Another grooming gang uncovered.

[lord bunberry]

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The problem is that these horrendous crimes absolutely have been used as a strategic rallying point by racists who want to use them to engender a reactionary hatred of Pakistanis and eventually to introduce a twisted agenda of racial purity. Therefore when they're brought up here there is always going to be at least an initial wariness as to why?

The other reason for few replies is that there's, on the face of it, very little to discuss. Everybody would agree there should be no reluctance to investigate and no reluctance to hammer anyone found guilty.

I agree completely with your first paragraph, there will always be people who will try and twist things to suit their own racist agenda. I’d like to think that the vast majority of people would ignore these idiots.

[TheHibernator]

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I'll tell you what is worrying me. The way every male of Pakistan origin is being tarred with the same brush. How long before there is a vigilante group set up targeting Pakistani men?

Grooming is something that happens in every community, it could even be your neighbours. So this whole "predominantly Pakistani men" is a smoke screen IMO.

You can dismiss the facts and deflect all you want, but it's the kind of attitude that only adds to the problem.

I said Pakistani men make up a disproportionate amount of grooming gangs in this country, how can you disagree with that?

[TheHibernator]

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No I never, what I said was "Predominantly men of Pakistani descent", which is factually correct whichever way you want to dress it up. There's a discussion to be had here but if you keep dismissing the facts then this will only detract from that. I'm actually really trying to choose my words very carefully and I shouldn't have to. I know I'm not a racist but I'm starting to feel a very slight hint in your posts of you suggesting that I and anyone else who sees the pattern here are, that is exactly why the Police and services didn't do their job properly in the first place.

Bang on.

[Smartie]

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You can dismiss the facts and deflect all you want, but it's the kind of attitude that only adds to the problem.

I said Pakistani men make up a disproportionate amount of grooming gangs in this country, how can you disagree with that?

Do we have statistics or figures upon which to base our opinions regarding “grooming gangs”?

I don’t even really know what a grooming gang is.

Given the majority of the noise on this subject seems to come from the likes of Tommy Robinson and Katie Hopkins and the right wing gutter press rather than anyone remotely credible, I can’t pretend to hold an opinion either way.

I hope that anyone who commits any offence is caught and convicted as is appropriate.

[Cataplana]

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The OP clearly blamed Pakistani for Grooming gangs.

Nonsense, it's almost as if you are trying to deflect from the real points being made here.

For me, the word "predominantly" in the origin post is very important. You appear to be blind to that.

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Do we have statistics or figures upon which to base our opinions regarding “grooming gangs”?

I don’t even really know what a grooming gang is.

Given the majority of the noise on this subject seems to come from the likes of Tommy Robinson and Katie Hopkins and the right wing gutter press rather than anyone remotely credible, I can’t pretend to hold an opinion either way.

I hope that anyone who commits any offence is caught and convicted as is appropriate.

I don't think that's entirely fair. Coverage I have seen has involved a wide range of people. I am sure the two people you mention will make capital out of it, but that doesn't make the basic facts any different.

Not to admit to a pattern of this particular form of abuse is only playing into their hands. What is wrong is to say it is the only form of abuse, or that all Pakistani men are abusers.

It's the same thing as saying all Catholic men are abusers, because a small amount of priests were abusing children.

[Smartie]

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Nonsense, it's almost as if you are trying to deflect from the real points being made here.

For me, the word "predominantly" in the origin post is very important. You appear to be blind to that.



I don't think that's entirely fair. Coverage I have seen has involved a wide range of people. I am sure the two people you mention will make capital out of it, but that doesn't make the basic facts any different.

Not to admit to a pattern of this particular form of abuse is only playing into their hands. What is wrong is to say it is the only form of abuse, or that all Pakistani men are abusers.

It's the same thing as saying all Catholic men are abusers, because a small amount of priests were abusing children.

Nothing, if that indeed is the case.

Are we talking about men specifically from the nation for Pakistan here? Is there something about men who are from that one one country who commit offences like this?

Or are we talking about muslims in general?

Either generalisation is acceptable if it has some foundation in truth.

Or are we just talking about brown-skinned people that we don't like very much and would like to chuck as much dirt as possible at, a bit like the way "paedo" has become a common playground insult in football grounds?

I have no more desire than anyone to see anyone who exploits children in a sexual way go unpunished, whether that is because they cannot be properly investigated due to police political correctness or because they're being sheltered by the Catholic Church or the royal family.

My work has taken me into contact with many Asian people, may people from Pakistan and many muslims. Purely in my experience I am at a loss to explain why these offences happen or that there may be a cultural issue. The most I hear about it is on the likes of Facebook from racist nuggets sharing stuff from the likes of Robinson and Hopkins. I'm not saying there isn't a problem or can't be one, but simply that I've not been overly impressed by the sources putting forward the argument so far.

[Cataplana]

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Nothing, if that indeed is the case.

Are we talking about men specifically form the nation for Pakistan here? Is there something about men who are from that one one country who commit offences like this?

Or are we talking about muslims in general?

Either generalisation is acceptable if it has some foundation in truth.

Or are we just talking about brown-skinned people that we don't like very much and would like to chuck as much dirt as possible at, a bit like the way "paedo" has become a common playground insult in football grounds?

I have no more desire than anyone to see anyone who exploits children in a sexual way go unpunished, whether that is because they cannot be properly investigated due to police political correctness or because they're being sheltered by the Catholic Church or the royal family.

My work has taken me into contact with many Asian people, may people from Pakistan and many muslims. Purely in my experience I am at a loss to explain why these offences happen or that there may be a cultural issue. The most I hear about it is on the likes of Facebook from racist nuggets sharing stuff from the likes of Robinson and Hopkins. I'm not saying there isn't a problem or can't be one, but simply that I've not been overly impressed by the sources putting forward the argument so far.

Moulin Yarns posted an interesting Guardian article, on this thread. It says it is not possible to establish cultural reasons for groups of men, predominantly of Pakistani origin bring involved in grooming gangs.

It seems beyond dispute that there is a disproportionate number of men from a similar background committing these offences. What is more difficult to establish is why.

Attempts by some to ignore what is plain to see are only providing ammunition to the likes of Hopkins and Robinson. IMO things like that play right into the downtrodden white people mindset.

People constantly say they are ignored. Usually there is a good reason - they are talking pants. However, when they have concrete evidence of what they see as others getting away with what they wouldn't, it doubles their grievance.

We have to acknowledge that these crimes were covered up for some reason. It is essential that we establish what that reason was, learn, and move on.

[Moulin Yarns]

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Moulin Yarns posted an interesting Guardian article, on this thread. It says it is not possible to establish cultural reasons for groups of men, predominantly of Pakistani origin bring involved in grooming gangs.

It seems beyond dispute that there is a disproportionate number of men from a similar background committing these offences. What is more difficult to establish is why.

Attempts by some to ignore what is plain to see are only providing ammunition to the likes of Hopkins and Robinson. IMO things like that play right into the downtrodden white people mindset.

People constantly say they are ignored. Usually there is a good reason - they are talking pants. However, when they have concrete evidence of what they see as others getting away with what they wouldn't, it doubles their grievance.

We have to acknowledge that these crimes were covered up for some reason. It is essential that we establish what that reason was, learn, and move on.

Nowhere in the Guardian article does it use the description 'Pakistani' It refers to Asian or Muslim, which is why I am unhappy with the way this thread is blaming one nationality over all others.

The Independent article about Child sex exploitation in Newcastle does mention nationalities both as perpetrators and victims.

Of eight victims covered in the trials, six were white and two were of African heritage, while the perpetrators came from a diverse range of backgrounds including Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Indian, Iranian, Iraqi, Kurdish, Turkish, Albanian and Eastern European.

A judge concluded that the defendants "selected their victims not because of their race, but because they were young, impressionable, naive, and vulnerable”, including young girls and women with learning difficulties and mental health issues.

The review said that while perpetrators’ individual beliefs are not known, they “all appear to come from a non-white, predominantly Asian/British minority ethnic culture or background” – as in Rotherham, Rochdale and Oxfordshire, while a grooming gang in Bristol were from a Somali background.

[Cataplana]

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Nowhere in the Guardian article does it use the description 'Pakistani' It refers to Asian or Muslim, which is why I am unhappy with the way this thread is blaming one nationality over all others.

The Independent article about Child sex exploitation in Newcastle does mention nationalities both as perpetrators and victims.

I hear what you are saying. Many of the perps in question, will actually be British. It does appear to be something that those of Pakistani descent are disproportionately represented.

[Moulin Yarns]

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I hear what you are saying. Many of the perps in question, will actually be British. It does appear to be something that those of Pakistani descent are disproportionately represented.

So you, and others, keep saying without providing any evidence.

Let's be clear, anyone found to be involved in the exploitation of girls deserves to be brought to court, regardless of their ethnicity, but this unwarranted hounding of one nationality is frankly rubbish. I almost said racist,but we can't have that now, can we.

[Cataplana]

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So you, and others, keep saying without providing any evidence.

Let's be clear, anyone found to be involved in the exploitation of girls deserves to be brought to court, regardless of their ethnicity, but this unwarranted hounding of one nationality is frankly rubbish. I almost said racist,but we can't have that now, can we.

There have been repeated cases of men from a particular ethnic background being involved in grooming gangs. Your desperation not to see that is completely disrespectful to the victims.

The evidence stems from victim testimony and from whistle blowers who were ignored and worse. However, it seems there are still some who are getting the wrong end of the stick, and accusing anybody who points this out of being a racist.

[Moulin Yarns]

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There have been repeated cases of men from a particular ethnic background being involved in grooming gangs. Your desperation not to see that is completely disrespectful to the victims.

The evidence stems from victim testimony and from whistle blowers who were ignored and worse. However, it seems there are still some who are getting the wrong end of the stick, and accusing anybody who points this out of being a racist.

At least the article I quoted provides evidence that there are more nationalities than Pakistani men involved.

The fact that some are trying to single out a single nationality is the smokescreen as far as I'm concerned.

[Smartie]

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There have been repeated cases of men from a particular ethnic background being involved in grooming gangs. Your desperation not to see that is completely disrespectful to the victims.

The evidence stems from victim testimony and from whistle blowers who were ignored and worse. However, it seems there are still some who are getting the wrong end of the stick, and accusing anybody who points this out of being a racist.

What background though?

The nation of Pakistan?

The faith of Islam?

Groups made up of immigrants of various nationalities and faiths?


Are there other social aspects involved - poverty (on behalf of victims or perpetrators) or social class? Education levels?

I'm not saying there isn't a problem, I'm not saying there isn't a "cultural aspect" - there might be - but solid evidence of that is thin on the ground as far as I can see.

Personally, I would be astonished if political correctness stopped police from adequately investigating child abuse of any nature, although I accept that this has been put forward by some and is worthy of conversation and investigation.


As far as I can see, what we mainly have are a lot of racist people who have racist beliefs looking for evidence to justify their own beliefs rather than forming their opinions based on evidence, which so far appears to be thin on the ground.

I should also add that I am not accusing anyone who has contributed to this thread of being in any way racist - as nobody has been - and the subject is certainly worthy of debate. Please just be careful of being drawn in by the propaganda of the racist and the ignorant and forming opinions about nationalities, faiths and groups of people based on flimsy evidence because even though not racist you run the risk of being labelled as one by being taken in by weak argument.

This has consequences. The more we build barriers amongst ourselves, the more we alienate members of society, the more likely they are to become the people that you are scared of them being.

[matty_f]

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There have been repeated cases of men from a particular ethnic background being involved in grooming gangs. Your desperation not to see that is completely disrespectful to the victims.

The evidence stems from victim testimony and from whistle blowers who were ignored and worse. However, it seems there are still some who are getting the wrong end of the stick, and accusing anybody who points this out of being a racist.

This post is out of order, IMHO - there is nothing whatsoever that is disrespectful to the victims in asking for evidence or stats to back up statements that are being made.

In fact, it's a perfectly sensible and rational starting point for the discussion.

[Andy Bee]

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This post is out of order, IMHO - there is nothing whatsoever that is disrespectful to the victims in asking for evidence or stats to back up statements that are being made.

In fact, it's a perfectly sensible and rational starting point for the discussion.

The problem being Matty that there isn't any stats because the authorities choose not to record ethnicity or religion, TBF why would they? There's plenty pics of men who have been convicted for the crime but it would be wrong to assume that they're all Pakistani muslims or British of pakistani descent.

Maajid Nawaz covered the topic on LBC but highlights more the fact that they're predominantly Pakistani Muslims or muslims of Pakistani descent

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presente...rooming-gangs/

[Hibrandenburg]

I'm guessing now but I'd guess that the vast majority of child abuse in the UK is carried out by white European males. They'll be uncles, cousins, fathers and people close to and in most cases it will be people with authority over the victims. It might be that Pakistani paedophiles have cornered the child grooming gang end of the paedophile market by using drugs and other bait to empower themselves over their victims, but you can be sure that these "gangs" are just a tiny minority in the evil scourge of child molestation. To single out Pakistani paedophiles as being somehow more depraved than our own homegrown beasts is not only nonsense but also racist. There, I've said it.

[Moulin Yarns]

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I'm guessing now but I'd guess that the vast majority of child abuse in the UK is carried out by white European males. They'll be uncles, cousins, fathers and people close to and in most cases it will be people with authority over the victims. It might be that Pakistani paedophiles have cornered the child grooming gang end of the paedophile market by using drugs and other bait to empower themselves over their victims, but you can be sure that these "gangs" are just a tiny minority in the evil scourge of child molestation. To single out Pakistani paedophiles as being somehow more depraved than our own homegrown beasts is not only nonsense but also racist. There, I've said it.

A little research goes a long way.

The true number of offences remains doubtful, generally assumed to be larger, due to expected unreported cases of child abuse. Some 90% of the sexually abused children were abused by people who they knew, and about one out of every three abused children did not tell anyone else about it. The vast majority of child sex offenders in England and Wales are male, with men representing 98% of all defendants in 2015/16, and white, with whites representing 85% of convicted child sex offenders and 86% of the general population in 2011. Asians represent 8% of the general population of England and Wales as of 2011. A 2011 analysis by the Child Exploitation and online Protection Command of 940 possible offenders reported for "street grooming and child sexual exploitation" found that 38% were white, 36% were Asian, while 32% were of an unknown ethnicity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_...United_Kingdom

Where offenders’ ethnicity was known, 81% of people convicted of sexual offences in 2014 were white, 7% were black and 9% were Asian in 2014. These proportions were similar over the previous four years.

https://fullfact.org/crime/what-do-w...inst-children/

Debunking the sweeping it under the carpet argument

http://www.irr.org.uk/news/asian-gro...the-far-right/

[JeMeSouviens]

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I'm guessing now but I'd guess that the vast majority of child abuse in the UK is carried out by white European males. They'll be uncles, cousins, fathers and people close to and in most cases it will be people with authority over the victims. It might be that Pakistani paedophiles have cornered the child grooming gang end of the paedophile market by using drugs and other bait to empower themselves over their victims, but you can be sure that these "gangs" are just a tiny minority in the evil scourge of child molestation. To single out Pakistani paedophiles as being somehow more depraved than our own homegrown beasts is not only nonsense but also racist. There, I've said it.

Spot on.

It is exactly the same phenomenon as the way the worst kind of bigoted Huns bang on about Jock Stein, Celtic Boys Club and the Catholic church. Zero concern or respect for the victims, just a propaganda opportunity.

[Cataplana]

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This post is out of order, IMHO - there is nothing whatsoever that is disrespectful to the victims in asking for evidence or stats to back up statements that are being made. In fact, it's a perfectly sensible and rational starting point for the discussion.

I apologise to MY.

I accept that no disrespect was intended.

I think the crux of this debate is whether there have been a number of cover ups of grooming by "Pakistani" gangs which have been covered up by the police and social services. It is not about whether Pakistanis are paedophiles or whether they are the biggest problem.

There have been several reports of cover ups of abuse of vulnerable children, by predominantly Pakistani males, I think it is fair to accept that this is an area of child protection that needs to be explored.

To consistently say that there is no evidence is wrong, as it has been pointed out on this thread several times that there is. It's not a good debate when people don't respond to evidence that is laid before them, and continue to say none exists.

If the evidence is pants, then say it's pants. Ignoring it just muddies the waters completely.

It's not very helpful when the counter argument contains thinly veiled suggestions that people asking why this has been happening have a racist agenda. When ethnicity is a common factor, there may well be areas to explore.

[Andy Bee]

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I'm guessing now but I'd guess that the vast majority of child abuse in the UK is carried out by white European males. They'll be uncles, cousins, fathers and people close to and in most cases it will be people with authority over the victims. It might be that Pakistani paedophiles have cornered the child grooming gang end of the paedophile market by using drugs and other bait to empower themselves over their victims, but you can be sure that these "gangs" are just a tiny minority in the evil scourge of child molestation. To single out Pakistani paedophiles as being somehow more depraved than our own homegrown beasts is not only nonsense but also racist. There, I've said it.

You're absolutely right, the majority of child sexual abuse in the UK is carried out by white males, the vast majority of males in the UK are white so that's to be expected but for this specific crime it's predominantly Pakistani or British Pakistani muslims and it's wrong and also doing the victims a disservice to say it's a "tiny minority" it's 1,000's of kids being abused, the same MO every time involving young white girls and Pakistani/British Pakistani muslims and it's happening in nearly if not all major cities and large towns in the UK, there's a pattern here.

I listened to a lady high up in child services who's spent years dealing with this explaining the process.

"The Hook, a young girl who's already been indoctrinated into the group is dropped off at places where young girls hangout, they're usually a couple of years older than the victim, they'll then befriend a prospective victim, hangout for an hour or so and then she'll mention her mate had arrived and was waiting in the car for them, usually a sporty car with blacked out windows, you've all seen them, parked up, young male playing the stereo loudly, they're in every city in the UK. The victim then follows on as she's just wanting to hangout with the older kids, they drive around for an hour or two with the victim getting fed soft drugs and alcohol. She's then asked if she wants to go to a party, assured by her new found friend that everything is good, they then arrive and find males from teenagers upto 50-60 yr olds and other victims and the abuse ensues, harder drugs are introduced and before long the victim then turns into another hook"

I've no problem with you thinking I'm racist, it's actually understandable, I'm too long in the tooth and comfortable in the fact to know that I'm not, it sadly tells me more about you than me. You simply can't read the above and disregard the fact that this is happening and there's a pattern. Not to mention the fact that this specific crime being committed is predominantly by a minority of Pakistani/British Pakistani muslim males on predominantly young white female kids is wrong and doing a disservice to the victims and TBF also the vast majority of good Pakistani muslim males that live their life within the confines of the law and contribute a lot to this society.

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A little research goes a long way.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_...United_Kingdom



https://fullfact.org/crime/what-do-w...inst-children/

Debunking the sweeping it under the carpet argument

http://www.irr.org.uk/news/asian-gro...the-far-right/

Debunking, debunking the sweeping it under the carpet arguement https://www.manchestereveningnews.co...oming-13027067

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Spot on.

It is exactly the same phenomenon as the way the worst kind of bigoted Huns bang on about Jock Stein, Celtic Boys Club and the Catholic church. Zero concern or respect for the victims, just a propaganda opportunity.

When you talk about zero respect for the victims, what would you call Police and Child Services sweeping this under the carpet because of fear of being labelled racist, the abuse carrying on for years when it didn't need to because of the same fear, exactly what's happening here.

[Cataplana]

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I'm guessing now but I'd guess that the vast majority of child abuse in the UK is carried out by white European males. They'll be uncles, cousins, fathers and people close to and in most cases it will be people with authority over the victims. It might be that Pakistani paedophiles have cornered the child grooming gang end of the paedophile market by using drugs and other bait to empower themselves over their victims, but you can be sure that these "gangs" are just a tiny minority in the evil scourge of child molestation. To single out Pakistani paedophiles as being somehow more depraved than our own homegrown beasts is not only nonsense but also racist. There, I've said it.

Who said anything about scales of depravity? Likewise nobody suggested that anybody had "cornered a market?"

I think the questions people are asking are within context, and have perspective. To call people racist, is much the same thing as accusing people who questioned abuse within the church anti Catholic.

In fact calling people racist was the first line of defence for these gangs, and fear of being labeled with that may have resulted in more kids being exploited.

What can we learn, and how do we prevent it happening again? What was it that made the police and social services ignore the girls complaints?

We need to know if there is an institutional fear of race, or class, that allows perpetrators a curtain to hide behind.

[Hibrandenburg]

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You're absolutely right, the majority of child sexual abuse in the UK is carried out by white males, the vast majority of males in the UK are white so that's to be expected but for this specific crime it's predominantly Pakistani or British Pakistani muslims and it's wrong and also doing the victims a disservice to say it's a "tiny minority" it's 1,000's of kids being abused, the same MO every time involving young white girls and Pakistani/British Pakistani muslims and it's happening in nearly if not all major cities and large towns in the UK, there's a pattern here.

I listened to a lady high up in child services who's spent years dealing with this explaining the process.

"The Hook, a young girl who's already been indoctrinated into the group is dropped off at places where young girls hangout, they're usually a couple of years older than the victim, they'll then befriend a prospective victim, hangout for an hour or so and then she'll mention her mate had arrived and was waiting in the car for them, usually a sporty car with blacked out windows, you've all seen them, parked up, young male playing the stereo loudly, they're in every city in the UK. The victim then follows on as she's just wanting to hangout with the older kids, they drive around for an hour or two with the victim getting fed soft drugs and alcohol. She's then asked if she wants to go to a party, assured by her new found friend that everything is good, they then arrive and find males from teenagers upto 50-60 yr olds and other victims and the abuse ensues, harder drugs are introduced and before long the victim then turns into another hook"

I've no problem with you thinking I'm racist, it's actually understandable, I'm too long in the tooth and comfortable in the fact to know that I'm not, it sadly tells me more about you than me. You simply can't read the above and disregard the fact that this is happening and there's a pattern. Not to mention the fact that this specific crime being committed is predominantly by a minority of Pakistani/British Pakistani muslim males on predominantly young white female kids is wrong and doing a disservice to the victims and TBF also the vast majority of good Pakistani muslim males that live their life within the confines of the law and contribute a lot to this society.


Debunking, debunking the sweeping it under the carpet arguement https://www.manchestereveningnews.co...oming-13027067



When you talk about zero respect for the victims, what would you call Police and Child Services sweeping this under the carpet because of fear of being labelled racist, the abuse carrying on for years when it didn't need to because of the same fear, exactly what's happening here.

You've still not explained why you would appear to find this particular method of child sex abuse worse than the much more prevalent kind. Why does the fact that it's mainly Pakistani men seem to bother you more than when dads, uncles, cousins and other men close to the victims is much more wide spread? We've had plenty of examples in the past where groups of white men have abused and passed around children amongst themselves, the Catholic Church, football clubs, scout groups, orphanages, the Westminster paedophile ring and countless other groups that I can remember off the top of my head and not to mention many thousand cases of individual predators, what makes these groups more distasteful to you than the others? The only difference I see is their race and method, the crimes themselves are the same.

[Hibrandenburg]

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Who said anything about scales of depravity? Likewise nobody suggested that anybody had "cornered a market?"

I think the questions people are asking are within context, and have perspective. To call people racist, is much the same thing as accusing people who questioned abuse within the church anti Catholic.

In fact calling people racist was the first line of defence for these gangs, and fear of being labeled with that may have resulted in more kids being exploited.

What can we learn, and how do we prevent it happening again? What was it that made the police and social services ignore the girls complaints?

We need to know if there is an institutional fear of race, or class, that allows perpetrators a curtain to hide behind.

I've no problem with any of that, but again, to think that child abuse is a Pakistani trait is ridiculous and racist.

[Hibrandenburg]

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A little research goes a long way.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_...United_Kingdom



https://fullfact.org/crime/what-do-w...inst-children/

Debunking the sweeping it under the carpet argument

http://www.irr.org.uk/news/asian-gro...the-far-right/

I don't have much time on my hands at the moment (skiing holiday) but I normally will research something before posting it. Tbf I was pretty certain about this anyway.

[Andy Bee]

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You've still not explained why you would appear to find this particular method of child sex abuse worse than the much more prevalent kind. Why does the fact that it's mainly Pakistani men seem to bother you more than when dads, uncles, cousins and other men close to the victims is much more wide spread? We've had plenty of examples in the past where groups of white men have abused and passed around children amongst themselves, the Catholic Church, football clubs, scout groups, orphanages, the Westminster paedophile ring and countless other groups that I can remember off the top of my head and not to mention many thousand cases of individual predators, what makes these groups more distasteful to you than the others? The only difference I see is their race and method, the crimes themselves are the same.

You've never asked me to explain why I seemingly "find this particular method of child sex abuse worse than the much more prevalent kind" is there a much more prevalent kind? TBH child abuse is abhorrent, are you suggesting otherwise to suit your agenda?

[Hibrandenburg]

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You've never asked me to explain why I seemingly "find this particular method of child sex abuse worse than the much more prevalent kind" is there a much more prevalent kind? TBH child abuse is abhorrent, are you suggesting otherwise to suit your agenda?

No I'm suggesting that all child abuse is abhorrent but can't quite fathom why anyone would think it's worse if it's carried out by Pakistani men.

What's my agenda?

[Cataplana]

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I've no problem with any of that, but again, to think that child abuse is a Pakistani trait is ridiculous and racist.

No cultural links have been established. However we have to get to the bottom of why these grooming gangs seemed to be above the law.

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I don't have much time on my hands at the moment (skiing holiday) but I normally will research something before posting it. Tbf I was pretty certain about this anyway.

In what way is ignoring what the girls were saying, and pulling resources from the enquiry not sweeping it under the carpet?

[Moulin Yarns]

Yes Pakistani men are disproportionately involved in grooming gangs and this particular model of abuse. And no that is not a racist statement. Neither is it racist to say that when it comes to wider child abuse nearly 90 per cent of those convicted and on the sex offenders register are white men.” Naz Shah MP,

Let’s be clear about “Pakistani” men – are we including the The Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, Sajid Javid, in this sweeping statement? Because he’s Pakistani. Or how about Sadiq Khan, the Mayor of London? The list goes on.

There is no community where men don’t rape girls and we must face up to it. Yes Pakistani men are disproportionately involved in grooming gangs and this particular model of abuse. And no that is not a racist statement. Neither is it racist to say that when it comes to wider child abuse nearly 90 per cent of those convicted and on the sex offenders register are white men. However, focussing entirely on one community ignores the fact that vulnerable young girls of all ethnicities are targeted by men.

it is crucial to recognise that in many child sexual exploitation cases, victims are also of different cultural and ethnic backgrounds, including Pakistani victims. If anything, some women’s groups have indeed put forward the case that in fact Pakistani girls are preferred targets as they are less likely to come forward and seek help due to the concepts of honour and shame.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...90106.html?amp

Researchers point out that the disproportionate representation of people of Asian ethnicity in studies on grooming gangs may be caused by a number of things including: bias in the collecting of information, the high profile nature of similar cases, and small sample sizes. This might mean, for example, that when recording information about offenders or suspected offenders, the organisations involved are more likely to record ethnicity if the person is Asian. Or it might mean that, because they had seem similar cases in the media, child protection organisations look out for specific types and patterns of grooming and abuse more than others leading to similar types of groups being caught.

[Hibrandenburg]

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No cultural links have been established. However we have to get to the bottom of why these grooming gangs seemed to be above the law.



In what way is ignoring what the girls were saying, and pulling resources from the enquiry not sweeping it under the carpet?

The original post on this thread claimed that it would appear to be a cultural thing amongst Pakistani men. That's my only real objection to the statements on this thread. Any failures to investigate the allegations in the first place lie with the authorities and not the Pakistani community. In the 50+ years I've been on this earth I've read about many different child abuse scandals in many different communities and organisations. Many of these scandals didn't come to light for years because the authorities didn't listen to the victims or didn't believe that the people committing these abhorrent deeds were capable of doing so.

Yes it's correct to ensure that these crimes are fully and thoroughly investigated, however it's wrong and racist to single out one community for extra vitriol and that's exactly what's happening here.

[Cataplana]

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The original post on this thread claimed that it would appear to be a cultural thing amongst Pakistani men. That's my only real objection to the statements on this thread. Any failures to investigate the allegations in the first place lie with the authorities and not the Pakistani community. In the 50+ years I've been on this earth I've read about many different child abuse scandals in many different communities and organisations. Many of these scandals didn't come to light for years because the authorities didn't listen to the victims or didn't believe that the people committing these abhorrent deeds were capable of doing so.

Yes it's correct to ensure that these crimes are fully and thoroughly investigated, however it's wrong and racist to single out one community for extra vitriol and that's exactly what's happening here.

I've not seen much vitriol. However, I think we're on the same page mostly.

I would be dismayed if it transpires that the authorities ignored it so as not to offend one group.