Scotrail

[Keith_M]

South side of Glasgow into town is now down to one per hour on a Sunday.

The website says it's mostly down to a shortage of drivers.

[neil7908]

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Would you agree with banning drinks in parks, what about restaurants, pubs or ban it full stop.

Parks yes, absolutely. I lived in Glasgow for years and can't say my life was curtailed massively by not drinking when I was out about.

Restaurants, bars and pubs are totally different as someone is 1) letting you in (or not) depending on what state your in and 2) you are being served by someone who is also making an assessment and can cut you off. They are also not traveling at 100mph, so if there is trouble, it's much easier to get help.

We have a deeply unhealthy relationship with booze in this country and we need to start taking action to change our culture. Reducing the number of places you can have a bevvy isn't a bad thing imo.

[neil7908]

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The thing is though, we're actually doing nothing to solve these problems.

We're just taking rights away from the general public.

Incredible that some people are prepared to accept that when there seems to be no evidence whatsoever that it is making a difference.

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Happy to fight for my human rights.

The right to drink whenever and wherever I feel like it isn't one of them though.

I also can't get a drink in a hospital, maybe we should be asking for a bar at the ERI? Why are we punishing the general public who just want a pint after visiting their nan following her hip surgery 😂😂?

[Stairway 2 7]

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Parks yes, absolutely. I lived in Glasgow for years and can't say my life was curtailed massively by not drinking when I was out about.

Restaurants, bars and pubs are totally different as someone is 1) letting you in (or not) depending on what state your in and 2) you are being served by someone who is also making an assessment and can cut you off. They are also not traveling at 100mph, so if there is trouble, it's much easier to get help.

We have a deeply unhealthy relationship with booze in this country and we need to start taking action to change our culture. Reducing the number of places you can have a bevvy isn't a bad thing imo.

Drinking has plummeted since 2009 we've almost dropped to English levels, youth Drinking plummeting from a few years before that. Things are getting better and will over the next few decades and it's not through prohibition and banning that doesn't work, it's through education.

[Stairway 2 7]

Uk drinks less than most eu nations and binge drink less than many too. But they can drink at football and transport OK. We've dropped a huge amount in the last decade and it's down to education not banning anything. From the press and public opinion I bet people think we drink the most. Youth Drinking dropping so the fall will be sustained

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[Ozyhibby]

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Drinking has plummeted since 2009 we've almost dropped to English levels, youth Drinking plummeting from a few years before that. Things are getting better and will over the next few decades and it's not through prohibition and banning that doesn't work, it's through education.

I’m dead against prohibition but this isn’t that.


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[Stairway 2 7]

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I’m dead against prohibition but this isn’t that.


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The act of prohibition or being prohibited by law I mean. Same with the football. People in Europe drink more and fans are just as radge but they can be trusted with a pint. In England it looks like they are going to not only be able to have a drink at the concourse, but also at their seat soon.

[danhibees1875]

Next: signal workers.

95% of services cancelled next Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday. A few Edinburgh and Glasgow lines will remain open with a limited service.

Significant disruption on the other days also.

[Onceinawhile]

On the bright side, lots of people going to the Ed Sheeran concerts over the next few days will be hugely inconvenienced, and for going to see Ed Sheeran, frankly, they deserve it.

[SChibs]

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Parks yes, absolutely. I lived in Glasgow for years and can't say my life was curtailed massively by not drinking when I was out about.

Restaurants, bars and pubs are totally different as someone is 1) letting you in (or not) depending on what state your in and 2) you are being served by someone who is also making an assessment and can cut you off. They are also not traveling at 100mph, so if there is trouble, it's much easier to get help.

We have a deeply unhealthy relationship with booze in this country and we need to start taking action to change our culture. Reducing the number of places you can have a bevvy isn't a bad thing imo.

So because you weren't fussed for something folk who would like to do it, and do it responsibly without causing trouble shouldn't be able to?

[heretoday]

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Parks yes, absolutely. I lived in Glasgow for years and can't say my life was curtailed massively by not drinking when I was out about.

Restaurants, bars and pubs are totally different as someone is 1) letting you in (or not) depending on what state your in and 2) you are being served by someone who is also making an assessment and can cut you off. They are also not traveling at 100mph, so if there is trouble, it's much easier to get help.

We have a deeply unhealthy relationship with booze in this country and we need to start taking action to change our culture. Reducing the number of places you can have a bevvy isn't a bad thing imo.

Good post.

[Stairway 2 7]

We drink less than most European nations, binge less. Our drinking levels have fallen fast since 2003. Youth Drinking is collapsing over the last ten years, so alcohol consumption will go down further.

But I'd bet Scots think we drink more and worse.

[SChibs]

Theres been a big increase in youths going round on bikes (probably stolen) and motorbikes causing mayhem. Some of the stuff they are getting up to is the definition of antisocial behaviour. Imagine the council tried to ban bikes completely because of the link to antisocial behaviour despite the fact majority of folk aren't the cause. It's the same for alcohol on trains, in parks etc.

[neil7908]

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So because you weren't fussed for something folk who would like to do it, and do it responsibly without causing trouble shouldn't be able to?

Yup. Unfortunately far too many people can't handle their drink, and sadly end up inflicting this on others. Of course that's not the majority of drinkers but it's enough. And again, I don't believe being denied a drink, even for a responsible drinker, is a particular outrage.

I'll say it again - getting a drink is not a universal human right that I feel needs to be especially protected.

[Stairway 2 7]

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[Ozyhibby]

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Theres been a big increase in youths going round on bikes (probably stolen) and motorbikes causing mayhem. Some of the stuff they are getting up to is the definition of antisocial behaviour. Imagine the council tried to ban bikes completely because of the link to antisocial behaviour despite the fact majority of folk aren't the cause. It's the same for alcohol on trains, in parks etc.

And clothes as well. 99% of crime is committed by the fully clothed. It’s getting out of hand and something needs to be done about it. It’s an epidemic. We won’t be safe until we’re all in the nudie.


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[overdrive]

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We drink less than most European nations, binge less. Our drinking levels have fallen fast since 2003. Youth Drinking is collapsing over the last ten years, so alcohol consumption will go down further.

But I'd bet Scots think we drink more and worse.

Your last point is a very good one as I’m really surprised by what you said in the first paragraph other than youth drinking which I can well believe. I managed a guy just out of school a few years ago and he said alcohol wasn’t a big thing in his generation. Cocaine was the poison of choice more so than alcohol according to him (not necessarily him himself).

[Ozyhibby]

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We drink less than most European nations, binge less. Our drinking levels have fallen fast since 2003. Youth Drinking is collapsing over the last ten years, so alcohol consumption will go down further.

But I'd bet Scots think we drink more and worse.

I can quite believe that. I think there has been massive changes in the last 20 years. And it won’t be one big policy change that’s done it. It’s lots of little ones. Good news.


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[Mibbes Aye]

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We drink less than most European nations, binge less. Our drinking levels have fallen fast since 2003. Youth Drinking is collapsing over the last ten years, so alcohol consumption will go down further.

But I'd bet Scots think we drink more and worse.

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I can quite believe that. I think there has been massive changes in the last 20 years. And it won’t be one big policy change that’s done it. It’s lots of little ones. Good news.


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This thread isn't specifically about alcohol misuse but comparing pro capita consumption across European nations misses the point when it comes to measuring harm.

The real story is alcohol-specific deaths. They rose 17% between 2019 and 2020. Potentially you could attribute the impact of the pandemic to that but alcohol-specific deaths relate to alcohol-specific conditions that generally develop over years, so we are talking about patterns of behaviour that predated the pandemic by a long chalk.

Alcohol-specific deaths have increased by 200% in the last forty years and increased most dramarically from the early nineties to around fifteen years ago. It's been a rough levelling-off of around 1,000 deaths each year since then. And that doesn't include deaths where alcohol misuse was merely a contributing factor to ill-health (or wasn't coded as alcohol-related when deaths are registered).

Dividing the amount of alcohol bought by the size of the population doesn't illustrate that Scotland has a genuine problem where a lot of people drink to beyond hazardous levels and beyond harmful levels and die at the rate of roughly three a day, every day, every week, every month and so on.

[Ozyhibby]

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This thread isn't specifically about alcohol misuse but comparing pro capita consumption across European nations misses the point when it comes to measuring harm.

The real story is alcohol-specific deaths. They rose 17% between 2019 and 2020. Potentially you could attribute the impact of the pandemic to that but alcohol-specific deaths relate to alcohol-specific conditions that generally develop over years, so we are talking about patterns of behaviour that predated the pandemic by a long chalk.

Alcohol-specific deaths have increased by 200% in the last forty years and increased most dramarically from the early nineties to around fifteen years ago. It's been a rough levelling-off of around 1,000 deaths each year since then. And that doesn't include deaths where alcohol misuse was merely a contributing factor to ill-health (or wasn't coded as alcohol-related when deaths are registered).

Dividing the amount of alcohol bought by the size of the population doesn't illustrate that Scotland has a genuine problem where a lot of people drink to beyond hazardous levels and beyond harmful levels and die at the rate of roughly three a day, every day, every week, every month and so on.

Is it possible that this could be a lagging indicator though? That the changes in behaviour of the young ones now will result in a future drop in deaths from misuse?


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[Mibbes Aye]

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Is it possible that this could be a lagging indicator though? That the changes in behaviour of the young ones now will result in a future drop in deaths from misuse?


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It's a difficult one.

If we are talking about drinking amongst the general (young) population, it is a case of predicting whether behaviours or attitudes change over time. A popular topic on here is Scottish independence and I think most folk, if asked, would agree that younger voters are more inclined to vote Yes. If they voted that way then 2014 would have seen these new young voters plus the voters who were young in 1979 and it should have been a landslide! That's not backed up by any reliable data, I hasten to add, but illustrates potentially how behaviours in younger years do shift.

What is reliable data is that around problematic drinking amongst teenagers. If we were using European comparisons they would highlight that Scotland is really high, I think the Baltics lead the way on that front but Scotland isn't too far from the top. And there is enough public health evidence from longitudinal research to demonstrate that behaviours acquired at that young age are hard to shift.

Another variable is development in medicine generally - how we treat alcohol-specific disease and other alcohol-related conditions could easily extend life expectancy, albeit some of that living in ill-health. And cost of living might be seen as a counterweight to dangerous consumption but the reality is lots of anecdotal evidence of people prioritising alcohol rather than food, heating and everything else.

So the short answer is I would be wary of suggesting the figures will improve because of a perception that younger people drink less. If you think back to the early-mid nineties, we had a generation that was supposedly turning its back on alcohol in large numbers as rave culture embedded itself. Yet thirty years on, the death rate is massively higher and relatively stable.

The stats from the previous post were from rough memory but if anyone is interested in the data around this, Public Health Scotland provide loads of information and trend analysis on their website (about all health-related topics, not just drinking!)

[Hibernia&Alba]

Surely Bozo and his pals aren't so cynical?

[Stairway 2 7]

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This thread isn't specifically about alcohol misuse but comparing pro capita consumption across European nations misses the point when it comes to measuring harm.

The real story is alcohol-specific deaths. They rose 17% between 2019 and 2020. Potentially you could attribute the impact of the pandemic to that but alcohol-specific deaths relate to alcohol-specific conditions that generally develop over years, so we are talking about patterns of behaviour that predated the pandemic by a long chalk.

Alcohol-specific deaths have increased by 200% in the last forty years and increased most dramarically from the early nineties to around fifteen years ago. It's been a rough levelling-off of around 1,000 deaths each year since then. And that doesn't include deaths where alcohol misuse was merely a contributing factor to ill-health (or wasn't coded as alcohol-related when deaths are registered).

Dividing the amount of alcohol bought by the size of the population doesn't illustrate that Scotland has a genuine problem where a lot of people drink to beyond hazardous levels and beyond harmful levels and die at the rate of roughly three a day, every day, every week, every month and so on.

Alcohol related deaths changed the way they were recorded in the 2000s. That's why for decades before it always sat at around 400. Mental health alcohol related deaths ect were added so that's why it shot to 1400 in just a couple of years , things obviously didn't get over 3 times worse in a few years.



Like amount of alcohol drunk, binge drinking and teenage drinking, alcohol related deaths have dropped a huge amount since the 90s. From 1400s to 1000s they have been trickling about now. The pandemic year you obviously through out as that happened across the world.

Every measure has dropped a huge amount since the 90s, it will only get better over the next decade because each one effects the other.

[Mibbes Aye]

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Alcohol related deaths changed the way they were recorded in the 2000s. That's why for decades before it always sat at around 400. Mental health alcohol related deaths ect were added so that's why it shot to 1400 in just a couple of years , things obviously didn't get over 3 times worse in a few years.



Like amount of alcohol drunk, binge drinking and teenage drinking, alcohol related deaths have dropped a huge amount since the 90s. From 1400s to 1000s they have been trickling about now. The pandemic year you obviously through out as that happened across the world.

Every measure has dropped a huge amount since the 90s, it will only get better over the next decade because each one effects the other.

If you can't get the basics right then it's hard to take your views seriously.

Alcohol-specific deaths started rising in 1992, not the 2000s

They didn't sit at 400 for decades before - there are only data sets going back twelve years prior.

Deaths haven't dropped a hige amount since the 1990s. They were higher in 2020 than any year in the 1990s.

And perhaps most importantly, you don't deem to grasp the distinction between alcohol-specific deaths and alcohol-related deaths. Alcohol-specific means that the cause of death, medically, is 100% attributable to alcohol i.e. very specific diseases caused by alcohol. Alcohol-related means alcohol played a contributory factor in the cause of death. Stats generally have alcohol-relateds as running between two and four times as high as alcohol-specific, but there is a general acceptance that there is under-reporting when it comes to registering deaths that have multiple attribution codes

[Stairway 2 7]

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If you can't get the basics right then it's hard to take your views seriously.

Alcohol-specific deaths started rising in 1992, not the 2000s

They didn't sit at 400 for decades before - there are only data sets going back twelve years prior.

Deaths haven't dropped a hige amount since the 1990s. They were higher in 2020 than any year in the 1990s.

And perhaps most importantly, you don't deem to grasp the distinction between alcohol-specific deaths and alcohol-related deaths. Alcohol-specific means that the cause of death, medically, is 100% attributable to alcohol i.e. very specific diseases caused by alcohol. Alcohol-related means alcohol played a contributory factor in the cause of death. Stats generally have alcohol-relateds as running between two and four times as high as alcohol-specific, but there is a general acceptance that there is under-reporting when it comes to registering deaths that have multiple attribution codes

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If your going to be pedantic with dates then, it sat at around 400 until the 90s when they started changing how it was compiled. Phe says you can't compare post 2000 to pre , so I won't and its almost a quarter of a century so pointless anyway

Since the peak at the start of the century its came from 1400 to averaging around 1100 in the last 5 years. Its undeniably got better in the last 25 years. Add in overall alcohol consumption dropping , someone at hollyrood is doing something right in the last few decades

[Mibbes Aye]

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If your going to be pedantic with dates then, it sat at around 400 until the 90s when they started changing how it was compiled. Phe says you can't compare post 2000 to pre , so I won't and its almost a quarter of a century so pointless anyway

Since the peak at the start of the century its came from 1400 to averaging around 1100 in the last 5 years. Its undeniably got better in the last 25 years. Add in overall alcohol consumption dropping , someone at hollyrood is doing something right in the last few decades

I'm starting to understand your posting style. Take exception if someone disagrees with you, get argumentative, if you get it wrong don't own it, instead shift to something else, and always, always try and get the last word. It's like trying to have a discussion with Boris Johnson or Donald Trump. Are you an obese man with ludicrous hair and a need to dissemble and lie? Just kidding, you can have the last word if you like as this is all a bit circular and not really good, informed discussion.

Your first paragraph. If by 'pedantic' you mean 'correcting your errors' then yes, I am. Incidentally how did they change the compilation of the data? You do realise that they re-apply the metrics retrospectively, so that the data set is still comparing apples with apples?

when you say PHE say you can't compare post 2000 to pre 2000 re Scottish data that's news to me. Are you sure it wasn't a St Alban's player? Anyway, we are talking Scottish data not PHE's data and PHS are confident in the validity of their data set going back to 1979. Otherwise it's a bit like saying "...Hibs win the Scottish Cup once every six years, honest guv, yeah, I'm only measuring from 2016 though"!! And that sort of all applies to your second paragraph as well, really. It's a shame.

[Stairway 2 7]

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I'm starting to understand your posting style. Take exception if someone disagrees with you, get argumentative, if you get it wrong don't own it, instead shift to something else, and always, always try and get the last word. It's like trying to have a discussion with Boris Johnson or Donald Trump. Are you an obese man with ludicrous hair and a need to dissemble and lie? Just kidding, you can have the last word if you like as this is all a bit circular and not really good, informed discussion.

Your first paragraph. If by 'pedantic' you mean 'correcting your errors' then yes, I am. Incidentally how did they change the compilation of the data? You do realise that they re-apply the metrics retrospectively, so that the data set is still comparing apples with apples?

when you say PHE say you can't compare post 2000 to pre 2000 re Scottish data that's news to me. Are you sure it wasn't a St Alban's player? Anyway, we are talking Scottish data not PHE's data and PHS are confident in the validity of their data set going back to 1979. Otherwise it's a bit like saying "...Hibs win the Scottish Cup once every six years, honest guv, yeah, I'm only measuring from 2016 though"!! And that sort of all applies to your second paragraph as well, really. It's a shame.

I'd take the insult the wrong way if I wasn't mid 30s and in decent shape, but I'm sure your like arny. Phs obviously. It said they changed the way deaths were recorded so you can't directly compare.

You must agree there has been a massive drop in alcohol related deaths in the last 20 years with a small up tick recently.

I'd say it probably isn't fair to judge pre 1999 since the opening of Scots parliament. I'd go further and say its pointless before the snps 15 years as they have been in so long. Every metric you want is down in that time. I'm sure you'll agree they are doing an amazing job, although we have to keep an eye on the small rise.

Alcohol related deaths about a third down and alcohol consumed in total down 10%, since the snp. I bet it will continue thanks to youth Drinking going down

[SteveHFC]

Alcohol ban kept in place for the summer.

[Sir David Gray]

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Alcohol ban kept in place for the summer.

I'm shocked...

[He's here!]

How did a thread called Scotrail become a debate about alcohol misuse?

Re the railways I see next week's strikes are going ahead. Selfish f****ers.