The Trans Rights Debate

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/robdunsmore/stat...166438915?s=21

This is amazing. Hope this guy gets a job on BT2.


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[He's here!]

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https://twitter.com/adhib/status/1501223986038034439


Interesting thread…

A lot to wade through there on a Saturday morning but much to agree with.

[He's here!]

https://news.sky.com/story/jk-rowlin...women-12564477

[Mr Grieves]

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https://news.sky.com/story/jk-rowlin...women-12564477

The author then said: "I don't think our politicians have the slightest idea how much anger is building among women from all walks of life at the attempts to threaten and intimidate them out of speaking publicly about their own rights, their own bodies and their own lives.

"Among the thousands of letters and emails I've received are disillusioned members of Labour, the Greens, the Lib Dems and the SNP. Women are scared, outraged and angry at the deaf ear turned to their well-founded concerns. But women are organising."

When you read that you'd think the vast majority of women have similar views to JK Rowling but recent polling suggests otherwise

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc...d-60214574.amp

[Stairway 2 7]

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When you read that you'd think the vast majority of women have similar views to JK Rowling but recent polling suggests otherwise

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc...d-60214574.amp

In that poll most
don't want to decrease the time a person must live in acquired gender
don't want to reduce age to 16
Don't want people to use toilets until after surgery
Oppose hormone blockers to children
Opposed children living as a different gender at school without parents permission.

On the actual decision if they can self identify full stop it 40 for 38 against

Seems Scotland is more old fashioned than i though

[Moulin Yarns]

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When you read that you'd think the vast majority of women have similar views to JK Rowling but recent polling suggests otherwise

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc...d-60214574.amp

63% of women agree that it should be made easier to get a GRC. Rowling does not speak for all women but gets a lot of air time.

[LewysGot2]

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When you read that you'd think the vast majority of women have similar views to JK Rowling but recent polling suggests otherwise

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc...d-60214574.amp

The response to these kind of polls from women varies greatly with whether they believe it to mean male bodied people who have had surgery or whether they remain fully intact male bodied. If its the former there are more positive responses but when it is framed as the latter the responses change and women respond far less favourably.

The debate has stayed in Twitter land and the wider general public are not really up to speed. It's also very polarised.


I was speaking to a friend concerned about teenagers who are vulnerable being able to undergo serious medical intervention that they may well live to regret because they are struggling with the reality of puberty and are looking for answers to how they feel. They asked what would we do if an anorexic teen said they were unhappy with their body - would we affirm those feelings like we are told affirming those who believe they are born in the wrong body?

Would we say, on you go, starve yourself?

They questioned why then puberty blockers, breast binders, top surgery etc is acceptable. Yesterday was detransition awareness day. The accounts I read from detransitioned young adults were very sad. Such a very complex but serious issue

[He's here!]

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The response to these kind of polls from women varies greatly with whether they believe it to mean male bodied people who have had surgery or whether they remain fully intact male bodied. If its the former there are more positive responses but when it is framed as the latter the responses change and women respond far less favourably.

It's also unrelated to the concerns Rowling so correctly raises. She's not anti-trans, a point those who vilify her tend to miss.

[Ozyhibby]

This is such a niche issue I doubt it moves more than a handful of votes either way in any election.
And like any issue in Scotland, the only reason it’s getting amplified is because the two Indy parties are promoting it so the unionists have decided to oppose it. And you can see that even on this thread. It’s quite sad really as it is a complex issue for a tiny amount of people and they don’t really need it being weaponised in the Indy debate.
It’s like Celtic and Sevco fans waiting to see which side of any conflict the other set of fans are about to take so that they can oppose them.


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[500miles]

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63% of women agree that it should be made easier to get a GRC. Rowling does not speak for all women but gets a lot of air time.

Further down the article it shows that there's very little agreement on what that means.

There are financial costs, for example, which I believe should be removed entirely once the patient and doctors have approved transition.

We have no definitive idea of what it means to be trans, and the there will be plenty of general support for trans people
as vulnerable and discriminated against minorities, followed with "oh, im not sure you should be able to do THAT" when discussing what rights we think trans people should have.

[He's here!]

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This is such a niche issue I doubt it moves more than a handful of votes either way in any election.
And like any issue in Scotland, the only reason it’s getting amplified is because the two Indy parties are promoting it so the unionists have decided to oppose it. And you can see that even on this thread. It’s quite sad really as it is a complex issue for a tiny amount of people and they don’t really need it being weaponised in the Indy debate.
It’s like Celtic and Sevco fans waiting to see which side of any conflict the other set of fans are about to take so that they can oppose them.


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A piece of legislation which has the potential to impact on the vast majority of women in Scotland is hardly a niche issue. Women's rights have been (and continue to be) extremely hard won and many are right to air their concerns at the tone deaf approach of the Scottish Government.

How this impacts on voting intentions is a minor detail. And it certainly bears no comparison to the Old Firm rivalry.

[LewysGot2]

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This is such a niche issue I doubt it moves more than a handful of votes either way in any election.
And like any issue in Scotland, the only reason it’s getting amplified is because the two Indy parties are promoting it so the unionists have decided to oppose it. And you can see that even on this thread. It’s quite sad really as it is a complex issue for a tiny amount of people and they don’t really need it being weaponised in the Indy debate.
It’s like Celtic and Sevco fans waiting to see which side of any conflict the other set of fans are about to take so that they can oppose them.


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It's only the Tories uncomfortable with it.

It's not a "unionist" battle line.

[Moulin Yarns]

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A piece of legislation which has the potential to impact on the vast majority of women in Scotland is hardly a niche issue. Women's rights have been (and continue to be) extremely hard won and many are right to air their concerns at the tone deaf approach of the Scottish Government.

How this impacts on voting intentions is a minor detail. And it certainly bears no comparison to the Old Firm rivalry.

As the survey says, it isn't going to impact women. They are the most supportive, in the survey!!

[LewysGot2]

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Further down the article it shows that there's very little agreement on what that means.

There are financial costs, for example, which I believe should be removed entirely once the patient and doctors have approved transition.

We have no definitive idea of what it means to be trans, and the there will be plenty of general support for trans people
as vulnerable and discriminated against minorities, followed with "oh, im not sure you should be able to do THAT" when discussing what rights we think trans people should have.

Nobody ever mentions AGP males in this equation either. They are part of the subtleties of the debate and concerns of some,in addition to this removing the ability of women (and children) to simply challenge who might be in a single sex places.


The impact of Queer Theory on the gay community is not being being discussed either. It's no coincidence so many of the most vocal resistance is from gay women (and many gay men).

[Moulin Yarns]

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Nobody ever mentions AGP males in this equation either. They are part of the subtleties of the debate and concerns of some,in addition to this removing the ability of women (and children) to simply challenge who might be in a single sex places.


The impact of Queer Theory on the gay community is not being being discussed either. It's no coincidence so many of the most vocal resistance is from gay women (and many gay men).

Totally confused!!

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...eviews-to-date

[LewysGot2]

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Totally confused!!

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...eviews-to-date

Not aerosol generating processes 🤣👍

Autogynephilia.

Males who get their kicks at dressing in stereotypical female clothes, make up etc and accessing female only spaces- a fetish. They don't physically transition and have no intention of doing so. The sexual thrill is what they're seeking.

Mind you, most M to F trans people keep their tackle, too.

[Moulin Yarns]

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Not aerosol generating processes 🤣👍

Autogynephilia.

Males who get their kicks at dressing in stereotypical female clothes, make up etc and accessing female only spaces- a fetish. They don't physically transition and have no intention of doing so. The sexual thrill is what they're seeking.

Mind you, most M to F trans people keep their tackle, too.

So, transvestities!!! Why didn't you say?!

Would love to know what your evidence for the last bit is.

[LewysGot2]

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So, transvestities!!! Why didn't you say?!

Would love to know what your evidence for the last bit is.

Because AGP is the proper term for it?

From Gender Identity Research and Education Service research in the UK….

“In 2016, a meta-analysis of 27 studies estimated a rate of approx 10 per 100,000 of the population (0.01%) have a transgender diagnosis and/or surgical or hormonal treatment. In contrast 355 per 100,000 of the population(0.35%) self-identity as transgender. This means only 2.8% of the transgender community is undergoing any gender-affirming treatment with the vast majority 97.2% simply self-identity with no modifications to their sexed body whatsoever”.

Also

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5875299/


a fairly recent paper on it from the US….


There’s very consistent published information about it. Maybe big pharma would like that to change…$$$$

[One Day Soon]

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This is such a niche issue I doubt it moves more than a handful of votes either way in any election. And like any issue in Scotland, the only reason it’s getting amplified is because the two Indy parties are promoting it so the unionists have decided to oppose it. And you can see that even on this thread. It’s quite sad really as it is a complex issue for a tiny amount of people and they don’t really need it being weaponised in the Indy debate. It’s like Celtic and Sevco fans waiting to see which side of any conflict the other set of fans are about to take so that they can oppose them. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's a pretty grotesque distortion. The range of women concerned about the potential impact upon women's rights comes from almost all parts of the political spectrum. I'm struggling to think of many other issues in Scotland that do this. Those women may be right or wrong but dismissing them as only pretending to be concerned for other constitutional purposes is just unfair.

[LewysGot2]

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That's a pretty grotesque distortion. The range of women concerned about the potential impact upon women's rights comes from almost all parts of the political spectrum. I'm struggling to think of many other issues in Scotland that do this. Those women may be right or wrong but dismissing them as only pretending to be concerned for other constitutional purposes is just unfair.

It's definitely a cross party thing. Or, to be honest,
Just an ordinary females thing. Some key people like Cherry and Dalgetty are political animals but its definitely NOT SNP and Greens v The Union.

[He's here!]

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That's a pretty grotesque distortion. The range of women concerned about the potential impact upon women's rights comes from almost all parts of the political spectrum. I'm struggling to think of many other issues in Scotland that do this. Those women may be right or wrong but dismissing them as only pretending to be concerned for other constitutional purposes is just unfair.

A good point.

[superfurryhibby]

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That's a pretty grotesque distortion. The range of women concerned about the potential impact upon women's rights comes from almost all parts of the political spectrum. I'm struggling to think of many other issues in Scotland that do this. Those women may be right or wrong but dismissing them as only pretending to be concerned for other constitutional purposes is just unfair.

It's not only women who are concerned about this legislation and the impact on women's rights. However, you are completely correct in saying that the concerns aren't linked to people's stance on constitutional issues.

[He's here!]

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It's not only women who are concerned about this legislation and the impact on women's rights. However, you are completely correct in saying that the concerns aren't linked to people's stance on constitutional issues.

Also a good point, although it is they who stand to be most impacted by it so the high profile presence of groups like For Women Scotland is understandable.

[James310]

I wonder how Emma Weyant who came second feels?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/swimming/60792875

[CropleyWasGod]

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I wonder how Emma Weyant who came second feels?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/swimming/60792875

This might help

https://www.newsweek.com/emma-weyant...s-ncaa-1689362

[Ozyhibby]

When it comes to elite sport, I agree that trans competitors should not be allowed to compete. Even with all the hormone therapy, a trans competitor who grew up male has the benefit of all the muscle growth pre their transition. A male aged 16-20 can build muscle that is impossible for females to match.

Not sure the GRA addresses the sports issue?


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[CropleyWasGod]

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When it comes to elite sport, I agree that trans competitors should not be allowed to compete. Even with all the hormone therapy, a trans competitor who grew up male has the benefit of all the muscle growth pre their transition. A male aged 16-20 can build muscle that is impossible for females to match.

Not sure the GRA addresses the sports issue?


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Would you exclude trans males?

[500miles]

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Would you exclude trans males?

Not an issue if mens sport becomes an open category.

[Ozyhibby]

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Would you exclude trans males?

I would think it very unlikely that it will become an issue. I can’t think of many sports where someone who grew up a female could compete with males at an elite level.


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[CropleyWasGod]

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I would think it very unlikely that it will become an issue. I can’t think of many sports where someone who grew up a female could compete with males at an elite level.


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So trans males are okay

Trans females in sports where testosterone levels and strength are less of an issue? Such as snooker, darts, equestrianism, motor sports maybe?

My point is I don't think you have a blanket ban on trans people in all elite sports. That would be TERFy