The Trans Rights Debate

***Ozyhibby*** · 18-03-2022 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

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So trans males are okay

Trans females in sports where testosterone levels and strength are less of an issue? Such as snooker, darts, equestrianism, motor sports maybe?

My point is I don't think you have a blanket ban on trans people in all elite sports. That would be TERFy

I think you make male sports ‘open’ but female sports only for athletes who grew up female.

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***Stairway 2 7*** · 18-03-2022 05:42 PM

Absolutely ridiculous that in a few decades many female athletic world record could be held by someone who was born a male. Why would the bafoons want to win them, they aren't stupid they know they have an advantage.

Of course they should be able to legally change sex Mary adopt whatever, but surely a few caveats is still a huge change from where we were.

The mma fights we've seen were sick, what's going through a trans person's head to smash someone born a female.

**Mcbizz1998** · 22-03-2022 10:14 PM

https://boysvswomen.com/#/

This is interesting (if all accurate).

***Moulin Yarns*** · 23-03-2022 07:08 AM

Originally Posted by Mcbizz1998

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https://boysvswomen.com/#/

This is interesting (if all accurate).

A bit disingenuous to call them boys, 18 years old!

***Stairway 2 7*** · 23-03-2022 08:03 AM

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

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A bit disingenuous to call them boys, 18 years old!

That's the age lia Thomas transitioned so shell always have a huge advantage, what age do most transition. She went from an average male swimmer to the best college female. She needs a shake how can she feel good winning with such a natural advantage. The other girls on the podium all stood together in protest

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***Moulin Yarns*** · 23-03-2022 08:16 AM

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

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That's the age lia Thomas transitioned so shell always have a huge advantage, what age do most transition. She went from an average male swimmer to the best college female. She needs a shake how can she feel good winning with such a natural advantage. The other girls on the podium all stood together in protest

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The man I know who is clearly not an athlete is 30 and about to have upper body surgery to 'reduce' his body.

***Stairway 2 7*** · 23-03-2022 08:28 AM

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

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The man I know who is clearly not an athlete is 30 and about to have upper body surgery to 'reduce' his body.

And good luck to him. A friend at work is having the same at a disgusting unfair price. I welcome every law available to them being changed, marriage adoption passport whatever. But... the caveat of sport should be preserved to be fair on people born females. Men have enough, let them have their records.

Things have come such a long way for trans people in 20 years, it's great. Life is unfair sometimes, surely they can live without competing in female sports. I've got over the fact I'll never make the 200 metres at the Olympics as I'm slow as ****, life is unfair

***CropleyWasGod*** · 23-03-2022 08:52 AM

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

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That's the age lia Thomas transitioned so shell always have a huge advantage, what age do most transition. She went from an average male swimmer to the best college female. She needs a shake how can she feel good winning with such a natural advantage. The other girls on the podium all stood together in protest

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It wasn't a protest.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSL2N2VP1XH

The woman who came second has her say.

An Olympic silver medalist who lost to Lia Thomas at NCAA Championships said she's 'proud to support trans athletes' https://www.businessinsider.in/sports/news/an-olympic-silver-medalist-who-lost-to-lia-thomas-at-ncaa-championships-said-shes-proud-to-support-trans-athletes/articleshow/90313958.cms?utm_source=social_sticky_amp&utm_medi um=social_sharing&utm_campaign=Click_through_socia l_share

***Stairway 2 7*** · 23-03-2022 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

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It wasn't a protest.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSL2N2VP1XH

The woman who came second has her say.

An Olympic silver medalist who lost to Lia Thomas at NCAA Championships said she's 'proud to support trans athletes' https://www.businessinsider.in/sports/news/an-olympic-silver-medalist-who-lost-to-lia-thomas-at-ncaa-championships-said-shes-proud-to-support-trans-athletes/articleshow/90313958.cms?utm_source=social_sticky_amp&utm_medi um=social_sharing&utm_campaign=Click_through_socia l_share

Other women who lost out had their say. One only if anonymity as there would be a backlash. The boos from the crowd were obvious and it distracts from the real issues. The few mma fights were further than this and I would say they were sick. Someone that has been a male beyond puberty has different muscle mass and bone density even after hormones. Have to be worped in the head to want to smash away at a woman with such an advantage, equally so to condone it

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/trans-athletes-steal-wins-from-biological-females-lia-thomas/

https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/lia-thomas-teammate-situation-is-unfair-and-ncaa-is-discriminating-against-cisgender-women-locker-room-discomfort/

**Mcbizz1998** · 23-03-2022 09:44 AM

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

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A bit disingenuous to call them boys, 18 years old!

Oh really - Where does it say that? Or did you find that out independently?

***Moulin Yarns*** · 23-03-2022 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by Mcbizz1998

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Oh really - Where does it say that? Or did you find that out independently?

American high school students are up to age 18. Not that difficult to find out.

My point is an 18 year old 'boy' will be physically stronger than a lot of women so that comparison is worthless.

***Stairway 2 7*** · 23-03-2022 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

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American high school students are up to age 18. Not that difficult to find out.

My point is an 18 year old 'boy' will be physically stronger than a lot of women so that comparison is worthless.

That's exactly what the point is, as most athletes that cross over are transitioning after they have this physical advantage

***Moulin Yarns*** · 23-03-2022 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

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That's exactly what the point is, as most athletes that cross over are transitioning after they have this physical advantage

I get that. I just wonder how many are changing purely for the reason to beat women at sports?

***Ozyhibby*** · 23-03-2022 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

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I get that. I just wonder how many are changing purely for the reason to beat women at sports?

That’s a real danger. The financial rewards of a successful sports career can create incentives that should not be there.

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***Moulin Yarns*** · 23-03-2022 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

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That’s a real danger. The financial rewards of a successful sports career can create incentives that should not be there.

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That's a whole different debate. Normal trans people are being mixed up with the different negatives being put forward because a lot of people think that they have ulterior motives.

**Mcbizz1998** · 23-03-2022 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

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American high school students are up to age 18. Not that difficult to find out.

My point is an 18 year old 'boy' will be physically stronger than a lot of women so that comparison is worthless.

Not sure what the snide comment was for? Was a genuine question and wasn’t meant as some kind of dig. Even if I’d known that, how do you know some of these boys aren’t 17?

Anyway, don’t think the comparison is worthless at all. These are 18 year olds competing in 1 country (USA) and are able to beat the best Olympic female athletes from across the world at every single athletics event. And not just 1 or 2, the vast majority of these young men out perform the Olympic level females, before they have even reached their physical peak.

Pretty good comparison and shows why biological men competing against females is not fair.

***Moulin Yarns*** · 23-03-2022 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by Mcbizz1998

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Not sure what the snide comment was for? Was a genuine question and wasn’t meant as some kind of dig. Even if I’d known that, how do you know some of these boys aren’t 17?

Anyway, don’t think the comparison is worthless at all. These are 18 year olds competing in 1 country (USA) and are able to beat the best Olympic female athletes from across the world at every single athletics event. And not just 1 or 2, the vast majority of these young men out perform the Olympic level females, before they have even reached their physical peak.

Pretty good comparison and shows why biological men competing against females is not fair.

You do realise I agree. But it's not related to the trans debate. Unless you can give numbers of men wanting to change sex just so they can compete against women. A bit drastic action if you ask me.

***Stairway 2 7*** · 23-03-2022 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

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You do realise I agree. But it's not related to the trans debate. Unless you can give numbers of men wanting to change sex just so they can compete against women. A bit drastic action if you ask me.

It is related because its front and back pages of papers. It's making it harder for the vast vast majority of trans who just want to live a normal life. It shouldn’t be able to be brought into the argument but it is and could not be

***Ozyhibby*** · 23-03-2022 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

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That's a whole different debate. Normal trans people are being mixed up with the different negatives being put forward because a lot of people think that they have ulterior motives.

I agree. If we can take the sport issue out the equation we can start supporting trans people the way any society should. I can’t think of any other impediment to them living their life as they wish.

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**Mcbizz1998** · 23-03-2022 06:22 PM

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

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You do realise I agree. But it's not related to the trans debate. Unless you can give numbers of men wanting to change sex just so they can compete against women. A bit drastic action if you ask me.

Ok maybe I stepped into the wrong debate. I presumed that part of “the trans rights debate”, as this thread is called, would include whether or not biological men should be allowed to compete in womens sports.

If that’s not part of this debate then very well….

**He's here!** · 23-03-2022 08:00 PM

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

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That's a whole different debate. Normal trans people are being mixed up with the different negatives being put forward because a lot of people think that they have ulterior motives.

I'd agree it's a different argument to the core isdues addressed in this thread. However, it's an element of the debate that has potentially far reaching repercussions (ie the end of women's sport as a meaningful entity).

***Moulin Yarns*** · 23-03-2022 08:56 PM

Originally Posted by He's here!

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I'd agree it's a different argument to the core isdues addressed in this thread. However, it's an element of the debate that has potentially far reaching repercussions (ie the end of women's sport as a meaningful entity).

As this is really only beginning to become an issue in sports I would like to think the sports governing bodies will look at the implications and act appropriately.

**He's here!** · 24-03-2022 10:43 PM

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/...0f51b0ec755179

***Keith_M*** · 27-03-2022 08:58 AM

Did you know that Jakey Rolling is a regional sport in the parks of Glasgow, especially the hilly ones?

***Ozyhibby*** · 27-03-2022 11:17 AM

https://alexmassie.substack.com/p/th...ce=twitter&s=r

Good article on trans rights as it relates to sport. Massie is a good writer, it’s a shame he’s found his niche in the lucrative SNP bad market.

Quick question, does the SG’s GRA make any mention of elite sport?

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***CropleyWasGod*** · 27-03-2022 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

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https://alexmassie.substack.com/p/th...ce=twitter&s=r

Good article on trans rights as it relates to sport. Massie is a good writer, it’s a shame he’s found his niche in the lucrative SNP bad market.

Quick question, does the SG’s GRA make any mention of elite sport?

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It doesn't AFAIK

IMO, it shouldn’t. As has been mentioned, it should be up to each sport to come to their own conclusion.

***Ozyhibby*** · 27-03-2022 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

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It doesn't AFAIK

IMO, it shouldn’t. As has been mentioned, it should be up to each sport to come to their own conclusion.

Good, then I’m happy enough to support it.

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***Stairway 2 7*** · 27-03-2022 07:51 PM

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

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https://alexmassie.substack.com/p/th...ce=twitter&s=r

Good article on trans rights as it relates to sport. Massie is a good writer, it’s a shame he’s found his niche in the lucrative SNP bad market.

Quick question, does the SG’s GRA make any mention of elite sport?

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Just read it, great article