#WomenWontWheesht

[CapitalGreen]

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I don’t see how not. But are homosexuals not a ‘different’ group to bisexuals in any case?

You’ve helped make my point for me. Some bisexuals would identify themselves as homosexuals while some wouldn’t and some would accept them as identifying as homosexuals while some wouldn’t.

[WeeRussell]

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You’ve helped make my point for me. Some bisexuals would identify themselves as homosexuals while some wouldn’t and some would accept them as identifying as homosexuals while some wouldn’t.

Ah.. I’m not sure if I simply managed to miss your point first time round or if I was just questioning it 😂 (it’s been a long day)

What you’re saying does make sense - but is that something that happens quite a bit (e.g. a homosexual person defending their identity as such by refusing to accept a bisexual person as the same) as opposed to just a bit of grey area over the naming? I always imagine the vast majority of the gay community being very accepting of each other in that respect but maybe I’m being naive (I guess some may argue that their identity as a homosexual is very important to them as a person and they don’t accept a bisexual person calling his or herself a homosexual).

I’m slavering now and definitely out of my depth in terms of knowledge on the subject so will call it a night there 😁

[He's here!]

Common sense prevails (eventually):

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/s...ared-qcggvm2c8

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57426579

[500miles]

There seems to be a concerted effort on the far side of either arguement to treat gender and sex as the same.

I think reconciliation can be found if we accept gender as a spectrum, a sincerely held belief in the same way we protect religion. On the other hand, we must hold sex as scientific reality, binary, where intersex conditions are outliers which exist on either side of that binary.

Homophobes are looking for a new home now that homophobia is so unpopular, and a complex issue like this provides very convenient cover. On the other hand, dysphoria is extremely painful and the ability to convince yourself that biological sex binary is a myth must be pretty soothing.

Both sides have prominent online weirdos. The usual gammon faced right wing on one side and furry weirdos who tweet hardcore anime p0rn on the other. It's so easy to find someone to hate and fear.

[CropleyWasGod]

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There seems to be a concerted effort on the far side of either arguement to treat gender and sex as the same.

I think reconciliation can be found if we accept gender as a spectrum, a sincerely held belief in the same way we protect religion. On the other hand, we must hold sex as scientific reality, binary, where intersex conditions are outliers which exist on either side of that binary.

Homophobes are looking for a new home now that homophobia is so unpopular, and a complex issue like this provides very convenient cover. On the other hand, dysphoria is extremely painful and the ability to convince yourself that biological sex binary is a myth must be pretty soothing.

Both sides have prominent online weirdos. The usual gammon faced right wing on one side and furry weirdos who tweet hardcore anime p0rn on the other. It's so easy to find someone to hate and fear.

Spectrum is an important concept in understanding the issues
Again, there's parallels with the LGB debate. Sexuality is a spectrum, and that's a useful starting point for those who want to get some insight.

[lapsedhibee]

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There seems to be a concerted effort on the far side of either arguement to treat gender and sex as the same.

I think reconciliation can be found if we accept gender as a spectrum, a sincerely held belief in the same way we protect religion. On the other hand, we must hold sex as scientific reality, binary, where intersex conditions are outliers which exist on either side of that binary.

Homophobes are looking for a new home now that homophobia is so unpopular, and a complex issue like this provides very convenient cover. On the other hand, dysphoria is extremely painful and the ability to convince yourself that biological sex binary is a myth must be pretty soothing.

Both sides have prominent online weirdos. The usual gammon faced right wing on one side and furry weirdos who tweet hardcore anime p0rn on the other. It's so easy to find someone to hate and fear.

Don't think you can have both 'sex is binary' and 'intersex exists'. Like writing computer code with the occasional ½ thrown in.

[500miles]

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Don't think you can have both 'sex is binary' and 'intersex exists'. Like writing computer code with the occasional ½ thrown in.

Intersex conditions only exist in relation to male or females. For example, you don't get females with Klinefelter syndrome,because it only affects males, or males with Turner's syndrome as it only affects females. As someone who has had to discuss these issues relating to fertility, I've not come across a doctor or any literature that says different.

[Moulin Yarns]

I'm currently watching a programme called Dispatches from elsewhere on Prime. The star is eve Lindley, a trans actor, she is very talented.

[JeMeSouviens]

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Don't think you can have both 'sex is binary' and 'intersex exists'. Like writing computer code with the occasional ½ thrown in.

Floating point?

On your first sentence, I think the clarification would be to consider sex binary for everyone (the vast majority) born with either of the 2 "normal" sex chromosome pairs: XY or XX. Then intersex exists, but only for the tiny minority with a different layout: X, XXY, etc.

[lapsedhibee]

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Floating point?

On your first sentence, I think the clarification would be to consider sex binary for everyone (the vast majority) born with either of the 2 "normal" sex chromosome pairs: XY or XX. Then intersex exists, but only for the tiny minority with a different layout: X, XXY, etc.

It only needs one black swan to exist to make 'All swans are white' false. So if one person with a different layout exists, 'All people are laid out either XX or XY' is false. I suppose it's a personal preference, but I like CWG's spectrum chat better.

If I understand it right, floating point doesn't exist in the computers herself, only in the heids of computer users, so I'll probably stick with the ½ point.

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Intersex conditions only exist in relation to male or females. For example, you don't get females with Klinefelter syndrome,because it only affects males, or males with Turner's syndrome as it only affects females. As someone who has had to discuss these issues relating to fertility, I've not come across a doctor or any literature that says different.

Would another way of looking at this be that you don't get females with Klinefelter syndrome because Klinefelter syndrome is the name given to a variation from a traditionally 'male' pattern/layout, and you don't get males with Turner's because Turner's is the name given to a variation from a traditionally 'female' pattern/layout?

Declaration: I have no interest whatsoever in gaining access to women's toilets.

[JeMeSouviens]

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It only needs one black swan to exist to make 'All swans are white' false. So if one person with a different layout exists, 'All people are laid out either XX or XY' is false. I suppose it's a personal preference, but I like CWG's spectrum chat better.

If I understand it right, floating point doesn't exist in the computers herself, only in the heids of computer users, so I'll probably stick with the ½ point.



Would another way of looking at this be that you don't get females with Klinefelter syndrome because Klinefelter syndrome is the name given to a variation from a traditionally 'male' pattern/layout, and you don't get males with Turner's because Turner's is the name given to a variation from a traditionally 'female' pattern/layout?

Declaration: I have no interest whatsoever in gaining access to women's toilets.

CWG's spectrum was for sexuality, not sex. I'm fine with that. I think "intersex" is a specific term referring to people who's chromosome layout is non-standard and, as such, should be reserved for them specifically. I don't have a problem with those of a "normal" layout considering themselves wherever they like on a gender spectrum, but they shouldn't use the term "intersex".

[CropleyWasGod]

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CWG's spectrum was for sexuality, not sex. I'm fine with that. I think "intersex" is a specific term referring to people who's chromosome layout is non-standard and, as such, should be reserved for them specifically. I don't have a problem with those of a "normal" layout considering themselves wherever they like on a gender spectrum, but they shouldn't use the term "intersex".

This is the NHS' definition of "intersex".

Of course, it's not simple,

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/differ...x-development/

[JeMeSouviens]

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This is the NHS' definition of "intersex".

Of course, it's not simple,

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/differ...x-development/

Ok, so I was too specific. But ...

Differences in sex development (DSD) is a group of rare conditions involving genes, hormones and reproductive organs, including genitals. It means a person's sex development is different to most other people's.

Sometimes the term Disorders of Sex Development is used, as is Variations in Sex Characteristics (VSC) or Diverse Sex Development. Some adults and young people with DSD prefer to use the term intersex.

... I still think we should only use "intersex" to apply to someone with one of these identifiable rare conditions, not to people who are more biologically "standard" but have a fluid or non-binary gender.

[500miles]

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It only needs one black swan to exist to make 'All swans are white' false. So if one person with a different layout exists, 'All people are laid out either XX or XY' is false. I suppose it's a personal preference, but I like CWG's spectrum chat better.

If I understand it right, floating point doesn't exist in the computers herself, only in the heids of computer users, so I'll probably stick with the ½ point.



Would another way of looking at this be that you don't get females with Klinefelter syndrome because Klinefelter syndrome is the name given to a variation from a traditionally 'male' pattern/layout, and you don't get males with Turner's because Turner's is the name given to a variation from a traditionally 'female' pattern/layout?

Declaration: I have no interest whatsoever in gaining access to women's toilets.

Are you suggesting that Turner's and Klinefelter's sufferers should be treated as thier own sexes? I mean they still have sexual development in line with thier observed sex, just with reduced functionality. And again, we're looking conditions which are pretty rare, hence why I've referred to them as outliers rather than a spectrum, despite the fact that I'm entirely open to the idea of a gender spectrum.

[Keith_M]

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Are you suggesting that Turner's and Klinefelter's sufferers should be treated as thier own sexes? I mean they still have sexual development in line with thier observed sex, just with reduced functionality. And again, we're looking conditions which are pretty rare, hence why I've referred to them as outliers rather than a spectrum, despite the fact that I'm entirely open to the idea of a gender spectrum.

The number of people that are not easily identified as Male or Female by their physical characteristics is miniscule, so are they just outliers rather than a 'spectrum'?

[Moulin Yarns]

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The number of people that are not easily identified as Male or Female by their physical characteristics is miniscule, so are they just outliers rather than a spectrum?

I suppose if you compare eddie izzard with eve Lindley you will see a difference. 😉

Or phillipa York?!

[Keith_M]

On a related note, I read an article by a Guardian Journalist last week about how upset she was that some of her friends criticised her for Gender views that are (in their opinion) not quite 'on message' (presumably ultra-woke).

She thought this was very unfair and that people should be entitled to their point of view, and of 'freedom of speech'.

By an amazing coincidence The Observer, The Guardian's sister paper, had an editorial on Sunday expressing pretty much the same point of view.



Call me cynical but the same people have for years now criticized others for for not being 100% on-message, and demanding the right to Freedom of Speech, but are only now outraged because for once they are the ones on the receiving end.



Pardon me for engaging in a bit of Schadenfreude

[Keith_M]

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I suppose if you compare eddie izzard with eve Lindley you will see a difference. 😉

Or phillipa York?!

If it's OK, I'd rather not, thanks

[lapsedhibee]

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Are you suggesting that Turner's and Klinefelter's sufferers should be treated as thier own sexes? I mean they still have sexual development in line with thier observed sex, just with reduced functionality. And again, we're looking conditions which are pretty rare, hence why I've referred to them as outliers rather than a spectrum, despite the fact that I'm entirely open to the idea of a gender spectrum.

Not really, no. It's just that the existence of variations from more common patterns, some of them with recognisable labels and some maybe so far without, seem to me to render the 'you're either a male or a female, one or the other, no ifs no buts' position fairly unhelpful (not suggesting that's your position btw). Klinefelter and Turner are long-established variations, but I'd never heard of Mayer-Rokitansky-Küster-Hauser syndrome before seeing CWG's linked article, and I'm thinking that there'll be more labels for more variations as time passes and more genetic delving gets done. At the moment I'm guessing that intersex people's lives are more difficult than they should/need to be because of a general perception that they're not properly one state or the other.

[500miles]

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The number of people that are not easily identified as Male or Female by their physical characteristics is miniscule, so are they just outliers rather than a 'spectrum'?

Are you taking about gender expression or sex here?

[Keith_M]

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Are you taking about gender expression or sex here?

As you've blatantly avoided answering my question, I'll leave it to you to decide what I meant.

[500miles]

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As you've blatantly avoided answering my question, I'll leave it to you to decide what I meant.

Thanks, that was really helpful. What a contribution. Did it maybe occur to you that I was asking so I could actually give you a proper answer?

[Keith_M]

Trans Gender Woman wins Miss Nevada Beauty Pageant

https://www.wionews.com/entertainmen...pageant-394957

[Keith_M]

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Thanks, that was really helpful. What a contribution. Did it maybe occur to you that I was asking so I could actually give you a proper answer?

Sorry, I was being a bit ar5ey.


Please accept my apologies.

[He's here!]

https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,m...ail-signatures

This is something that seems to be becoming increasingly prevalent. Anyone on here use a pronoun with their email signature, or know anyone who does?

[CropleyWasGod]

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https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,m...ail-signatures

This is something that seems to be becoming increasingly prevalent. Anyone on here use a pronoun with their email signature, or know anyone who does?

I don't, but know many who do.

Personally, I find it useful.

[1 8 7 5]

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https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,m...ail-signatures

This is something that seems to be becoming increasingly prevalent. Anyone on here use a pronoun with their email signature, or know anyone who does?

In my part of the NHS, quite a few people are using it. Most aren't, as there is probably more pressing things going on in their work day.... no-body appears offended by it, so thats positive.

[Future17]

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https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,m...ail-signatures

This is something that seems to be becoming increasingly prevalent. Anyone on here use a pronoun with their email signature, or know anyone who does?

The headline states "Majority of Scottish Government civil servants say they'll never add pronouns to their email signatures" but that wasn't even an option on the poll. Makes you wonder what the headline writer's motivation was.

[JeMeSouviens]

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https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,m...ail-signatures

This is something that seems to be becoming increasingly prevalent. Anyone on here use a pronoun with their email signature, or know anyone who does?

I don't but I have seen some that do and I think that's quite helpful. I think if they are unspecified it's ok to default to the traditional and know it won't offend.

I do wonder why the need to specify both "he/him", "she/her" etc. though. I mean do the pairings ever get mixed? I'd like "he/them" if you don't mind?