Celtc complain about Sectarian Abuse outside Ibrox

[hibbysam]

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Let's be honest, most of these 'Peepul' have no idea what any of those things are, let alone could explain them.

This is all about an inbuilt hatred of the opposing group based on how they see the situation in Northern Ireland... and how much they want to re-create that here.

The Roman Catholic church was a threat to Protestantism, when it viewed them as heretics and carried out large scale murders across Europe to eradicate that specific 'disease'. However, that was a long time ago and various religious hierarchies have since been forced to accept the existence of other religions.

It really is time that both sides stopped living in the past.

Listened to this weeks open goal podcast that Barry Ferguson was on and he was talking about times walking down the street in Glasgow and getting religious abuse shouted across the street at him. It really is a blight on society that because someone is a footballer that you can hurtle all sorts of obscenities in the street towards them. Race, religion, nationality shouldn’t matter in any walk of life.

[superfurryhibby]

Would anyone be in favour of banning Orange marches in Scotland?

[Sir David Gray]

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Would anyone be in favour of banning Orange marches in Scotland?

By living in a democratic country we have to accept that we will encounter things which we consider to be objectionable or indeed even offensive.

I think banning things like this will only cause the fringe elements of the Orange Order to become even more extreme. I believe people should have the right to freedom of expression, as long as that stays within the law and whilst I think it's sad that we still have this happening in Scotland in the 21st century, I do not think there are grounds to ban the actual marches themselves.

Some of the events at these marches however are problematic such as the deliberate provocation outside Roman Catholic churches and the misbehaviour relating to that should be dealt with appropriately.

[superfurryhibby]

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By living in a democratic country we have to accept that we will encounter things which we consider to be objectionable or indeed even offensive.

I think banning things like this will only cause the fringe elements of the Orange Order to become even more extreme. I believe people should have the right to freedom of expression, as long as that stays within the law and whilst I think it's sad that we still have this happening in Scotland in the 21st century, I do not think there are grounds to ban the actual marches themselves.

Some of the events at these marches however are problematic such as the deliberate provocation outside Roman Catholic churches and the misbehaviour relating to that should be dealt with appropriately.

If the Orange Lodge was substituted for a group dedicated to the destruction of Islam or Judaism, would freedom of expression still apply?

[Sir David Gray]

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If the Orange Lodge was substituted for a group dedicated to the destruction of Islam or Judaism, would freedom of expression still apply?

Any group dedicated to the destruction of others should not be allowed.

[superfurryhibby]

EIGHT MEN WERE ARRESTED on Saturday in Glasgow for sectarian offences after an Orange Order parade of a few hundred persons took place in the city.
https://randompublicjournal.com/2019...-orange-order/



On the same day somewhere in the region of ten thousand independence supporters marched through the town of Ayr without a single incident. Without fail, whenever and wherever they happen, Orange marches result in heightened tensions, binge drinking, and chauvinistic anti-Catholic hate speech, and violence. Any passing observer would be tempted to think there is something about this quasi-military showband organisation that creates this obnoxious mayhem, but every year spokesmen for the Order are wheeled out by the unionist media to deny its sectarianism and extol its virtues as a loyal institution for the celebration of Ulster Protestant culture.

Yet, we feel that we can’t ban these marches – that we can’t ban the organisation – because to do this would be illiberal, it wouldn’t be tolerant. Rubbish! If the Orange Order insisted on marching through the more affluent streets of Glasgow, insisting that they too were “the Queen’s highway,” they would have been banned decades ago. If their songs and their open hostility were directed against Jews or people of colour instead of Catholics, the government would have no option but to ban the organisation. So, why is this not the case when they are marching down working-class streets and abusing Catholics? Not only this, but why have local councils in Scotland been giving the Orange Order public funds? Just imagine if Tower Hamlets borough council in London gave £1,500 of taxpayers’ money to the BNP to support an anti-immigrant rally. There would be an outcry. But that’s not what happens in Scotland. It’s not what happens in the north of Ireland.

It is not intolerance to ban intolerant organisations and events. We do it all the time. This is why we don’t have an openly neo-Nazi fascist party. It is why hate preachers are silenced and refused entry into the country. It is why online paedophile rings are shut down and their members prosecuted. The intolerant and the intolerable are banned all the time without us becoming an intolerant society.

[ancient hibee]

The unionist media? Are you saying that those against independence are in favour of anti catholicism?

[Keith_M]

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Would anyone be in favour of banning Orange marches in Scotland?

Yes, absolutely. I feel the same about the Irish Republican marches. My feelings toward these people is pretty much the same as how I feel about Far Right, Neo Nazi and White Power marches.

However, I can't imagine any government ever banning them.

What I think they could, and should, do is restrict the number of marches in Scotland, even if it's just on the grounds of the ridiculous cost.

[CMurdoch]

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I think you are underestimating the continuing extent of sectarianism in wider society.

Places like West Lothian, Lanarkshire, Fife etc, etc. There are still plenty of active Orange Lodges, people go on marches and all the usual ****.

I worked in West Lothian for many years. There was a sitting MP , Tom Devine (I think he was called) who was deeply involved in the Orange Lodge. Local Councillors, like the bam from Whitburn ( I won't name him), giving me a Masonic handshake on meeting him. Later involved in contract scandal issues and favouring those with the same beliefs during tendering processes.

Institutions like the Police, the Judiciary and Politics. How well represented are Catholics in public life and in the establishment hierarchy?

Things have changed, but sectarianism remains as a issue out side of football.

I just think you give all this stuff too much space in your head.
I live in Edinburgh so banjo players in West Lothian and Lanarkshire etc don't mean anything to me.

I know about 10 retired Edinburgh cops who are season ticket holders at Easter Road. I have had brief conversations with them over the years about stuff like Orange Walks, The James Connolly March etc. They saw them both as attention seeking pains in the arse who shouldn't be allowed to march in Edinburgh. As for the masons they said there were a few Edinburgh cops in the masons and their colleagues ripped the piss out of them for it at every opportunity. Certainly said nothing about their careers being affected by their religion.

Humans are always scheming for power, influence, position and money and I always thought folk who joined the masons were schemers. I think they join in the hope of improving their career prospects by networking, getting help from other members etc. Either that or it's another way to avoid their wives. All seems pretty tedious to me. The organisation maybe has loftier ambitions but I suspect the members just want to use it for their own betterment.

[Hibernia&Alba]

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Would anyone be in favour of banning Orange marches in Scotland?

No. Freedom of expression must be protected, even if it's unpleasant. I would only ban marches which incite violence and would prefer to err on the side of protecting civil liberties. Clearly, the Orange marches are not merely an innocent form of worship, practiced by devout God-fearing Christians. For some involved, and certainly many of the spectators, they provide an opportunity to antagonise and intimidate: 'this is our country'. That said, I could not support a blanket ban, as I don't believe that Orange marches meet the threshold required in terms of fomenting violence. A possible consequence of banning them would be to martyr them and make them victims, which could be counterproductive.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Would anyone be in favour of banning Orange marches in Scotland?

No.

It would smack of Thatcher's attempts to deny Sinn Fein "the oxygen of publicity". That merely made a nonsense out of things, and arguably gave them even more publicity.

[Keith_M]

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No.

It would smack of Thatcher's attempts to deny Sinn Fein "the oxygen of publicity". That merely made a nonsense out of things, and arguably gave them even more publicity.

What about restricting the location of their marches to empty fields in Lanarkshire?

[The Harp Awakes]

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EIGHT MEN WERE ARRESTED on Saturday in Glasgow for sectarian offences after an Orange Order parade of a few hundred persons took place in the city.
https://randompublicjournal.com/2019...-orange-order/



On the same day somewhere in the region of ten thousand independence supporters marched through the town of Ayr without a single incident. Without fail, whenever and wherever they happen, Orange marches result in heightened tensions, binge drinking, and chauvinistic anti-Catholic hate speech, and violence. Any passing observer would be tempted to think there is something about this quasi-military showband organisation that creates this obnoxious mayhem, but every year spokesmen for the Order are wheeled out by the unionist media to deny its sectarianism and extol its virtues as a loyal institution for the celebration of Ulster Protestant culture.

Yet, we feel that we can’t ban these marches – that we can’t ban the organisation – because to do this would be illiberal, it wouldn’t be tolerant. Rubbish! If the Orange Order insisted on marching through the more affluent streets of Glasgow, insisting that they too were “the Queen’s highway,” they would have been banned decades ago. If their songs and their open hostility were directed against Jews or people of colour instead of Catholics, the government would have no option but to ban the organisation. So, why is this not the case when they are marching down working-class streets and abusing Catholics? Not only this, but why have local councils in Scotland been giving the Orange Order public funds? Just imagine if Tower Hamlets borough council in London gave £1,500 of taxpayers’ money to the BNP to support an anti-immigrant rally. There would be an outcry. But that’s not what happens in Scotland. It’s not what happens in the north of Ireland.

It is not intolerance to ban intolerant organisations and events. We do it all the time. This is why we don’t have an openly neo-Nazi fascist party. It is why hate preachers are silenced and refused entry into the country. It is why online paedophile rings are shut down and their members prosecuted. The intolerant and the intolerable are banned all the time without us becoming an intolerant society.

Good post and agree with all of your points.

The only thing I'd add is that the Westminster Government aren't exactly in a good place to act independently on sectarian related matters. They continue to uphold The Act of Settlement which openly discriminates against Catholics. Probably one of the most racist pieces of Government legislation which exists in the 'free' world.

[Sir David Gray]

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No. Freedom of expression must be protected, even if it's unpleasant. I would only ban marches which incite violence and would prefer to err on the side of protecting civil liberties. Clearly, the Orange marches are not merely an innocent form of worship, practiced by devout God-fearing Christians. For some involved, and certainly many of the spectators, they provide an opportunity to antagonise and intimidate: 'this is our country'. That said, I could not support a blanket ban, as I don't believe that Orange marches meet the threshold required in terms of fomenting violence. A possible consequence of banning them would be to martyr them and make them victims, which could be counterproductive.

Agreed.

[gbhibby]

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No. Freedom of expression must be protected, even if it's unpleasant. I would only ban marches which incite violence and would prefer to err on the side of protecting civil liberties. Clearly, the Orange marches are not merely an innocent form of worship, practiced by devout God-fearing Christians. For some involved, and certainly many of the spectators, they provide an opportunity to antagonise and intimidate: 'this is our country'. That said, I could not support a blanket ban, as I don't believe that Orange marches meet the threshold required in terms of fomenting violence. A possible consequence of banning them would be to martyr them and make them victims, which could be counterproductive.

I was going for a paper in the main street of Tranent one Saturday only to be met by the hoards of mobile orangmen who were marching. There were 5 bus loads of them including their entourage many of the entourage were women. Overheard them saying this was the first of four marches they were taking part in that day they were going to west lothian after Tranent. Police were in attendance. I thought do they pay for the policing of these events. Let them march but only through Larkhall don't want them anywhere near me.

[Lendo]

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I was going for a paper in the main street of Tranent one Saturday only to be met by the hoards of mobile orangmen who were marching. There were 5 bus loads of them including their entourage many of the entourage were women. Overheard them saying this was the first of four marches they were taking part in that day they were going to west lothian after Tranent. Police were in attendance. I thought do they pay for the policing of these events. Let them march but only through Larkhall don't want them anywhere near me.

I’ve never fully understood the Orange Marches links/connects with Tranent and Prestonpans. Anyone know?

[Keith_M]

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I’ve never fully understood the Orange Marches links/connects with Tranent and Prestonpans. Anyone know?

Don't know about Tranent but a lot of Miners moved through from the West of Scotland in the early part of the last century and moved to Prestonpans.

At one point, 'The Pans' was quite divided between Catholic and Protestant and is one of the few places I know of in East Lothian and Midlothian to still have an Orange Lodge

[gbhibby]

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Don't know about Tranent but a lot of Miners moved through from the West of Scotland in the early part of the last century and moved to Prestonpans.

At one point, 'The Pans' was quite divided between Catholic and Protestant and is one of the few places I know of in East Lothian and Midlothian to still have an Orange Lodge

Apparently there is a Lodge in Tranent

[Keith_M]

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Apparently there is a Lodge in Tranent

You learn something new every day

[Peevemor]

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Don't know about Tranent but a lot of Miners moved through from the West of Scotland in the early part of the last century and moved to Prestonpans.

At one point, 'The Pans' was quite divided between Catholic and Protestant and is one of the few places I know of in East Lothian and Midlothian to still have an Orange Lodge

Was there not always aggro between top Pans & bottom Pans as well (not to mention the Panners & the Tanners).

These bams will fight about anything.

[Yorkshire HFC]

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Was there not always aggro between top Pans & bottom Pans as well (not to mention the Panners & the Tanners).

These bams will fight about anything.

What a depressing thread.

[Since90+2]

To me it's always seemed as though Rangers have a genuine issue with religious sectarianism and a good proportion (but not all by any means) of their fans are anti Catholic whereas Celtic seems to be less about religion more anti Britishness/pro Irish republicanism.

Neither is welcome in Scottish football but I do think there is a clear distinction between the two.

[Peevemor]

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What a depressing thread.

I'm no sociologist but it seems to be human nature. Some people are drawn to it more than others, and in some cases there are people pulling strings to their own ends, but we've been tribal and found reasons to fight since before records began.

[The Count]

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What about restricting the location of their marches to empty fields in Lanarkshire?

Talking of empty fields i used to know i guy who lived opposite a field in Bathgate designated for a new Catholic school.He was woken up one morning by an Orange Lodge Band marching up a down a knee length grass field playing there tunes.

[Jones28]

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Would anyone be in favour of banning Orange marches in Scotland?

I don't want them banned. My own observation is that the last time I saw an Orange walk it was when I lived in Airth, the band was the main body of the march and the people partaking were all older and 90% male.

I want them to keep going until the only people left are these guys when theyre in their 80's, shuffling through the streets of small-town Central Scotland with people shutting their doors and curtains.

[The Harp Awakes]

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I don't want them banned. My own observation is that the last time I saw an Orange walk it was when I lived in Airth, the band was the main body of the march and the people partaking were all older and 90% male.

I want them to keep going until the only people left are these guys when theyre in their 80's, shuffling through the streets of small-town Central Scotland with people shutting their doors and curtains.

I can see the arguments for and against banning orange marches.

What worries me more is the local authorities approach to these marches and also the policing of them. The Pans march, along with many other marches, are deliberately routed to pass by Catholic churches. In the case of the Pans one they walk past the chapel in Newbigging, Musselburgh on the Saturday morning, do all stuff they do during the day, and then return to march past the chapel again 6-7 p.m. on the Saturday evening. The timing of their return coincides with evening mass in the chapel at which point the march has been witnessed to halt and up their volume.

How East Lothian council and the police agree to this clear intimidation is concerning.

[easty]

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I can see the arguments for and against banning orange marches.

What worries me more is the local authorities approach to these marches and also the policing of them. The Pans march, along with many other marches, are deliberately routed to pass by Catholic churches. In the case of the Pans one they walk past the chapel in Newbigging, Musselburgh on the Saturday morning, do all stuff they do during the day, and then return to march past the chapel again 6-7 p.m. on the Saturday evening. The timing of their return coincides with evening mass in the chapel at which point the march has been witnessed to halt and up their volume.

How East Lothian council and the police agree to this clear intimidation is concerning.

To be fair, it’s probably what Jesus wanted, and that’s the whole point of the march...right?

[The Harp Awakes]

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To be fair, it’s probably what Jesus wanted, and that’s the whole point of the march...right?

Sorry mate, totally lost me there.

[gbhibby]

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Was there not always aggro between top Pans & bottom Pans as well (not to mention the Panners & the Tanners).

These bams will fight about anything.

This thread is about sectarianism so what is your point caller.

[Peevemor]

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This thread is about sectarianism so what is your point caller.

Sorry. I'll check with you what I can post in future.