The Trans Rights Debate

[He's here!]

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The Bill is being tabled in Parliament today.

It seems that only the Tories, as a party, are against reforms.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...itics-60589578

They're not 'against' reform. They believe, however, that women's rights should be paramount when considering such changes. A view shared by many.

The highest profile split over this issue is within the SNP.

[WeeRussell]

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They're not 'against' reform. They believe, however, that women's rights should be paramount when considering such changes. A view shared by many.

The highest profile split over this issue is within the SNP.

Isn’t “against reform” pretty much a literal translation of conservatism?

[matty_f]

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Yes, women deal with lots of unnecessary crap, but it’s still not equating to a daily battle to keep safe or hellish experience, which was my point to begin with. TBF, you did, eventually, acknowledge that that statement was unhelpful hyperbole.

Earlier, I made the point that it’s not only women who have a stake in voicing an opinion on the trans rights- gender self identification question. Men are invested in this too, yet the main voices in the debate seem very polarised and to come mostly from women or men that self identify as women. Why is that that?

I also said that ultra feminist dogma ( is it really necessary to launch a hand grenade castigating and scapegoating all men when discussing the erosion of women’s rights through the proposed legislation?) is divisive. My belief is that these kind of views aren’t necessarily representative of women in general ( or even feminists in general).

So, now that we all agree that women can still be subject to male harassment, casual misogyny, discrimination in the work place, bullying in the home, can we move on to why we are having a legislative based approach to promoting gender self-identification from the Scottish government? I would also be interested to hear people’s views on why there are so few male voices being heard in the debate?

There are so few male voices being heard in the debate (ironic, given that(I suspect) this thread is almost exclusively male voices) because biological males are not having their rights and perceived safety impacted in the same way that biological females are.

If a trans-man wants to compete in sport, they are not gaining an advantage over biological men. It’s very unlikely (though not impossible, admittedly) that a trans-man is a threat to other men in terms of sexual violence or sexual misbehaviour and so on.

Because of the issues discussed in this thread already, there’s significantly less impact (virtually none) on men when a woman wants to transition to a man - if they self identify as a man and want to use male-only spaces, what’s the risk to the men there already?

It’s why the challenges are driven by women worried about their rights and why men are the less heard voices.

[JeMeSouviens]

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They're not 'against' reform. They believe, however, that women's rights should be paramount when considering such changes. A view shared by many.

The highest profile split over this issue is within the SNP.

Did the splitters not leave to join (that well known defender of womens' rights ) Salmond?

[He's here!]

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Did the splitters not leave to join (that well known defender of womens' rights ) Salmond?

Not aware that those who joined Alba did so over this issue? The highest profile SNP figure to go against the party line was Joanna Cherry. I was never a fan of hers but the abuse she took (often from within her own party) over her stance was outrageous and took a toll on her health.

[Moulin Yarns]

For anyone still questioning the need to change the law.


https://news.stv.tv/opinion/this-is-...self-id-scheme

[Ozyhibby]

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For anyone still questioning the need to change the law.


https://news.stv.tv/opinion/this-is-...self-id-scheme

While this issue is a big deal for a tiny amount of people, it does seem strange that those against it think that it’s implementation in Scotland will be disastrous in a way that it’s not in Ireland? Do they think Scots trans people are different in some way?


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[500miles]

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While this issue is a big deal for a tiny amount of people, it does seem strange that those against it think that it’s implementation in Scotland will be disastrous in a way that it’s not in Ireland? Do they think Scots trans people are different in some way?


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I've been convinced that the GRA isn't really the issue.

I do have an issue with us institutionalising gender and innate and separate from sex. The same way as I have with us institutionalising creationism, Christian science or any other ideas which conflict with identifiable, measurable reality.

I've noticed that council emails from cis people have thier pronouns in the signature. This should not be the default, its like me starting all my emails with "Shalom".

[matty_f]

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For anyone still questioning the need to change the law.


https://news.stv.tv/opinion/this-is-...self-id-scheme

That’s a good article.

I find the situation to be very complex, and I’m still not entirely sure where i sit with it.

On a very basic level, I support trans-rights, I have no skin in the game as to dictating to others how they should live their lives, and there’s definitely a need to protect and include the trans community.

Where those rights impact the rights of others - particularly women - is where I find it harder to legitimise a blanket approach, but i’m well aware that if you take the position of “a trans man/woman is a man/woman” (delete as appropriate) then they have the exact same rights as a biological man/woman, which has the potential to cause issues, as we’ve seen in sport and in some sensitive sex-based situations.

I consider myself to be a tolerant guy, I believe people should have the right to live as they want so long as it’s not at the expense of others. I don’t care if someone’s gay, bi, straight, trans, whatever - they’re people. The main thing i’m getting from this discussion is a better understanding of the issues, which is a good thing.

[James310]

https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/statu...6-N4-X0bA&s=19

JK Rowling has her say.

[500miles]

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https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/statu...6-N4-X0bA&s=19

JK Rowling has her say.

Looking forward to the weirdly sexual death threats on twitter from shan haircuts and furries.

[Hibrandenburg]

https://www.iflscience.com/brain/bor...young-age/all/

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[LewysGot2]

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https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/statu...6-N4-X0bA&s=19

JK Rowling has her say.

Think it was a response to a very personal article by Susan Dalgetty. I tried to link it but it wouldn't play ball

[James310]

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Think it was a response to a very personal article by Susan Dalgetty. I tried to link it but it wouldn't play ball

Yes it was, this one.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinio...algety-3596504

[Moulin Yarns]

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https://www.iflscience.com/brain/bor...young-age/all/

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Thanks for the link. Makes sense.

[Hibrandenburg]

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Thanks for the link. Makes sense.

Science will eventually prove that gender isn't simply that what does or doesn't dangle between our legs.

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[LewysGot2]

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Science will eventually prove that gender isn't simply that what does or doesn't dangle between our legs.

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It isn't that now?

That's your sex?

[He's here!]

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Think it was a response to a very personal article by Susan Dalgetty. I tried to link it but it wouldn't play ball

I read the Dalgety piece you mention. As you say extremely personal. Underlines why this issue is so much more meaningful than many believe and that the likes of the FM seem unable to grasp its implications. Good, measured support from Rowling (as ever), though as someone else has pointed out she'll doubtless take a deluge of flak for it.

[Moulin Yarns]

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I read the Dalgety piece you mention. As you say extremely personal. Underlines why this issue is so much more meaningful than many believe and that the likes of the FM seem unable to grasp its implications. Good, measured support from Rowling (as ever), though as someone else has pointed out she'll doubtless take a deluge of flak for it.

I saw no support for the trans rights from Rowling in that tweet from her!!!

[CropleyWasGod]

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Science will eventually prove that gender isn't simply that what does or doesn't dangle between our legs.

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It's taken society thousands of years to understand that sexuality isn't just about sex, so we might have to wait a while.😏

[Hibrandenburg]

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It isn't that now?

That's your sex?

That's certainly my personal opinion. But when science conclusively proves that gender is more than a binary status, then maybe we can all have a grown-up conversation on the subject. I probably shouldn't hold my breath though, just look at the climate discussion for example.

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[Hibrandenburg]

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It's taken society thousands of years to understand that sexuality isn't just about sex, so we might have to wait a while.

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[He's here!]

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I saw no support for the trans rights from Rowling in that tweet from her!!!

That was my point. She's commenting on Susan Dalgety's article which is highlighting the fears many women rightly harbour around this over-hasty legislation.

[LewysGot2]

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That's certainly my personal opinion. But when science conclusively proves that gender is more than a binary status, then maybe we can all have a grown-up conversation on the subject. I probably shouldn't hold my breath though, just look at the climate discussion for example.

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Gender is a social construct often presenting itself in fairly stereotypical fashion. Lots of progress about people being able to be gender non-conforming seems to be getting lost in all this. It should still be okay for wee girls to be tomboys without having to be any more than that, for example.
I read with interest the comment about sexuality not being about sex. This is one issue that it appears has caused concern in the gay community. Can I ask what is meant?

Is this reference to such as Eddie Izzard being able to say he is a lesbian when he is in "woman gender"? ie its same gender attraction not same sex? Or something else?

I know a couple for gay friends who don't subscribe to same gender attraction ideas and are genuinely upset by it

[CropleyWasGod]

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Gender is a social construct often presenting itself in fairly stereotypical fashion. Lots of progress about people being able to be gender non-conforming seems to be getting lost in all this. It should still be okay for wee girls to be tomboys without having to be any more than that, for example.
I read with interest the comment about sexuality not being about sex. This is one issue that it appears has caused concern in the gay community. Can I ask what is meant?

Is this reference to such as Eddie Izzard being able to say he is a lesbian when he is in "woman gender"? ie its same gender attraction not same sex? Or something else?

I know a couple for gay friends who don't subscribe to same gender attraction ideas and are genuinely upset by it

What I meant is that society has, for thousands of years, conflated sexuality with the sexual act. Criminalisation of gay men, for example, has usually focused on sodomy. That was illegal for all men in Scotland only 40 years ago.

Sexuality is not just about the sexual act. It's about love, companionship, emotional support, sexual behaviour.... and all the other things that one associates with one's own definition of relationship.

[500miles]

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https://www.iflscience.com/brain/bor...young-age/all/

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I read that article when Graham Linehan was having his breakdown. If I remember correctly, it was a very small study group and there were issues with control groups, blind testing and a particular issue among the research team regarding the plasticity of the brain during normal development.

Essentially, the challenging opinion was that the test groups had overlapping results, falling within the expected range of neuroplasticity.

In hindsight, it was the sort of research we need to be wary of after the stuff we on Facebook during covid.

[Hibrandenburg]

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I read that article when Graham Linehan was having his breakdown. If I remember correctly, it was a very small study group and there were issues with control groups, blind testing and a particular issue among the research team regarding the plasticity of the brain during normal development.

Essentially, the challenging opinion was that the test groups had overlapping results, falling within the expected range of neuroplasticity.

In hindsight, it was the sort of research we need to be wary of after the stuff we on Facebook during covid.

Nobody is claiming this is irrefutable evidence that there's a biological spectrum of gender, but the more studies that are carried out and with advances is medical science I'm sure we'll find it.

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[Moulin Yarns]

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That was my point. She's commenting on Susan Dalgety's article which is highlighting the fears many women rightly harbour around this over-hasty legislation.

Are you saying that trans people don't have rights too?

[Moulin Yarns]

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That was my point. She's commenting on Susan Dalgety's article which is highlighting the fears many women rightly harbour around this over-hasty legislation.

I should add, the Republic of Ireland already has this legislation in place with no problems!!!

[CropleyWasGod]

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I should add, the Republic of Ireland already has this legislation in place with no problems!!!

Wanted to make a point about that piece.

Whilst it's a great lesson to us, what surprised me was the low number affected, less than 900? I wonder if the influence of the Church has discouraged many from transition.