SNP are lying b******s as well !

[James310]

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Is the current model the only way to run Scotland? Look at the difference between Scotland and Ireland economies now. Every year the gap grows bigger. How long do you want Scotland to be the poor cousins?

Ireland’s economy:-


And now look at Scotland’s:-


That is not a small gap.

Public spending in Scotland is only going one way with the Tories in London.
Don’t tell me there isn’t another way.


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There is always another way, but is it the right way?

I think we have done Ireland to death on here, has good points and bad points.

[Ozyhibby]

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There is always another way, but is it the right way?

I think we have done Ireland to death on here, has good points and bad points.

Guess it depends on whether you want Scotland to be wealthier or not. I can’t see much of a downside to doubling our GDP.


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[James310]

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Guess it depends on whether you want Scotland to be wealthier or not. I can’t see much of a downside to doubling our GDP.


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If only there was a plan that said Scotland is here in 2022 and to be like Ireland/Denmark/Norway (delete as appropriate) then we need to do X, Y and Z and it will take X number of years.

Until then it's a useless slogan. I think it was Mark Blythe the economic adviser to the SNP who ridiculed the whole lets be like Denmark etc. slogan.

"The problem that I’ve seen so far is the complete lack of specificity as to ‘here is what the Scottish business model is now, here is where we want to be, this is how we’re going to get from here to here by doing this’,” he said in an online interview.

“Instead of that what we’ve got is ‘Denmark is awesome, we should be like Denmark, if we were independent we would be Denmark’. No, you wouldn’t be Denmark. Denmark took 600 years to become Denmark."

[Ozyhibby]

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If only there was a plan that said Scotland is here in 2022 and to be like Ireland/Denmark/Norway (delete as appropriate) then we need to do X, Y and Z and it will take X number of years.

Until then it's a useless slogan. I think it was Mark Blythe the economic adviser to the SNP who ridiculed the whole lets be like Denmark etc. slogan.

"The problem that I’ve seen so far is the complete lack of specificity as to ‘here is what the Scottish business model is now, here is where we want to be, this is how we’re going to get from here to here by doing this’,” he said in an online interview.

“Instead of that what we’ve got is ‘Denmark is awesome, we should be like Denmark, if we were independent we would be Denmark’. No, you wouldn’t be Denmark. Denmark took 600 years to become Denmark."

600 years.
Both countries were poorer than Scotland when I was a kid. Scotland is more than capable of matching either of them without copying either model. What we definitely can’t do is match them while operating as part of the UK.
You say there should be a plan? That’s the one thing that is missing right now within the UK. There is zero plan at all to improve Scotland’s economy. None. Not even a pretend plan. They don’t care one little bit so don’t even bother to kid on there is a plan. We are just expected to just keep trundling along.
You want the SNP to produce a plan for powers they don’t have but are just as happy to have zero plan from London when they have all the levers over the economy?


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[James310]

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600 years.
Both countries were poorer than Scotland when I was a kid. Scotland is more than capable of matching either of them without copying either model. What we definitely can’t do is match them while operating as part of the UK.
You say there should be a plan? That’s the one thing that is missing right now within the UK. There is zero plan at all to improve Scotland’s economy. None. Not even a pretend plan. They don’t care one little bit so don’t even bother to kid on there is a plan. We are just expected to just keep trundling along.
You want the SNP to produce a plan for powers they don’t have but are just as happy to have zero plan from London when they have all the levers over the economy?


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Isn't the whole point of Independence to produce a plan for the powers they don't have and how they would use them, that's what the White Paper was?

[Ozyhibby]

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Isn't the whole point of Independence to produce a plan for the powers they don't have and how they would use them, that's what the White Paper was?

I’m sure there will be but I’m also sure it will be up for change every five years of the election cycle.
What I’m also sure of just now is that Scotland is massively underperforming and Labour and the Tories seem to be just fine with that and actually celebrate it every year when GERS is published.


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[Ozyhibby]

Here is Denmark’s economy. Totally different from Irelands economy, showing that there is no set way of doing things. We could copy either or do our own thing.
What they do have in common is that they are both smashing Scotland out the park.


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[James310]

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I’m sure there will be but I’m also sure it will be up for change every five years of the election cycle.
What I’m also sure of just now is that Scotland is massively underperforming and Labour and the Tories seem to be just fine with that and actually celebrate it every year when GERS is published.


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A few posts back I just read a huge list of all the successful things that are being done in Scotland, free this and free that and everything else that's wonderful just now. It's confusing if we are doing really well or really bad.

[James310]

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Here is Denmark’s economy. Totally different from Irelands economy, showing that there is no set way of doing things. We could copy either or do our own thing.
What they do have in common is that they are both smashing Scotland out the park.


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We could yes, nobody is saying we can't.

But as I say just saying we can be Ireland/Norway/Denmark is all good and well, but it's meaningless.

Denmark for example have really high income tax rate, would people in Scotland be willing to pay significantly more tax to be like Denmark? Some will some won't.

[Ozyhibby]

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We could yes, nobody is saying we can't.

But as I say just saying we can be Ireland/Norway/Denmark is all good and well, but it's meaningless.

Denmark for example have really high income tax rate, would people in Scotland be willing to pay significantly more tax to be like Denmark? Some will some won't.

I think they might if they were earning the money the Danes are?


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[Ozyhibby]

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A few posts back I just read a huge list of all the successful things that are being done in Scotland, free this and free that and everything else that's wonderful just now. It's confusing if we are doing really well or really bad.

We are doing as well as we can with the tools we have. We would like more tools though.


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[James310]

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I think they might if they were earning the money the Danes are?


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Maybe, but the changes you are suggesting are quite radical and the SNP are not exactly known for radical change. Their policy for Indy up to now is very much don't rock the boat, keep things as close to they are today, for example, keep the pound, stay in NATO, join the EU, keep the Queen even.

And yes maybe 5 or 10 years after Indy a party may emerge that offers this but again it would be radical and the people of Scotland are actually pretty conservative (with a small c!)

[greenginger]

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What an ambition for Scotland, begging of our neighbour for money.


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But not afraid to boast about all the benefits Scotland gets from additional spending enabled by the Barnet Formula.

There’s no begging involved.

[James310]

On the Ireland comparison they have a corporation tax rate of 12.5%, one of the lowest in Europe. That's why they get Facebook, Google and Apple etc locating there. A while back this place was critical of the Chancellor when he was refusing to raise corporation tax! Are we saying an independent Scotland would slash corporation tax to be like Ireland?

So it's a bit all over the place, Ireland is basically a tax haven with low corporation tax yet if the chancellor cut corporation tax you would have most of the same people moaning about how the tax cut helps the fat cat Tory's etc

And of course Ireland has no NHS to fund.

[Smartie]

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On the Ireland comparison they have a corporation tax rate of 12.5%, one of the lowest in Europe. That's why they get Facebook, Google and Apple etc locating there. A while back this place was critical of the Chancellor when he was refusing to raise corporation tax! Are we saying an independent Scotland would slash corporation tax to be like Ireland?

So it's a bit all over the place, Ireland is basically a tax haven with low corporation tax yet if the chancellor cut corporation tax you would have most of the same people moaning about how the tax cut helps the fat cat Tory's etc

I can see the merit in either approach... and would be perfectly comfortable with either of the two, just as long as the decision to go with either approach was made in Edinburgh, for the benefit of the Scottish people as a whole and with the absolute accountability for making a success of it.

The direction of travel within this union is not good, even if once served us well.

[Ozyhibby]

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On the Ireland comparison they have a corporation tax rate of 12.5%, one of the lowest in Europe. That's why they get Facebook, Google and Apple etc locating there. A while back this place was critical of the Chancellor when he was refusing to raise corporation tax! Are we saying an independent Scotland would slash corporation tax to be like Ireland?

So it's a bit all over the place, Ireland is basically a tax haven with low corporation tax yet if the chancellor cut corporation tax you would have most of the same people moaning about how the tax cut helps the fat cat Tory's etc

And of course Ireland has no NHS to fund.

Are you saying the Irish govt doesn’t fund healthcare?


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[Smartie]

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Are you saying the Irish govt doesn’t fund healthcare?


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It would be fair to say that it doesn't fund it anywhere near as well as the UK.

Whether the population as a whole is any worse off for that is an entirely different story...

[James310]

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Are you saying the Irish govt doesn’t fund healthcare?


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Not to the tune of £150BN+ a year it doesn't. It's about 10% of that.

[degenerated]

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It would be fair to say that it doesn't fund it anywhere near as well as the UK.

Whether the population as a whole is any worse off for that is an entirely different story...

We could mirror some of the other small countries in Europe that do spend similar amounts on healthcare, like Belgium, Holland and Denmark.

Norway also do but not a great example as unlike Scotland they managed to use their oil to create a fund for these sort of things rather than to finance the infrastructure of a neighbouring countries capital city.

[James310]

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I would say it’s about 49% but I don’t suppose that matters just now as no campaign is underway.


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https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/1...36236e83d39b4d



"Nicola Sturgeon has failed to achieve the SNP’s main objective of boosting support for Scottish independence over her record seven years as first minister, a poll has found.

Having occupied Bute House for a total of seven years, six months and five days, Sturgeon has overtaken her predecessor Alex Salmond — who quit after the 2014 independence referendum — to become the longest-serving first minister today. However, research by YouGov for The Times shows that voters are no more inclined to break up the UK in 2022 than they were when Sturgeon came into office.

When “don’t knows” are excluded from the latest poll, 55 per cent continue to back the Union while 45 per cent favour Scottish independence — the same result as the 2014 referendum."


Actually only 38% of people were on the day the poll was asked willing to say they would vote for Independence.

[grunt]

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"Nicola Sturgeon has failed to achieve the SNP’s main objective of boosting support for Scottish independence over her record seven years as first minister, a poll has found.

The Times is a Tory right wing unionist rag. I don't believe a word they say.

[ronaldo7]

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Does Glasgow have the UK’s highest violent crime rate? Is there a source for that?


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I've tried to see a source which validated that claim, but it seems to be bringing up cities in England more often than not.

In other news HS2 doesn't go to Wales.

[James310]

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The Times is a Tory right wing unionist rag. I don't believe a word they say.

It's The Times reporting a poll, not The Times saying it themselves.

[ronaldo7]

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That was the Smith Commission that delivered that, yes she enacted the policy but you could argue it's a success of devolution. Allowing Scotland to make different choices and having the funds to do so.

Education and closing the attainment gap was what she wanted judged on but I think that was harder than she probably thought it would be.

When you say it's a success of devolution. Do you mean the devolution we were given in 1999, or the devolution as it stands now?

We know it's evolved over the last 20 years but it seems to be going into reverse, with tory ministers from London dabbling in devolved areas of responsibility, and taking control from Scottish ministers.

Lord hope of craighead, former first deputy of the Supreme Court, speaking on the internal market bill.

"The devolved powers are rendered worthless by this new system. UK ministers are given powers to do things which contravene the devolution settlements without consultation let alone consent".

In other words, we're not getting more powers, the Tories are taking them away.

[James310]

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I've tried to see a source which validated that claim, but it seems to be bringing up cities in England more often than not.

In other news HS2 doesn't go to Wales.

Not sure how old this is but backs it up, think it's about a year old.

https://www.beltramiandcompany.co.uk...ful-urban-area

[Moulin Yarns]

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/over-11...sing-last-year


Back to the success of the Scottish Government (at least partially)

[Moulin Yarns]

Maybe we should compare the tenure of the longest serving first minister with the longest serving prime minister?

Guess who? 🙄

[lapsedhibee]

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Maybe we should compare the tenure of the longest serving first minister with the longest serving prime minister?

Guess who? 🙄

Walpole?

[Moulin Yarns]

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Walpole?

Yes, but he wasn't officially titled as prime minister.

The first prime minister of the UK as it is currently was Bonar Law.


Maybe qualify it to longest serving prime minister for the party with the most votes.

[James310]

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Yes, but he wasn't officially titled as prime minister.

The first prime minister of the UK as it is currently was Bonar Law.


Maybe qualify it to longest serving prime minister for the party with the most votes.

Maybe it's me, what point are you making here?