway Model - leave the Single Markey but remain in the Customs Union.
Canada Deal - Leave the Single Market and Customs Union, but negotiate a
bilateral trade agreement.
Turkey Model - Leave the Single Market but negotiate a customs Union.

There were a number of ways we could have left, but our Government went for option 1.

Whereas given the tight outcome of the vote you’d have thought the natural way to leave would have been one of the other 3 options.

J

I see what you mean. I wonder if the opposition tactics might have been better organised to push for a softer Brexit.

[Bristolhibby]

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I see what you mean. I wonder if the opposition tactics might have been better organised to push for a softer Brexit.

They did, but the ERG Tories and Johnson and their chums in the press painted the narrative that any compromise was “stealing our BREXIT”.

When in fact there were many softer BREXITS that wouldn’t have wiped out 4% of our GDP. Could do with that in this current climate.

The well seems poisoned. Labour have to keep quiet regarding alignment as the Touries would use it as a damaging attack line - Starmer is trying to steal your BREXIT. I totally believe that in two years time when Starmers Labour come to power there will be a quiet realignment to the EU, with eventually feelers put out to some sort of customs union.

J

[hibsbollah]

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There was a very good piece by Zoe Williams today about how complaints about coarsening of debate can sometimes threaten the debate itself...is there room for polite discourse when real liberties are (literally) being taken?

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...my-free-speech

And to build on that earlier point, the Minister Chris Phillp has been quoted today as saying these refugees fleeing war and persecution, 'had a bit of a cheek' complaining about the conditions at the detention centre, because they have entered the UK illegally. What kind of human being is this? Where's the empathy? To me, this kind of talk does not deserve anything else but furious resistance, he's just one of the nasty 20% that spoil most societies, and if resisting him means a 'coarsening' of the debate I frankly couldnt give a flying one.

[grunt]

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And to build on that earlier point, the Minister Chris Phillp has been quoted today as saying these refugees fleeing war and persecution, 'had a bit of a cheek' complaining about the conditions at the detention centre, because they have entered the UK illegally.

Another Tory lie. Don't talk to me about coarsening debate when our elected representatives lie to us on a daily basis.

[Col2]

When the BOE governor refuses to mention the “B” word (as a known strongly supporting remainer” when faced with the longest recession looming and desperate growth predictions when we crawl out of recession…… you know the system is completed screwed.

[Bostonhibby]

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When the BOE governor refuses to mention the “B” word (as a known strongly supporting remainer” when faced with the longest recession looming and desperate growth predictions when we crawl out of recession…… you know the system is completed screwed.

Yep, was thinking that, he did make an almighty f up of his last role but we ain't in a great place when the apparently independent BOE governor is willing to toe this particular line.

Mark Carney, he definitely isn't. A fair chunk of what Carney warned us against pre Brexit is what we are living with today......

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[cabbageandribs1875]

so here's Nigel Farage signing alongside

the Dover Terrorist

[grunt]

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But I just don't see it as fascism - etremely right wing yes, but fascism - not for me.

Not fascist at all. Here's some of the proposals in Braverman's "Public Order Bill" ...

[grunt]

Not fascist in the slightest.

Home Office immigration enforcement officials are targeting places of worship to advise people with insecure status to return to their countries of origin.On three occasions, officials entered religious premises to take people direct to airports.

https://t.co/7aTtXo7IFV

[Stairway 2 7]

Larry Elliot again arguing that brexit didn't harm the uk 😳

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...P=share_btn_tw

Whether that opportunity is seized or squandered is yet to be seen but the dire predictions didn’t happen

[grunt]

Not fascist in the least:

The government has been accused of “gerrymandering” and “legalised voter suppression” by pushing ahead with mandatory voter ID for next year’s May local elections, amid renewed concerns that young people will be locked out of voting. At least six of the government-accepted IDs for voting are specifically targeted at older people, while almost none are aimed at younger people. New secondary legislation introduced by ministers to extend the Elections Act using Henry VIII powers – whereby Parliament is bypassed – include 310 references to the word “refusal” to grant a ballot paper.

@lloyd_rm told me: “I pushed very hard for ministers to accept other forms of ID,” Russell-Moyle said. But the decision was taken to exclude forms of ID “that are just as secure”. He added that “student ID cards or Railcards have been deemed not acceptable”

[Stairway 2 7]

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Not fascist in the least:

Wouldn't say fascist as I think most countries in Europe require ID. In they countries carrying ID is more common though. It's solving a problem that isn't there introducing it voter fraud is miniscule. You'd think more countries would go to electrical voting like Brazil, although that also requires you to prove identity.

[grunt]

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Wouldn't say fascist as I think most countries in Europe require ID. In they countries carrying ID is more common though. It's solving a problem that isn't there introducing it voter fraud is miniscule. You'd think more countries would go to electrical voting like Brazil, although that also requires you to prove identity.

I fear you are missing the point. It's not that there is a problem with voter fraud; there isn't. It's that this Tory Govt wants to disenfranchise those who might vote against them - e.g. the young voters - in the hope that this will increase the Tory majority in future elections. So they introduce the requirement for voter ID and then they determine that the "acceptable" forms of ID are typically those which only older voters have, and they put into law all the various reasons by which they can refuse a constituent's vote.

[James310]

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Not fascist in the least:

Are all the countries in Europe also fascist that require voter ID?

I think the UK is probably the only country in Europe that doesn't have some form of voter ID.

[grunt]

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Are all the countries in Europe also fascist that require voter ID?

I think the UK is probably the only country in Europe that doesn't have some form of voter ID.

It's that this Tory Govt wants to disenfranchise those who might vote against them - e.g. the young voters - in the hope that this will increase the Tory majority in future elections. So they introduce the requirement for voter ID and then they determine that the "acceptable" forms of ID are typically those which only older voters have, and they put into law all the various reasons by which they can refuse a constituent's vote.

[grunt]

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Are all the countries in Europe also fascist that require voter ID?

I think the UK is probably the only country in Europe that doesn't have some form of voter ID.

Do other European countries also have a requirement for citizens to have a national form of ID? if they do, then it's no big deal they should be asked to provide it when voting. In the UK we do not have a requirement for our citizens to carry ID. And we don't have a problem with voter fraud. So why introduce the need for ID when there's no problem?

[James310]

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It's that this Tory Govt wants to disenfranchise those who might vote against them - e.g. the young voters - in the hope that this will increase the Tory majority in future elections. So they introduce the requirement for voter ID and then they determine that the "acceptable" forms of ID are typically those which only older voters have, and they put into law all the various reasons by which they can refuse a constituent's vote.

So acceptable ID will include things like a bus pass, something young people in Scotland will have in increasing numbers due to the "free" travel scheme. The plan is you can also get a voter identification card from your local council for free and they will be required to provide this by law, so the facts don't really back up your claims. Even expired photo ID will be acceptable. In fact 98% of people will already have the required ID. See below:

What identification will be acceptable?

There will be a wide range of photographic identification which will be acceptable.

These include:

Various concessionary travel passes
PASS cards
Ministry of Defence identity cards
Photocard parking permits issued as part of the Blue Badge scheme
Driver’s licenses
Passports
Free Voter Cards, provided by local authorities

Expired photographic identification will also be accepted if the photograph is of a good enough likeness to allow polling station staff to confirm the identity of the holder.

Legislation will also make clear that local authorities must provide a Voter Card free of charge where an elector does not have one of the approved forms of photo identification

What if I don’t have any of those documents?

Everyone eligible to vote will continue to be able to do so. New research published by the Government shows that 98% of electors already own a photographic document that is on the list of acceptable types of identification under this policy.

Local authorities will be required, by law, to provide a Voter Card free of charge where an elector does not have one of the approved forms of photo identification. A similar provision will be established for anonymous electors who will be able to apply for a free anonymous elector Voter Card should they wish to vote in person.

So, if they really wanted to do what you are suggesting they would not be doing the above would they.

[Mon Dieu4]

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Wouldn't say fascist as I think most countries in Europe require ID. In they countries carrying ID is more common though. It's solving a problem that isn't there introducing it voter fraud is miniscule. You'd think more countries would go to electrical voting like Brazil, although that also requires you to prove identity.

The fact there were 595 instances of voter fraud in the year 2019 which includes and General, local, European and mayoral elections shows there is absolutely no need for it, there must be another reason behind why they are doing it imo

[grunt]

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So, if they really wanted to do what you are suggesting they would not be doing the above would they.

You either didn't read, or didn't understand my reply.

[Moulin Yarns]

Do people think that there isn't any voter id already?

Next time you receive an electoral vote check it, you will find a number which corresponds with the electoral roll.

It might not be the same as having to show photo id but it links your address to the voting paper.

[James310]

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You either didn't read, or didn't understand my reply.

I did, you said the Tory's are doing it to increase their majority and will make it difficult for people to get the required ID.

I replied with the facts that things like a bus pass will be acceptable and it will become law that local councils will have to supply voter ID cards free of charge, and not forgetting 98% of people already have the required ID.

All things you think they would NOT be doing if it was all about stopping non Tory voters voting.

[grunt]

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I did, you said the Tory's are doing it to increase their majority and will make it difficult for people to get the required ID. I replied with the facts that things like a bus pass will be acceptable and it will become law that local councils will have to supply voter ID cards free of charge, and not forgetting 98% of people already have the required ID.

All things you think they would NOT be doing if it was all about stopping non Tory voters voting.

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Various concessionary travel passes
PASS cards
Ministry of Defence identity cards
Photocard parking permits issued as part of the Blue Badge scheme
Driver’s licenses
Passports
Free Voter Cards, provided by local authorities

98%? And you believe that?

Look at the list of acceptable forms of ID - how many of them will be available to voters aged 18-24?

The very fact that someone has to go to the trouble of contacting the Council to obtain a voter card will ITSELF prove to be a barrier to voting to youngsters who already vote less than older folk because of their disenchantment with politicians and politics. Also - have you tried to contact the Council recently???

[James310]

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98%? And you believe that?

Look at the list of acceptable forms of ID - how many of them will be available to voters aged 18-24?

The very fact that someone has to go to the trouble of contacting the Council to obtain a voter card will ITSELF prove to be a barrier to voting to youngsters who already vote less than older folk because of their disenchantment with politicians and politics. Also - have you tried to contact the Council recently???

Once again, I simply cannot believe that you cannot see what is happening here. Your continued arguments in support of the Govt in dealing with a problem that does not exist in the face of what I consider to be overwhelming evidence is either trolling or blind and unconditional support of the Tory Govt.

Did you read it, 98% ALREADY have the required ID. And yes I do believe it, unlike you I am not into conspiracy theories that think everything I don't agree with is fake or made up.

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...-great-britain

There is the link to the research, why do you think it's made up or fabricated? Which parts exactly aren't true?

If you were concerned about younger people then again the facts are not your friend.

"Younger people were more likely than the general population to hold a form of photo ID. Ninety-nine
per cent of those aged 18-29 held a form of photo ID, slightly higher than either those aged 30-69
(98%) or 70+ (98%). Additionally, those aged 85+ were less likely to hold photo ID that was
recognisable. Nine in ten (91%) did so, compared to well over nine in ten (95-98%) of younger age
groups."

Seems to work just fine in all other European countries. Maybe it's you that needs to stop your unconditional belief that everything and everyone is somehow out to get you or some other group.

[grunt]

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Seems to work just fine in all other European countries. Maybe it's you that needs to stop your unconditional belief that everything and everyone is somehow out to get you or some other group.

You. Are. Missing. The. Point.

We don't need it.
It will deter people from voting.
It will disproportionately favour the Tories.

[James310]

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You. Are. Missing. The. Point.

We don't need it.
It will deter people from voting.
It will disproportionately favour the Tories.

So is it made up research or not? If you challenge the authenticity of something then at least come back with a reason why?

People need ID to pick up a parcel, having ID to vote when so many already have it isn't that big a deal. I thought something that aligns us with the rest of Europe would be welcomed not rejected.

[Stairway 2 7]

Does it work in Northern Ireland where you need it?

[Mon Dieu4]

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So is it made up research or not? If you challenge the authenticity of something then at least come back with a reason why?

People need ID to pick up a parcel, having ID to vote when so many already have it isn't that big a deal. I thought something that aligns us with the rest of Europe would be welcomed not rejected.

Looking at the electoral commission website there have been 1,566 possible electoral fraud cases out of how many 10s of millions that voted since 2017, 9 people have been convicted, 10 received a caution and 3 are still under investigation, that's spanning 5 years and there is no evidence in the figures that it's in any way on the increase

There is zero reason at all for this to be implemented

[James310]

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Looking at the electoral commission website there have been 1,566 possible electoral fraud cases out of how many 10s of millions that voted since 2017, 9 people have been convicted, 10 received a caution and 3 are still under investigation, that's spanning 5 years and there is no evidence in the figures that it's in any way on the increase

There is zero reason at all for this to be implemented

I guess that's the ones we know about. I don't think it's a widespread problem either, just don't agree with the narrative it's some Tory plot to stop people voting. The facts prove this.

I wonder if people in France think it's some plot to stop people voting as well or they just get on with it and accept it's fairly normal around the world.