The Trans Rights Debate

[Hibernia&Alba]

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It's getting so much attention because it's the first time it's been an issue. Female records are getting broken by trans athletes and prizes given. It would be huge worldwide news at any time

Partly, but I would say there are some very disingenuous public/media figures who are using transgenderism for propaganda purposes, in the same way other minority groups are scapegoated.

[Moulin Yarns]

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If the conceded sports and shared spaces then there would be almost no issue for most.

They should be able to beat men, they have the same natural biology

It might be simple to you, but, a transgender woman who has had full surgery, after years of trauma and tens of thousands of pounds realignment surgery has no rights according to you! Are you going to force them into male changing rooms? Same goes for a transgender man who has also spent years and tens of thousands, but has maybe only had top surgery. Where does he go?


It's not all about predatory men trying to sneak into women's toilets!!

[LewysGot2]

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Partly, but I would say there are some very disingenuous public/media figures who are using transgenderism for propaganda purposes, in the same way other minority groups are scapegoated.

Just as there are ideologically driven activists pushing from behind the trans rights angle and not always helping those who just want to go about their lives quietly or who don't want access to single sex spaces.

Any trans woman who openly says they don't want to access female sport or spaces because they don't think it's fair are targeted by these idealogical activists as heretics. Debbie Hayton and other high profile trans women have been attacked for defending single sex spaces. Detransitioners have also been very openly attacked for expressing their concerns about automatic affirmation of dysphoria and undergoing medical intervention they subsequently regret . Keira Bell being a case in question.

It is genuinely fascinating that the recommendation for affirmation of gender dysphoria is the perceived wisdom from various organisations and psychologists where the affirmation of other body dysphorias would be either deemed unsafe or culturally inappropriate. Eating disorders due to body dysphoria are not affirmed. People claiming to feel they are the wrong race are not affirmed. What is different about those feeling they are the opposite sex? It's honestly not clear to me... You wouldn't tell an anorexic they are fat.

I certainly don't know how it feels to be the opposite sex. Yeah, we have commonality in terms of key processes of life being the same but I'll never have to choose between a career or having a family, or give birth, or menstruate every month or know the physics of a very different body mechanics. And, of course, they would be the same vice versa.

It's reported there's a 4000% increase in demand for top surgery in teens in the last couple of years - the biggest area of growth is teenage girls who are often on the spectrum. The risk there is social contagion at play here too is concerning.

It's a shame there's potential hijacking of this all by the ideologically driven left and right for different motives because at the heart of all this is genuine concern for human beings dysphoria and, as a consequence, their physical health.

[Stairway 2 7]

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It might be simple to you, but, a transgender woman who has had full surgery, after years of trauma and tens of thousands of pounds realignment surgery has no rights according to you! Are you going to force them into male changing rooms? Same goes for a transgender man who has also spent years and tens of thousands, but has maybe only had top surgery. Where does he go?


It's not all about predatory men trying to sneak into women's toilets!!

Pish and twisting as usual. No rights 😆 i said every right bar two. If you actually read I said there should be unisex changing as a standard, as disabled toilets are in buildings.

If not. Then it's up to the biological females to decide and most don't want trans women there. Who are you to say misogynisticly what females should be happy with.

[LewysGot2]

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It might be simple to you, but, a transgender woman who has had full surgery, after years of trauma and tens of thousands of pounds realignment surgery has no rights according to you! Are you going to force them into male changing rooms? Same goes for a transgender man who has also spent years and tens of thousands, but has maybe only had top surgery. Where does he go?


It's not all about predatory men trying to sneak into women's toilets!!

You're absolutely right but the examples of fully transitioned people are not what the umbrella term trans means in reality. It now covers everything from those individuals to autogynephiles who get their kicks from dressing as women to individuals like Lia Thomas where there is no surgery but some hormone treatment.

From a perspective of safe guarding how do people protect the vulnerable - natal women (and those male born who could be vulnerable in specfic circumstances) currently mitigated foe with single sex spaces? Third spaces, perhaps? They're not universally acceptable either it seems?

[Moulin Yarns]

https://twitter.com/eilidhdouglas/st...9Z0ZcPtBA&s=19


😡

[Stairway 2 7]

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https://twitter.com/eilidhdouglas/st...9Z0ZcPtBA&s=19


😡

Where do lesbians fit in her analogy. They are abuses by sections if they say they wouldn't go with a trans female. TERF is banded about constantly

[LewysGot2]

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https://twitter.com/eilidhdouglas/st...9Z0ZcPtBA&s=19


😡

The LGB community seem to have mixed feelings on the issues...and that's just going on the replies to that Twitter post.


https://www.newsweek.com/new-homophobia-opinion-1698969


https://mobile.twitter.com/Jebadoo2/status/1517627635869888514

[147lothian]

This sums up the logic of the identity politics / woke slogan transwomen are women.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sgjc29QCGo

[superfurryhibby]

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Partly, but I would say there are some very disingenuous public/media figures who are using transgenderism for propaganda purposes, in the same way other minority groups are scapegoated.

There are also public figures jumping onto to sone kind of woke- anti freedom of speech bandwagon and using their support of gender self identification to scapegoat women who gave the audacity to speak out against it.

[Stairway 2 7]

Can a trans women who doesn't have surgery or hormones and also has a beard, be a lesbian

https://www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstru...e-couldnt-be-h

[CropleyWasGod]

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Can a trans women who doesn't have surgery or hormones and also has a beard, be a lesbian

https://www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstru...e-couldnt-be-h

I'd say why not? It's really none of anyone else's business what label they put on themselves. They're in a committed relationship, and that's all that should matter.

That won't stop others talking about them, of course, but so what?

[Stairway 2 7]

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I'd say why not? It's really none of anyone else's business what label they put on themselves. They're in a committed relationship, and that's all that should matter.

That won't stop others talking about them, of course, but so what?

I'd probably agree with who cares. But it's becoming the hot topic. Lesbian females who say they wouldn't go with trans women are being targeted as being bigoted, TERF is thrown out regularly. Lots of feminists are also opposing trans saying they are 100% female

[CropleyWasGod]

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I'd probably agree with who cares. But it's becoming the hot topic. Lesbian females who say they wouldn't go with trans women are being targeted as being bigoted, TERF is thrown out regularly. Lots of feminists are also opposing trans saying they are 100% female

That's not new in LGB circles. Gay men not being keen on bisexual men, for example, is a common thing. Doesn't make it right or wrong, it's down to personal choice and taste, and again IMO it's a "so what?" for everyone not directly affected.

Reading Twitter about this today, as the start of Lesbian Visibility Week, it's another opportunity for the shouters at the extremes of the trans debate to scream the same things they have been screaming for years.

[Stairway 2 7]

The only problem I can see comes back to the same two things sports and female only areas. As much as I want this woman in the article to have every legal right as a female. They simply shouldn't be allowed in female sports. I also wouldn't be happy if she was in the gym changing room with my teen daughter. That might make me bigoted but I asked her and she says no way, she's very Liberal with most things too.

I think the only way is heavy investment in unisex areas.

[LewysGot2]

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I'd say why not? It's really none of anyone else's business what label they put on themselves. They're in a committed relationship, and that's all that should matter.

That won't stop others talking about them, of course, but so what?

Are same sex attracted individuals entitled to own their own language and definitions? This individual is technically in a heterosexual relationship but identifies as a women. The reframing of what homosexuality means as part of gender based queer theory definitely appears offensive to a fair number of same sex attracted gay people.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Are same sex attracted individuals entitled to own their own language and definitions? This individual is technically in a heterosexual relationship but identifies as a women. The reframing of what homosexuality means as part of gender based queer theory definitely appears offensive to a fair number of same sex attracted gay people.

They are entitled to be offended if they find it offensive. No argument there.

However, as many (of all sexualities) have been pointing out, there is no overarching authority to decide what constitutes "gay". Such is the fluid nature of the spectrum of sexuality that definition is virtually impossible.

For example, in HIV treatment circles, "men who have sex with men" is (or used to be) a term used to enable outreach to a particular marginalised sector of society. Many people might define them as "gay", but they don't identify themselves as such. Hence self-identity can be very important.

[LewysGot2]

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They are entitled to be offended if they find it offensive. No argument there.

However, as many (of all sexualities) have been pointing out, there is no overarching authority to decide what constitutes "gay". Such is the fluid nature of the spectrum of sexuality that definition is virtually impossible.

For example, in HIV treatment circles, "men who have sex with men" is (or used to be) a term used to enable outreach to a particular marginalised sector of society. Many people might define them as "gay", but they don't identify themselves as such. Hence self-identity can be very important.

Interested why Alex Drummond doesn't see themself or celebrate being a gender non conforming biological male? It's something people were fighting for acceptance for 40 years ago - high profile GNC males included Bowie, Boy George etc Annie Lennox a high profile GNC female. Gender itself seems awfy steeped in stereotypes?

Interesting they talk about widening the bandwidth of what it is to be a woman. Why not widening the bandwidth of what it is to be a man?

[superfurryhibby]

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Can a trans women who doesn't have surgery or hormones and also has a beard, be a lesbian

https://www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstru...e-couldnt-be-h

I must try that line the next time I’m chatting to a female lesbian. I suspect they may laugh at me.

[James310]

It's getting ridiculous now.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/s...nant-bsxvj0dcp

"Midwifery students in Scotland were taught that biological males can become pregnant and issued with guidance on how to catheterise “birthing people” with penises"

Biological males getting pregnant?

[CropleyWasGod]

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It's getting ridiculous now.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/s...nant-bsxvj0dcp

"Midwifery students in Scotland were taught that biological males can become pregnant and issued with guidance on how to catheterise “birthing people” with penises"

Biological males getting pregnant?

The article is quite clear. It was a mistake, which has been corrected.

Nothing more sinister than that.

[Bristolhibby]

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It might be simple to you, but, a transgender woman who has had full surgery, after years of trauma and tens of thousands of pounds realignment surgery has no rights according to you! Are you going to force them into male changing rooms? Same goes for a transgender man who has also spent years and tens of thousands, but has maybe only had top surgery. Where does he go?


It's not all about predatory men trying to sneak into women's toilets!!

I know, it’s like they have picked the worst possible imagined hypothetical situation and presented it as the norm.

J

[Stairway 2 7]

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I know, it’s like they have picked the worst possible imagined hypothetical situation and presented it as the norm.

J

How's that comparable with someone with a ***** changing next to females. The fact is the majority of women asked usually say they don't want it, so why should different people born males all tell them they are wrong

Make unisex changing areas compulsory and problem gone

[James310]

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The article is quite clear. It was a mistake, which has been corrected.

Nothing more sinister than that.

Not according to the Telegraph.

"However, The Telegraph understands that the wording of the guide has not been changed and the university on Thursday stood by it."

Even still, it's not a "mistake" in the sense of a spelling error, someone wrote it and agreed with it and likely someone signed it off.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Not according to the Telegraph.

"However, The Telegraph understands that the wording of the guide has not been changed and the university on Thursday stood by it."

Even still, it's not a "mistake" in the sense of a spelling error, someone wrote it and agreed with it and likely someone signed it off.

The teacher later amended the original note: “Apologies for the wording being the wrong way round. This situation refers to a female who has transitioned to male. So the person has surgery to construct a ***** but still has a uterus and may conceive.”

From the article you posted.

[James310]

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The teacher later amended the original note: “Apologies for the wording being the wrong way round. This situation refers to a female who has transitioned to male. So the person has surgery to construct a ***** but still has a uterus and may conceive.”

From the article you posted.

Sounds like a feeble excuse when they also talked about the birthing person having a prostate gland, if what that person quoted said was true they would not refer to any prostate gland and I am pretty sure that's not part of the surgery....doesn't add up.

"Midwifery students were advised that “male persons should be warned of discomfort as the deflated balloon passes through the prostate gland”, a part of anatomy that is only found in biological males"

https://archive.ph/e4tCN

[Moulin Yarns]

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How's that comparable with someone with a ***** changing next to females. The fact is the majority of women asked usually say they don't want it, so why should different people born males all tell them they are wrong

Make unisex changing areas compulsory and problem gone

66% of women are comfortable with transgender women using shared spaces. Don't know where you get the majority?!

[CropleyWasGod]

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Sounds like a feeble excuse when they also talked about the birthing person having a prostate gland, if what that person quoted said was true they would not refer to any prostate gland and I am pretty sure that's not part of the surgery....doesn't add up.

"Midwifery students were advised that “male persons should be warned of discomfort as the deflated balloon passes through the prostate gland”, a part of anatomy that is only found in biological males"

https://archive.ph/e4tCN

Are you suggesting that students were deliberately given false information ?

It's a **** up. A bad one. But you seem to be saying that it's part of some sort of wider agenda. Are you?

[Moulin Yarns]

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How's that comparable with someone with a ***** changing next to females. The fact is the majority of women asked usually say they don't want it, so why should different people born males all tell them they are wrong

Make unisex changing areas compulsory and problem gone

Surely unisex changing facilities have the same problem, exacerbated with all genders sharing the same space!!!

[Stairway 2 7]

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66% of women are comfortable with transgender women using shared spaces. Don't know where you get the majority?!

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/2020-07-16/Transgender%20attitudes%20summary-01.png

The majority of women and men don't want trans women in female changing rooms. Surely no man would tell women what to think or what they should accept