SNP are lying b******s as well !

[grunt]

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Do you then agree that when the UK Prime minister said that if Scotland elected a majority of independence supporting MPs then independence negotiations can start at that point? (Margaret Thatcher)

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Did she really say that, have seen it used a number of time but have never seen the source. She may well have but do you know where and when she said it and the original quote?

This might be the quote. Not the same as Just Alf said, but surely something no one could disagree with.

[Steven79]

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Explain why it’s inaccurate…The SNP crossed the chamber and sided with the Tories and speeded up the ushering of Thatcher…hence the name given

Did the SNP vote the Tories into power or was that the South of England?

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[Keith_M]

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To put this into context the EU issue wasn't a major factor in how people voted in 2014, it was a fairly minor consideration. Way behind things like the NHS, the economy, jobs and even defence and security.

It's made out to be a big thing now of course, but it wasn't for people at the time of actually voting. Sure for some it was a big thing, but across the general public it wasn't.

It was one of many issues used in the carrot and stick approach of Project Fear, each of which are likely to have influenced a significant number of people.

No one, even your good self, can say exactly how many that influenced, so the only way to really find out is to have a second referendum.

[James310]

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It was one of many issues used in the carrot and stick approach of Project Fear, each of which are likely to have influenced a significant number of people.

No one, even your good self, can say exactly how many that influenced, so the only way to really find out is to have a second referendum.

Well we do have some insight as to why people voted and what influenced them, the EU was not a major factor in how people voted.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-ashcroft-poll

[James310]

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This might be the quote. Not the same as Just Alf said, but surely something no one could disagree with.

That's quite a bit different to what is being suggested. In states we should have a choice and we did have that choice. Yes, arguements are ongoing about having another vote but it's not exactly Thatcher stating and saying what is being claimed.

Thanks for digging it out though, as I had always wondered where it had come from.

[McSwanky]

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Well we do have some insight as to why people voted and what influenced them, the EU was not a major factor in how people voted.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-ashcroft-poll

Do you not think that that was because Brexit wasn't a thing back then? If people had known that the only way to stay in EU wasn't in fact by staying in the UK, in fact it was the opposite, then it may well have become a bigger issue.

[James310]

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Do you not think that that was because Brexit wasn't a thing back then? If people had known that the only way to stay in EU wasn't in fact by staying in the UK, in fact it was the opposite, then it may well have become a bigger issue.

I think we knew a referendum was on the cards but yes I agree if people had a crystal ball and knew the UK was going to leave the EU it would have changed some votes at the time and been a bigger issue.

[Just Alf]

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This might be the quote. Not the same as Just Alf said, but surely something no one could disagree with.

Thanks for this... was at work so it was a quick bit of typing on my phone... but yes, you're correct this was what I was meaning.

[Berwickhibby]

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Did the SNP vote the Tories into power or was that the South of England?

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No 11 SNP MP’s crossed the chamber and sided with a vote of no confidence against the Labour Government, giving the Tories enough votes to call a General Election. Only plus point was that 9 of the 1l lost their seat and said election.

[greenlex]

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Well we do have some insight as to why people voted and what influenced them, the EU was not a major factor in how people voted.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-ashcroft-poll

It sure as Hell would be now.

[Moulin Yarns]

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No 11 SNP MP’s crossed the chamber and sided with a vote of no confidence against the Labour Government, giving the Tories enough votes to call a General Election. Only plus point was that 9 of the 1l lost their seat and said election.

So did 13 Libdems, 5 UUP, 1 UUUP, 1 DUP and 1 Independent.

But Callaghan lost by 1 vot, how can you be sure it was the SNP vote and not one of the others????

[Kato]

Should there be a thread for those who imagine politics and democracy finished in 2014? Maybe another for those who imagine it was 1979?

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[Moulin Yarns]

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Should there be a thread for those who imagine politics and democracy finished in 2014? Maybe another for those who imagine it was 1979?

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Great idea, but I think that it will be an echo chamber for the same 3 or 4 posters.

[He's here!]

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The hypocrisy is quite breathtaking when unionists use a couple of throwaway statements from the yes side as argumentation against a referendum but completely ignore the lies and promises made during the last one.

If the comments had been made by a couple of lesser SNP lights then sure, it would be stretching things to say they carried much long-term clout, but the independence movement has Alex Salmond to thank for making it relevant and it's not unreasonable to attach significant weight to what he (and Sturgeon) said. When it became clear that Scotland had voted no I have a clear memory of thinking 'thank *****, now we can get back on with our lives without all this p*sh'. Hard as it might be for 'yes' voters to absorb, 'no' voters were rightly hacked off to discover that 'once in a generation' turned out to mean that the bleating for another go began pretty much the very next day.

[lapsedhibee]

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If the comments had been made by a couple of lesser SNP lights then sure, it would be stretching things to say they carried much long-term clout, but the independence movement has Alex Salmond to thank for making it relevant and it's not unreasonable to attach significant weight to what he (and Sturgeon) said. When it became clear that Scotland had voted no I have a clear memory of thinking 'thank *****, now we can get back on with our lives without all this p*sh'. Hard as it might be for 'yes' voters to absorb, 'no' voters were rightly hacked off to discover that 'once in a generation' turned out to mean that the bleating for another go began pretty much the very next day.

This 'what someone said eight years ago means that a referendum now would be wrong' has all the weight of 'homosexuality is wrong because of what someone said in The Bible'. You have to close down all your rational faculties for it to have any merit at all.

[Steven79]

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If the comments had been made by a couple of lesser SNP lights then sure, it would be stretching things to say they carried much long-term clout, but the independence movement has Alex Salmond to thank for making it relevant and it's not unreasonable to attach significant weight to what he (and Sturgeon) said. When it became clear that Scotland had voted no I have a clear memory of thinking 'thank *****, now we can get back on with our lives without all this p*sh'. Hard as it might be for 'yes' voters to absorb, 'no' voters were rightly hacked off to discover that 'once in a generation' turned out to mean that the bleating for another go began pretty much the very next day.

Should the losing side in an election just accept the result forever?

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[He's here!]

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So did 13 Libdems, 5 UUP, 1 UUUP, 1 DUP and 1 Independent.

But Callaghan lost by 1 vot, how can you be sure it was the SNP vote and not one of the others????

Labour had committed to support for a Scottish Assembly and in the general election of 1974 the SNP gained won a record 11 seats. For them to cut a deal with the leader of an opposition party which opposed devolution, let alone independence, was very much a case (as Callaghan said) of turkeys voting for Christmas. Little surprise that playing a key role in Thatcher's ascension saw them lose all but two of their seats and enter decades in the doldrums. Plaid Cymru's MPs, incidentally, voted with the Labour government.

Sure, it was 40 plus years ago, but it remains an indelible, if inconvenient, part of the SNP's history.

[grunt]

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When it became clear that Scotland had voted no I have a clear memory of thinking 'thank *****, now we can get back on with our lives without all this p*sh'.

Agree! Because life under the Tories is brilliant!! I love living in a country governed by a party that the country hasn't voted for in 66 years. Like a real democracy should be.

[He's here!]

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Should the losing side in an election just accept the result forever?

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No, obviously not when your raison d'etre is to achieve independence. I'm just pointing out that it's not unreasonable to use the once in a generation/lifetime claim as a stick to beat them with, given that it was the leading light of the losing side who stated it.

[grunt]

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If the comments had been made by a couple of lesser SNP lights then sure, it would be stretching things to say they carried much long-term clout, but the independence movement has Alex Salmond to thank for making it relevant and it's not unreasonable to attach significant weight to what he (and Sturgeon) said.

Can you really not tell the difference between an exhortation to vote and a legal statute?

[grunt]

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No, obviously not when your raison d'etre is to achieve independence. I'm just pointing out that it's not unreasonable to use the once in a generation/lifetime claim as a stick to beat them with, given that it was the leading light of the losing side who stated it.

Oh so you don't believe it, you're just using it to stir up the thread?

[He's here!]

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Agree! Because life under the Tories is brilliant!! I love living in a country governed by a party that the country hasn't voted for in 66 years. Like a real democracy should be.

Depends whether you regard living in the UK as 'life under the Tories' I guess. As I've made clear, there are numerous more meaningful aspects of being British for me than who happens to be in power at Westminster.

It's not so long ago, though, that we had a Labour government in power for over a decade, one which the Scottish electorate voted for in droves. The mantra that we never get what we vote for is a myth which suits the SNP to perpetuate.

[He's here!]

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Oh so you don't believe it, you're just using it to stir up the thread?

It's just my opinion. I don't expect independence supporters to agree with it, but IMHO it's reasonable and shared by many.

[James310]

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Oh so you don't believe it, you're just using it to stir up the thread?

Just because you don't agree with poster A or B doesn't mean they are trolling or stirring. They just have a different opinion to you.

[Moulin Yarns]

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Labour had committed to support for a Scottish Assembly and in the general election of 1974 the SNP gained won a record 11 seats. For them to cut a deal with the leader of an opposition party which opposed devolution, let alone independence, was very much a case (as Callaghan said) of turkeys voting for Christmas. Little surprise that playing a key role in Thatcher's ascension saw them lose all but two of their seats and enter decades in the doldrums. Plaid Cymru's MPs, incidentally, voted with the Labour government.

Sure, it was 40 plus years ago, but it remains an indelible, if inconvenient, part of the SNP's history.

Cut a deal??? Where is your proof? 1 vote, out of more than 20. Go on prove that the single vote was an snp vote!!!

[ronaldo7]

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It's just my opinion. I don't expect independence supporters to agree with it, but IMHO it's reasonable and shared by many.

Maybe you could read this from someone who was there. It might refresh your memory.

It might even give you an incite into what actually happened. The deal that could have kept Callaghan in government which they decided not to do, and much more. Poor old Alfred Broughton was told not to bother turning up for the vote.

I get that Britnats will want to bash the Scotnats at all times, but their was too much going on in 1979, and the proceeding years to pin it all on the SNP, although that's been your want.

Happy reading.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-1979-thatcher

[Keith_M]

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Well we do have some insight as to why people voted and what influenced them, the EU was not a major factor in how people voted.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-ashcroft-poll

It says in that article that 15% of people that voted No stated the prospect of leaving the EU was a major factor in their vote.

Three other major factors stated by No voters were 'Pensions', 'Defence & Security', 'Oil and Benefits'... all part of Project Fear.


You really need to read articles properly before posting them as evidence.

[James310]

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It says in that article that 15% of people that voted No stated the prospect of leaving the EU was a major factor in their vote.

Three other major factors stated by No voters were 'Pensions', 'Defence & Security', 'Oil and Benefits'... all part of Project Fear.


You really need to read articles properly before posting them as evidence.

Eh? Not even 2 out of 10 people said it was a major issue. That makes it NOT a major factor for the vast majority by some considerable margin.

[grunt]

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Eh? Not even 2 out of 10 people said it was a major issue. That makes it NOT a major factor for the vast majority by some considerable margin.

I'm not sure you can come to that conclusion when respondents were limited to "2 or 3" major issues in their replies. There may have been other issues which loomed larger (NHS, pensions) but by artificially limiting replies you can't be certain that the EU was not a major issue, it just wasn't in the top 2 or 3 for most people.

[James310]

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I'm not sure you can come to that conclusion when respondents were limited to "2 or 3" major issues in their replies. There may have been other issues which loomed larger (NHS, pensions) but by artificially limiting replies you can't be certain that the EU was not a major issue, it just wasn't in the top 2 or 3 for most people.

I came to that conclusion because if the EU factor was a major issue it would have scored higher than most of the other major issues, it didn't.