The Trans Rights Debate

[500miles]

You probably don't need to divide golfers by sex, but due to the lack of quality female players, there would be a representation issue which would reduce girls being attracted to the sport.

[LewysGot2]

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You probably don't need to divide golfers by sex, but due to the lack of quality female players, there would be a representation issue which would reduce girls being attracted to the sport.

Why don’t you need to?

[He's here!]

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You probably don't need to divide golfers by sex, but due to the lack of quality female players, there would be a representation issue which would reduce girls being attracted to the sport.

What lack of quality female players? The quality of the women's game is higher than ever.

I can only assume you're not a golfer/ golfers tho if you think there's no need for separate men's and women's games.

[500miles]

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What lack of quality female players? The quality of the women's game is higher than ever.

I can only assume you're not a golfer/ golfers tho if you think there's no need for separate men's and women's games.

Are they hitting the same numbers on the same courses as men? If so, there's no reason for segregation. If not, the reason for segregation is quality.

And no, I'm not a golfer, so iam thoroughly enjoying the opportunity to diminish any aspect of it!

[Stairway 2 7]

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Are they hitting the same numbers on the same courses as men? If so, there's no reason for segregation. If not, the reason for segregation is quality.

No they can't hit as far from the tee. That's why in tournaments women hit from from front tee men from the back. It's misogyny to say they just aren't skillful enough. Some are unbelievably skillful but will never be able to drive like men

[LewysGot2]

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Are they hitting the same numbers on the same courses as men? If so, there's no reason for segregation. If not, the reason for segregation is quality.

And no, I'm not a golfer, so iam thoroughly enjoying the opportunity to diminish any aspect of it!

Quality?

It's not that. But then you've conceded you've got an agenda...

[He's here!]

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Are they hitting the same numbers on the same courses as men? If so, there's no reason for segregation. If not, the reason for segregation is quality.

And no, I'm not a golfer, so iam thoroughly enjoying the opportunity to diminish any aspect of it!

No is the answer to your question. As has already been explained the women play shorter courses - or the same courses but from women's tees.

Bemused why you would take pleasure in diminishing a sport you know nothing about. I wouldn't call myself a regular golfer but I've played enough to appreciate the phenomenal skill required to become a top player, male or female.

[superfurryhibby]

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Along with ageism and sexism…after all she’s “only Andy’s old mum” what right has she to comment on this…

The comments on Twatter about Judy Murray's views are indicative of the kind of censorship happy, lunatic fringe gone mainstream, extremism with fascist undertones I associate with the more sinister proponents of gender self identification.

If you don't share their views, then you must be transphobic. Which is clearly stereotyping, simplistic and often deeply misogynistic.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://news-sky-com.cdn.ampproject....ourse-12479539


https://www.golfmonthly.com/features...r-neutral-tees




Sounds like a good idea to encourage new golfers.

[Stairway 2 7]

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https://news-sky-com.cdn.ampproject....ourse-12479539


https://www.golfmonthly.com/features...r-neutral-tees




Sounds like a good idea to encourage new golfers.

To the original point if your saying someone like the great Annika Sorenstam never made the cut in the mens game when she tried, is down to lack of skill and not also physical disadvantaged. Then I think your incredibly misogynistic and downplaying the genius of some of the great female golfers

Someone like bryson dechambeau is showing that the game is going away from skill somewhat and you can have an advantage just by being able to blooter it further than the rest

[CropleyWasGod]

I mentioned on the Gigs thread that I went to see Ezra Furman the other night. The gig is still ringing in my ears, for a few reasons.

I love her music, and her lyrics. That, of course, is subjective, and not everyone will like her. However, what really struck me was her attitude and stage presence. She reminded me of an early David Bowie, when his sexuality was the talk of the classroom. Ezra had a similar feel.... no overkill, just "I'm here. I am being me. Like me or don't like me."

In that light, there were many trans people in the room, most of whom were young. Just as Bowie was an inspiration to young gay men in the early 70's, so Ezra is to young trans men and women now.

Also, there was a feeling of rebellion. She evoked the spirit of Patti Smith, musically and emotionally; indeed, she finished with Because The Night.

Whilst there is belligerence at both polarised extremes of the Trans debate, which will continue no doubt, what the other night reassured me of was that the younger generation have the power and the inclination to increase the tolerance and acceptance of the trans community, just as mine did with LGB rights.

For all those reasons, I left that gig with the broadest smile on my face.

[147lothian]

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You probably don't need to divide golfers by sex, but due to the lack of quality female players, there would be a representation issue which would reduce girls being attracted to the sport.

Do you mean that as female's can't hit the ball as far they are just not up to the male standard?

[500miles]

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Do you mean that as female's can't hit the ball as far they are just not up to the male standard?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=URz-RYE0aig

I didn't mean either really, I meant the only reason there would be to split the game is if there is an innate difference in strength which would impact the game, or the pool of female players is comparatively small which tends to lead a lack of quality, which means women would need thier own competitions to ensure they are publicly represented and not swalled up by the much greater number of elite male players. It has been since pointed out that women play smaller courses due to shorter drives which is fair enough, and indicates to me that sex segregation is important.

And also, as someone in the building industry, golf course patter has ruined my life and I shall seek to diminish it at every turn!

[superfurryhibby]

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I mentioned on the Gigs thread that I went to see Ezra Furman the other night. The gig is still ringing in my ears, for a few reasons.

I love her music, and her lyrics. That, of course, is subjective, and not everyone will like her. However, what really struck me was her attitude and stage presence. She reminded me of an early David Bowie, when his sexuality was the talk of the classroom. Ezra had a similar feel.... no overkill, just "I'm here. I am being me. Like me or don't like me."

In that light, there were many trans people in the room, most of whom were young. Just as Bowie was an inspiration to young gay men in the early 70's, so Ezra is to young trans men and women now.

Also, there was a feeling of rebellion. She evoked the spirit of Patti Smith, musically and emotionally; indeed, she finished with Because The Night.

Whilst there is belligerence at both polarised extremes of the Trans debate, which will continue no doubt, what the other night reassured me of was that the younger generation have the power and the inclination to increase the tolerance and acceptance of the trans community, just as mine did with LGB rights.

For all those reasons, I left that gig with the broadest smile on my face.

That's an interesting post. Music has power to connect people, Anonhi, the artist behind Anthony and the Johnsons, has been directly paving the way for Ezra these past 20 years or more.

In terms of tolerance and acceptance, this thread seems to show that there is a clear recognition of trans rights. However, the tolerance ceases when the extremist fringes of that movement want to trample over the rights of others, namely women. The sinister agenda of misogyny and the anti democratic rhetoric of a lunatic fringe is only serving to undermine the wider cause. What I find heartening is that people on a football forum are well enough informed to see through the nonsense and make clear and reasonable distinctions.

[147lothian]

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That's an interesting post. Music has power to connect people, Anonhi, the artist behind Anthony and the Johnsons, has been directly paving the way for Ezra these past 20 years or more.

In terms of tolerance and acceptance, this thread seems to show that there is a clear recognition of trans rights. However, the tolerance ceases when the extremist fringes of that movement want to trample over the rights of others, namely women. The sinister agenda of misogyny and the anti democratic rhetoric of a lunatic fringe is only serving to undermine the wider cause. What I find heartening is that people on a football forum are well enough informed to see through the nonsense and make clear and reasonable distinctions.

Well said, I totally agree, this video shows that many trans people just want to get on with their life's and are not happy about the extremists who say you have to be ok with ruining women's sport and steroids in children or your a transphobe, it's counterproductive to actual trans people.

[Hibernia&Alba]

"I don't find them attractive, they're just confusing."

Alan Partridge.

[He's here!]

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I didn't mean either really, I meant the only reason there would be to split the game is if there is an innate difference in strength which would impact the game, or the pool of female players is comparatively small which tends to lead a lack of quality, which means women would need thier own competitions to ensure they are publicly represented and not swalled up by the much greater number of elite male players. It has been since pointed out that women play smaller courses due to shorter drives which is fair enough, and indicates to me that sex segregation is important.

And also, as someone in the building industry, golf course patter has ruined my life and I shall seek to diminish it at every turn!

I had no idea the building industry was such a hotbed of golf chat. Hard hats and hi-viz vests cast aside on Friday afternoons in a race for the first tee..

[He's here!]

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I mentioned on the Gigs thread that I went to see Ezra Furman the other night. The gig is still ringing in my ears, for a few reasons.

I love her music, and her lyrics. That, of course, is subjective, and not everyone will like her. However, what really struck me was her attitude and stage presence. She reminded me of an early David Bowie, when his sexuality was the talk of the classroom. Ezra had a similar feel.... no overkill, just "I'm here. I am being me. Like me or don't like me."

In that light, there were many trans people in the room, most of whom were young. Just as Bowie was an inspiration to young gay men in the early 70's, so Ezra is to young trans men and women now.

Also, there was a feeling of rebellion. She evoked the spirit of Patti Smith, musically and emotionally; indeed, she finished with Because The Night.

Whilst there is belligerence at both polarised extremes of the Trans debate, which will continue no doubt, what the other night reassured me of was that the younger generation have the power and the inclination to increase the tolerance and acceptance of the trans community, just as mine did with LGB rights.

For all those reasons, I left that gig with the broadest smile on my face.

Nice post and one that rings true re a lot of the younger generation. I'd say, tho, that there's only one polarised extreme in this debate - unless the likes of JKR and Judy Murray are considered extremists for pointing out biology as a factor.

[archie]

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I had no idea the building industry was such a hotbed of golf chat. Hard hats and hi-viz vests cast aside on Friday afternoons in race for the first tee..

You're not kidding. I live near a golf course. On an unexpected sunny day the car park is rammed with workies vans. All called away on an emergency no doubt!

[147lothian]

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Nice post and one that rings true re a lot of the younger generation. I'd say, tho, that there's only one polarised extreme in this debate - unless the likes of JKR and Judy Murray are considered extremists for pointing out biology as a factor.

There is only one polarized extreme in this video and that is clearly the misogynistic men who are beating up women, unless anyone thinks that the women are extremists for campaigning for female spaces to be protected spaces for females only, so that men can't enter?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5DFv8OaYXQI

[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...itics-63162533

Nicola Sturgeon: Destroyer of women's rights.

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...itics-63162533

Nicola Sturgeon: Destroyer of women's rights.

Rowling is pipin hoat, pay her no attention


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[superfurryhibby]

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...itics-63162533

Nicola Sturgeon: Destroyer of women's rights.

"The proposed new law would make it easier for people to be legally recognised as their preferred gender and broaden the official definition of what it means to be trans.

Anyone aged 16 or over who has lived in their "acquired gender" for at least three months would be eligible to apply.

A medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria would no longer be required, removing the need for doctors' reports.

It remains a hotly contested issue, however, with critics saying "self identification" would undermine the safety of women-only spaces. JK Rowling has previously argued the new law would harm the most vulnerable women.

Ms Rowling tweeted: "I stand in solidarity with @ForWomenScot and all women protesting and speaking outside the Scottish Parliament. #NoToSelfID."

Well said JK Rowling. The forelock tugging, all bowing and scrapping, Sturgeon is making a big error with this pish.

[Mr Grieves]

I see transgender hate crimes increased by 56% with social media discussion identified as a factor in the rise. But, aye, well done JK, spot on tweets to your 14 million followers

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc...k-63157965.amp

[Stairway 2 7]

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I see transgender hate crimes increased by 56% with social media discussion identified as a factor in the rise. But, aye, well done JK, spot on tweets to your 14 million followers

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc...k-63157965.amp

She's not being anti trans she's being pro women. Women have it tough enough without women's only spaces going, women's sport being compromised and the word woman being erased in many cases. It's a man's world

[Ozyhibby]

Do they already have these laws in Ireland? I’m sure I read that somewhere? If so, has there been a decrease in woman’s safety there?


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[Stairway 2 7]

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Do they already have these laws in Ireland? I’m sure I read that somewhere? If so, has there been a decrease in woman’s safety there?


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There's the same debates and demonstrations as here, Irish rugby just banned people born as males from playing with women.

The way I see it as we need to listen to women it's more misogyny to not. In every poll women don't want people born male to be in women's only spaces. Why should men say tough. If the debate was taken away from women only spaces and sport, I think 90% would be on the same page

[CropleyWasGod]

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Do they already have these laws in Ireland? I’m sure I read that somewhere? If so, has there been a decrease in woman’s safety there?


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They do, as well as 30-odd other countries.

The impact on related violence in those countries doesn't seem to be a major issue on either side of the debate here, although I'm happy to be corrected if I've missed it. As with a lot of similar issues, evidence gets lost in the ideology.

[Mr Grieves]

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She's not being anti trans she's being pro women. Women have it tough enough without women's only spaces going, women's sport being compromised and the word woman being erased in many cases. It's a man's world

So by that logic Sturgeon, a woman btw, is being anti-women?

Shona Robison, another woman btw, is anti-women?

And don't get me started on the irony of a pro-women woman personally attacking another woman.

[Stairway 2 7]

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So by that logic Sturgeon, a woman btw, is being anti-women?

Shona Robison, another woman btw, is anti-women?

And don't get me started on the irony of a pro-women woman personally attacking another woman.

It isn't listening to the will of the majority of women. Women like Joanne cherry are bombed from the front if they disagree, so why would they not tow the line.