Scottish Independence

[Smartie]

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Well yes of course they can, I just think it weakens the good argument he makes in the previous 12 paragraphs about the Tories.
"I've had a lightbulb moment and I now think that independence is ok", followed by, "of course the SNP and the Greens are still awful".
It's almost as though he remembered right at the end that he doesn't like the SNP either, and felt he had to include that in the article.

Just my reading of it.

I don't think it's an unreasonable stance.

You can support independence, accept that the SNP/ greens are a vehicle to get there yet be constructively critical of aspects of their performance in government.

I find it more credible a position to hold than those who defend every single thing that the SNP do to the tiniest little detail.

[Ozyhibby]

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I don't think it's an unreasonable stance.

You can support independence, accept that the SNP/ greens are a vehicle to get there yet be constructively critical of aspects of their performance in government.

I find it more credible a position to hold than those who defend every single thing that the SNP do to the tiniest little detail.

I’m in the middle of that. I think the SNP are a govt who never take risks and I understand why. Would be nice if they did a lot more but I know that their central aim of independence requires them at all times to project stability. I also think they have got lucky in that there isn’t another govt in the UK performing better so there are no alternatives out there.
The SNP are far from perfect but let’s face it, when it comes to running the SG, there are no credible alternatives.
I think the situation in Westminster will prove unsustainable to Scots in ever larger numbers going forward.


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[JeMeSouviens]

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I don't think it's an unreasonable stance.

You can support independence, accept that the SNP/ greens are a vehicle to get there yet be constructively critical of aspects of their performance in government.

I find it more credible a position to hold than those who defend every single thing that the SNP do to the tiniest little detail.

Agreed.

Although I think ...

"The only way to convince undecideds is to govern Scotland well – something the SNP and Greens have failed at spectacularly."

is way over the top, personally.

[Just Alf]

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I don't think it's an unreasonable stance.

You can support independence, accept that the SNP/ greens are a vehicle to get there yet be constructively critical of aspects of their performance in government.

I find it more credible a position to hold than those who defend every single thing that the SNP do to the tiniest little detail.

That's how I see it as well, I'm still fairly sure they'll (snp) make up the 1st post indy government but I also strongly suspect a lot of voters, and SNP members, even politicians will quite quickly gravitate towards parties that are a more natural "fit" for their political ideology.

Big question remains if that'll be a revitalised Scottish Labour or Conservative party or something new.

[Moulin Yarns]

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Well yes of course they can, I just think it weakens the good argument he makes in the previous 12 paragraphs about the Tories.
"I've had a lightbulb moment and I now think that independence is ok", followed by, "of course the SNP and the Greens are still awful".
It's almost as though he remembered right at the end that he doesn't like the SNP either, and felt he had to include that in the article.

Just my reading of it.

To be honest, I agree, independence is the best option, but are the SNP the best vehicle for it.

[He's here!]

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Previously lukewarm Yes supporter Neil Mackay in the Herald:

I guess he's got a word count to meet, but that's a long-winded way of saying 'things have got so bad I guess I might as well vote SNP'.

[Ozyhibby]

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I guess he's got a word count to meet, but that's a long-winded way of saying 'things have got so bad I guess I might as well vote SNP'.

Independence. It’s independence he now supports, not the SNP.


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[He's here!]

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Agreed.

Although I think ...

"The only way to convince undecideds is to govern Scotland well – something the SNP and Greens have failed at spectacularly."

is way over the top, personally.

Bit early perhaps to be putting the boot into the Greens, although I guess handing them a seat at the top table with their toxic gender views is a good example of unsound governance by the SNP.

One aspect of the SNP's governance where I would concede they've been ticking the right boxes is in their approach to child poverty. Otherwise they represent, for me, the worst aspects of 'Scottishness'. Dour, crabbit, chippy and endlessly nursing a grievance. Anything negative can be blamed on Westminster while anything positive can be framed along the lines of 'look how much better we could be doing if freed from Westminster shackles'. The reason the SNP get so agitated by the level of flak which has come their way over the ferries scandal is because they have nowhere to turn over a spectacular blunder which was entirely of their own making. Ditto the catalogue of ****-ups which lead to the Salmond High Court fiasco, while the mind-boggling drugs deaths stats on Sturgeon's watch can't be explained away by a lack of devolved powers.

Now we appear to have reached a stage where all pretence at sound governance is to be jettisoned in favour of fighting a general election as a 'de facto' referendum - as though such a thing actually exists.

Politics in the UK has been at a desperately low ebb for a number of years now, but is voting for the least worst option really the best we can do?

On a more general note, I do sometimes wonder what rational person would actually want to become a politician these days. Perhaps the scarcity of such MPs/MSPs reflects that and accounts for the current rather depressing landscape.

[grunt]

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The reason the SNP get so agitated by the level of flak which has come their way over the ferries scandal is because they have nowhere to turn over a spectacular blunder which was entirely of their own making.

"Spectacular blunder"? Pales somewhat into insignificance when you compare it to buying £12bn of PPE and then chucking £10bn of it away? I think you've been reading too much of the Scottish red top rubbishy papers.

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Politics in the UK has been at a desperately low ebb for a number of years now, but is voting for the least worst option really the best we can do?

I don't know. Maybe it IS the best we can do. (Not that I think the SNP is the least worst - I think their successes make them a clear choice in Scotland). What do you think?

[Ozyhibby]

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Bit early perhaps to be putting the boot into the Greens, although I guess handing them a seat at the top table with their toxic gender views is a good example of unsound governance by the SNP.

One aspect of the SNP's governance where I would concede they've been ticking the right boxes is in their approach to child poverty. Otherwise they represent, for me, the worst aspects of 'Scottishness'. Dour, crabbit, chippy and endlessly nursing a grievance. Anything negative can be blamed on Westminster while anything positive can be framed along the lines of 'look how much better we could be doing if freed from Westminster shackles'. The reason the SNP get so agitated by the level of flak which has come their way over the ferries scandal is because they have nowhere to turn over a spectacular blunder which was entirely of their own making. Ditto the catalogue of ****-ups which lead to the Salmond High Court fiasco, while the mind-boggling drugs deaths stats on Sturgeon's watch can't be explained away by a lack of devolved powers.

Now we appear to have reached a stage where all pretence at sound governance is to be jettisoned in favour of fighting a general election as a 'de facto' referendum - as though such a thing actually exists.

Politics in the UK has been at a desperately low ebb for a number of years now, but is voting for the least worst option really the best we can do?

On a more general note, I do sometimes wonder what rational person would actually want to become a politician these days. Perhaps the scarcity of such MPs/MSPs reflects that and accounts for the current rather depressing landscape.

Is that it? A botched procurement process and a mistake by the procurator fiscal? No wonder they keep winning.


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[ronaldo7]

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Bit early perhaps to be putting the boot into the Greens, although I guess handing them a seat at the top table with their toxic gender views is a good example of unsound governance by the SNP.

One aspect of the SNP's governance where I would concede they've been ticking the right boxes is in their approach to child poverty. Otherwise they represent, for me, the worst aspects of 'Scottishness'. Dour, crabbit, chippy and endlessly nursing a grievance. Anything negative can be blamed on Westminster while anything positive can be framed along the lines of 'look how much better we could be doing if freed from Westminster shackles'. The reason the SNP get so agitated by the level of flak which has come their way over the ferries scandal is because they have nowhere to turn over a spectacular blunder which was entirely of their own making. Ditto the catalogue of ****-ups which lead to the Salmond High Court fiasco, while the mind-boggling drugs deaths stats on Sturgeon's watch can't be explained away by a lack of devolved powers.

Now we appear to have reached a stage where all pretence at sound governance is to be jettisoned in favour of fighting a general election as a 'de facto' referendum - as though such a thing actually exists.

Politics in the UK has been at a desperately low ebb for a number of years now, but is voting for the least worst option really the best we can do?

On a more general note, I do sometimes wonder what rational person would actually want to become a politician these days. Perhaps the scarcity of such MPs/MSPs reflects that and accounts for the current rather depressing landscape.

The worst aspects of "scottishness" are of those who continue talking Scotland down. Some of them don't even know that Birmingham is in a different country. 😲

I'll continue to fight to get us out of a union, where governments of both persuasions can't get their act together, and would rather leave people destitute, and fighting to stay alive. This winter is going to be a bleak one.

Their continued lackadaisical approach to Russian money flooding into especially the Tories, and Labour's failure to stand with the workers, and refusing to nationalise industries. The pledges purged from the labour leaders lips doesn't fill me with confidence that we can't do better than both of them.

That's all before we start with the waste of money filling Tories bank accounts during the pandemic.

Sometimes we need to lift our eyes to see what we're actually achieving.

[Kato]

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the worst aspects of 'Scottishness'. Dour, crabbit, chippy and endlessly nursing a grievance.

Blimey.


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[Ozyhibby]

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Blimey.


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It’s how some people see us I guess? A weird world view if you happen to be Scottish right enough.


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[Kato]

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It’s how some people see us I guess? A weird world view if you happen to be Scottish right enough.


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It's a kailyard stereotype. A Music Hall trope that gathered pace and stuck with English hacks.

I personally don't recognise those things as Scottish at all.

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[degenerated]

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It's a kailyard stereotype. A Music Hall trope that gathered pace and stuck with English hacks.

I personally don't recognise those things as Scottish at all.

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I think it's a symptom of Jockholm Syndrome

[lapsedhibee]

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the worst aspects of 'Scottishness'. Dour, crabbit, chippy and endlessly nursing a grievance.

Mibbe time to start hanging out with some new pals?

[Kato]

Are the SNP policies, outwith them wanting Scotland to be independent, grievence driven?

They describe themselves as having a progressive outlook so, is there much grievence even in the rhetoric of their actual policies?

Which party in the UK does have grievence driven policies? I think the answer might be obvious.

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[Glory Lurker]

HH's description is applicable to me, but thankfully I'm not representative of our population as a whole :-)

[greenlex]

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I guess he's got a word count to meet, but that's a long-winded way of saying 'things have got so bad I guess I might as well vote SNP'.

You should actually read it.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/bbcphilipsim/sta...FuzD4rKYETIAdQ

UK govt legal arguments against self determination are up.


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[Col2]

I have not voted previously for independence and felt the timing of a new vote was wrong (post COVID) but I would now rather take my chances on our and future generations as an independent country with huge natural resources, innovation etc than continue with being part of Englands fascist corrupt, insular and self distructive agenda and direction.

I am ashamed to be part of the UK. It is completely broken and will never recover.

[Ozyhibby]

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I have not voted previously for independence and felt the timing of a new vote was wrong (post COVID) but I would now rather take my chances on our and future generations as an independent country with huge natural resources, innovation etc than continue with being part of Englands fascist corrupt, insular and self distructive agenda and direction.

I am ashamed to be part of the UK. It is completely broken and will never recover.

Welcome aboard.


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[He's here!]

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I have not voted previously for independence and felt the timing of a new vote was wrong (post COVID) but I would now rather take my chances on our and future generations as an independent country with huge natural resources, innovation etc than continue with being part of Englands fascist corrupt, insular and self distructive agenda and direction.

I am ashamed to be part of the UK. It is completely broken and will never recover.

??

[He's here!]

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Is that it? A botched procurement process and a mistake by the procurator fiscal? No wonder they keep winning.


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Bit bemused that you would see them as laughing matters bearing in mind it's you and I who are footing the bills.

[He's here!]

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You should actually read it.

I did and that was my summary of it.

[Ozyhibby]

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Bit bemused that you would see them as laughing matters bearing in mind it's you and I who are footing the bills.

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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/xanderescribe/st...Rqu_gKMDV0IqGg
Thread on NS appearance at festival today.


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[He's here!]

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Mibbe time to start hanging out with some new pals?

I did make clear I saw those as the worst traits, not a catch-all description of Scots.

I've outlined more than once that my anti-independence stance does not have politics at its heart. To put that into some sort of context, this summer we've had a family holiday in Yorkshire (possibly my favourite part of the UK), spent a few days in London, attended the Commonwealth Games in Birmingham and the Open golf at St Andrews. Personally I love London. It's an endlessly exciting city, where many a Scot has made their mark, and I enjoy the fact it's becoming ever quicker to get there from Scotland. The Commonwealth Games were a joy to attend, sport for sport's sake with none of the tribalism which accompanies (men's) football. What was especially noticeable was the loud support from fans of all the home nations for UK competitors. Had I not been fortunate enough to come by complimentary tickets I'd have given the vastly overpriced Open a miss, but it was nevertheless a great spectacle, with the world's sporting eyes on golf's most prestigious venue. A brilliant month, taking in just a fraction of what the UK has to offer from a geographical, cultural and sporting aspect. There's a pride to be had there. Why would I not want to feel part of that?

From a political point of view, I'd be surprised if there's a devolved government in the world with more powers than Scotland's, which is why I find the SNP's insular approach, where nothing less than independence is acceptable, so utterly negative and wearisome. Its complete rejection of of both English and Scottish unionists can, at an extreme, stoke up the rhetoric of hatred and has, for a number of years now, split Scotland in two. There are surely better, more widely acceptable ways forward than breaking up the UK (a greater focus on federalism - perhaps even a confederal system - would be my favoured option), but they would require a level of compromise that it's impossible to imagine the one-track SNP acceding to.

[lapsedhibee]

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I did make clear I saw those as the worst traits, not a catch-all description of Scots.

I've outlined more than once that my anti-independence stance does not have politics at its heart. To put that into some sort of context, this summer we've had a family holiday in Yorkshire (possibly my favourite part of the UK), spent a few days in London, attended the Commonwealth Games in Birmingham and the Open golf at St Andrews. Personally I love London. It's an endlessly exciting city, where many a Scot has made their mark, and I enjoy the fact it's becoming ever quicker to get there from Scotland. The Commonwealth Games were a joy to attend, sport for sport's sake with none of the tribalism which accompanies (men's) football. What was especially noticeable was the loud support from fans of all the home nations for UK competitors. Had I not been fortunate enough to come by complimentary tickets I'd have given the vastly overpriced Open a miss, but it was nevertheless a great spectacle, with the world's sporting eyes on golf's most prestigious venue. A brilliant month, taking in just a fraction of what the UK has to offer from a geographical, cultural and sporting aspect. There's a pride to be had there. Why would I not want to feel part of that?

From a political point of view, I'd be surprised if there's a devolved government in the world with more powers than Scotland's, which is why I find the SNP's insular approach, where nothing less than independence is acceptable, so utterly negative and wearisome. Its complete rejection of of both English and Scottish unionists can, at an extreme, stoke up the rhetoric of hatred and has, for a number of years now, split Scotland in two. There are surely better, more widely acceptable ways forward than breaking up the UK (a greater focus on federalism - perhaps even a confederal system - would be my favoured option), but they would require a level of compromise that it's impossible to imagine the one-track SNP acceding to.

SNP stoking up hatred. Seriously.

[Mantis Toboggan]

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I did make clear I saw those as the worst traits, not a catch-all description of Scots.

I've outlined more than once that my anti-independence stance does not have politics at its heart. To put that into some sort of context, this summer we've had a family holiday in Yorkshire (possibly my favourite part of the UK), spent a few days in London, attended the Commonwealth Games in Birmingham and the Open golf at St Andrews. Personally I love London. It's an endlessly exciting city, where many a Scot has made their mark, and I enjoy the fact it's becoming ever quicker to get there from Scotland. The Commonwealth Games were a joy to attend, sport for sport's sake with none of the tribalism which accompanies (men's) football. What was especially noticeable was the loud support from fans of all the home nations for UK competitors. Had I not been fortunate enough to come by complimentary tickets I'd have given the vastly overpriced Open a miss, but it was nevertheless a great spectacle, with the world's sporting eyes on golf's most prestigious venue. A brilliant month, taking in just a fraction of what the UK has to offer from a geographical, cultural and sporting aspect. There's a pride to be had there. Why would I not want to feel part of that?

From a political point of view, I'd be surprised if there's a devolved government in the world with more powers than Scotland's, which is why I find the SNP's insular approach, where nothing less than independence is acceptable, so utterly negative and wearisome. Its complete rejection of of both English and Scottish unionists can, at an extreme, stoke up the rhetoric of hatred and has, for a number of years now, split Scotland in two. There are surely better, more widely acceptable ways forward than breaking up the UK (a greater focus on federalism - perhaps even a confederal system - would be my favoured option), but they would require a level of compromise that it's impossible to imagine the one-track SNP acceding to.

Do you see much compromise coming from Westminster at the moment ?