St Johnstone to start giving Old Firm THREE stands at McDairmid

[green day]

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It's not really that simple although it plays a part.

If Dunfermline, for example, decided to go full bigot (any flavour), it wouldn't attract more supporters.

If, however, they started regularly winning the league and competing in Europe, they would.

I remember Celtic and Rangers getting very low crowds when they were failing in the league.

All clubs get bigger crowds when they're having success and vice versa.

You are right about success giving higher crowds (us after promotion / Cup win are a good example).

However these events for most smaller clubs are very few and far between.

There are really only two clubs you would support if you have some sort of catholics v protestants nonsense going on in your life - there is no chance of the bit in bold happening so its a moot point.

I was - for various reasons - in Bridge of Allan for one of our play off matches v Rangers.

I watched it in a pub there and it was full to the gunnels of "Rangers fans". I am a sociable guy and got talking to a few guys at the bar.

They had a bit of a laugh when I said I was a Hibs ST holder - so I asked them where in Ibrox they usually sat.........no answer.

I then asked them why they supported Rangers.......funnily enough the chat dried up

[Hibbyradge]

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People living in Edinburgh and supporting the old firm week in week out are odd. I know people in Inverness who travel to watch celtic and would never watch ICT....thats very very weird to me. How is a small team supposed to get bigger and thrive if the locals cant be assed. As a kid id go and watch Musselburgh then Hibs when they were at home. I'd have gone and watched Bathgate or Broxie whenever i could if i lived there.... i'd also have chosen a senior team to go and watch as i got older. Prob an edinburgh team or Falkirk pre Livi being formed. I totally get that not everyone lives near to a senior club...but traveling to the other side of the country just to see "winning" isnt really what football is about for me.

I'm sure that most people who post on here feel the same, but I can understand why people do follow success.

Every season we see posts from Hibbies who are off to see Barca or Real etc. I've got tickets for Villa v Spurs and Man United v Watford next month.

I'd love to go to the Emirates or Anfield but I didn't even consider going to see Huddersfield last season and they were the closest EPL team to me.

There's a glamour associated with the more successful clubs. We see them on TV and we know their players. Like it or not, young people in Scotland watching Rantic are affected similarly and that's why it's common for people to support distant teams.

[where'stheslope]

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It's not really that simple although it plays a part.

If Dunfermline, for example, made a decision to go full bigot (any flavour), it wouldn't attract more supporters.

If, however, they started regularly winning the league and competing in Europe, they would.

I remember Celtic and Rangers getting very low crowds when they were failing in the league.

All clubs get bigger crowds when they're having success and vice versa.

That was a long time ago, when it cost clubs money to play in Europe!
Now playing in Europe, with TV rights it has made Celtic almost uncatchable for every club in Scotland bar Rangers.
Celtic are raking in £millions every season from European TV monies, so they can afford to pluck players from other clubs in Scotland without even playing them?
Now this season Rangers are flying high in both the league and Europe, which now makes it doubly hard to win or be successful here!
I can see for the next 10 years at least, there will be slim pickings for clubs outwith the Old Firm!!!!!

[jgl07]

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That was a long time ago, when it cost clubs money to play in Europe!
Now playing in Europe, with TV rights it has made Celtic almost uncatchable for every club in Scotland bar Rangers.
Celtic are raking in £millions every season from European TV monies, so they can afford to pluck players from other clubs in Scotland without even playing them?
Now this season Rangers are flying high in both the league and Europe, which now makes it doubly hard to win or be successful here!
I can see for the next 10 years at least, there will be slim pickings for clubs outwith the Old Firm!!!!!

As per the last thirty years then!

[sambajustice]

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As per the last thirty years then!

As per the last 140 years! I think in that time, celtic and rangers have about 105 titles with the other 35 being spread across the rest of Scotland.

People get on their high horse but it's never really been any different. It's even harder now and will never change until some ridiculously rich radge wants to try an "experiment" and pumps ludicrous amounts of money into a club

[easty]

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I'm sure that most people who post on here feel the same, but I can understand why people do follow success.

Every season we see posts from Hibbies who are off to see Barca or Real etc. I've got tickets for Villa v Spurs and Man United v Watford next month.

I'd love to go to the Emirates or Anfield but I didn't even consider going to see Huddersfield last season and they were the closest EPL team to me.

There's a glamour associated with the more successful clubs. We see them on TV and we know their players. Like it or not, young people in Scotland watching Rantic are affected similarly and that's why it's common for people to support distant teams.

I lived in Leeds for a couple of years and went to see Bradford a few times. Terrible standard of football.

[Hermit Crab]

It doesn't help St J that every single home game they play v the OF are televised and usually a crap kick off time as well as high ticket prices. They usually lose as well, not a lot to encourage would be fans along. Add in the party songs and general thuggish behaviour on show from the OF fans as well. Who wants to watch that?

Can see why they've done this to be honest.

[Nicho87]

Hope they get relegated next season

[heidtheba]

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Pretty sure Dundee United gave the old firm 3 out of the 5 stands, Dunfermline 2 out of 4 (plus maybe some of the main stand??).

Just shows you that regardless of how low you make the prices, people just won’t come, which totally disregards the argument from some on here to offer massively reduced family deals and expect it’ll increase attendances so much to make it worth our while.

My first reaction was "I'd rather give free tickets to local kids and their families than do that!" until I thought about it. Getting a bunch of (hopefully) football impressionable youngsters along to, let's face it, lose to a team with a lot more press and TV coverage will probably more likely create mini-Old Firm fans than St J ones.

Sad times.

[stoneyburn hibs]

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Hope they get relegated next season

I like your thinking 😁

[SquashedFrogg]

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It doesn't help St J that every single home game they play v the OF are televised and usually a crap kick off time as well as high ticket prices. They usually lose as well, not a lot to encourage would be fans along. Add in the party songs and general thuggish behaviour on show from the OF fans as well. Who wants to watch that?

Can see why they've done this to be honest.

Can't disagree with any of your points tbf.

[hibbysam]

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It doesn't help St J that every single home game they play v the OF are televised and usually a crap kick off time as well as high ticket prices. They usually lose as well, not a lot to encourage would be fans along. Add in the party songs and general thuggish behaviour on show from the OF fans as well. Who wants to watch that?

Can see why they've done this to be honest.

I’m presuming all of their non-OF home games which kick off at 3pm against your Hamilton’s and Ross County’s where they are favourites to win and are very cheap (as per their family deals) are complete sell outs then? If not then that argument is blown out of the water.

We were averaging 8k at one point not so long ago, and I’d have lost my **** if we had given the OF any more than they currently got, money or no money. I’d actually still prefer if we cut their allocation right back.

Your last point about behaviour of their fans - that shouldn’t be rewarded by receiving many more tickets, that should be where clubs take a stand.

[SquashedFrogg]

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I’m presuming all of their non-OF home games which kick off at 3pm against your Hamilton’s and Ross County’s where they are favourites to win and are very cheap (as per their family deals) are complete sell outs then? If not then that argument is blown out of the water.

We were averaging 8k at one point not so long ago, and I’d have lost my **** if we had given the OF any more than they currently got, money or no money. I’d actually still prefer if we cut their allocation right back.

Your last point about behaviour of their fans - that shouldn’t be rewarded by receiving many more tickets, that should be where clubs take a stand.

Are tickets at St Johnstone 'very cheap'? Website says adult tickets are £25?

Bottom line is that they want to maximise any opportunity they can to generate income. Might stick in the throat, but the old firm give them that opportunity. Fair play.

[hibbysam]

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Are tickets at St Johnstone 'very cheap'? Website says adult tickets are £25?

Bottom line is that they want to maximise any opportunity they can to generate income. Might stick in the throat, but the old firm give them that opportunity. Fair play.

Adult and 2 kids £17 or £25 dependant on which stand they sit in.. Point I was making are the excuses the previous poster used for Saints fans are the exact same ones that get trotted out for ours, time, price, Nae chance of winning, bad away fans, yet when every one of those factors are reversed (lesser games with more chance of winning, cheaper prices than the big games, quieter ‘nicer’ away fans) the fans still don’t show up.

I also wouldn’t say it’s ‘fair play’ for them taking this action. The fact they can’t get folk from Perth off their ***** to go along and watch them is their issue, if that’s the way they want to go then that’s up to them, however they can’t then complain or moan when the rest of Scottish football give them pelters for it.

It’s the reason this league will never become any more competitive, clubs (and hibs are included in this bit) are more worried about short term gains than looking at the long term potential for this league. Too scared to get rid of 2 old firm games, too scared to lower away income, too scared to hold those at the top accountable for absolute laughable tv and sponsorship deals.

[makaveli1875]

Every team should be cutting the Of down to the minimum amount possible. **** them and thier cash

[Since90+2]

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Every team should be cutting the Of down to the minimum amount possible. **** them and thier cash

If only it was as simple as that. Unfortunately the reality is for some clubs in the league they need and rely on Celticn and Sevco supports and the amount of money they bring.

[SquashedFrogg]

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If only it was as simple as that. Unfortunately the reality is for some clubs in the league they need and rely on Celticn and Sevco supports and the amount of money they bring.

Correct. In an ideal world teams would give them the least tickets possible. Sadly, many teams simply can't justify that decision commercially. Particularly smaller supported clubs.

[SquashedFrogg]

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Adult and 2 kids £17 or £25 dependant on which stand they sit in.. Point I was making are the excuses the previous poster used for Saints fans are the exact same ones that get trotted out for ours, time, price, Nae chance of winning, bad away fans, yet when every one of those factors are reversed (lesser games with more chance of winning, cheaper prices than the big games, quieter ‘nicer’ away fans) the fans still don’t show up.

I also wouldn’t say it’s ‘fair play’ for them taking this action. The fact they can’t get folk from Perth off their ***** to go along and watch them is their issue, if that’s the way they want to go then that’s up to them, however they can’t then complain or moan when the rest of Scottish football give them pelters for it.

It’s the reason this league will never become any more competitive, clubs (and hibs are included in this bit) are more worried about short term gains than looking at the long term potential for this league. Too scared to get rid of 2 old firm games, too scared to lower away income, too scared to hold those at the top accountable for absolute laughable tv and sponsorship deals.

So it'll be £25 for me then as an adult. Not that cheap tbf.

Many of your points lead to more fundamental issues in our game. League restructuring etc.

On the main subject however I just can't be too critical of a small club making ommercial decision to bring in more revenue.

The utopian ideology you touch on sounds great, but some clubs need to balance the books and pay the bills.

I'm not exactly a fan of the old firm. But is it not bizzare to restrict their tickets when half the stadium is empty?

[hibbysam]

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So it'll be £25 for me then as an adult. Not that cheap tbf.

Many of your points lead to more fundamental issues in our game. League restructuring etc.

On the main subject however I just can't be too critical of a small club making ommercial decision to bring in more revenue.

The utopian ideology you touch on sounds great, but some clubs need to balance the books and pay the bills.

I'm not exactly a fan of the old firm. But is it not bizzare to restrict their tickets when half the stadium is empty?

‘Some clubs need to balance the books’ - there is 101 other ways of increasing income/decreasing expenditure, but they’ll take the easy option of a quick quid, which results in the league never changing for the better.

[The Captain....]

As we enter a new decade it seems like we're seeing the age old duopoly of the bigot bros preparing to completely dominate Scottish football again. Large swathes of the media and those running the game will be delighted no doubt. Then they will gave the cheek to criticise fans of the other clubs for rejecting this and not turning up to watch a totally uncompetitive league.

Young fans and new fans aren't going to be persuaded along to watch this play out. I fully expect there to be a significant drop in our own season ticket numbers next year for this reason and the same will be reflected over the other clubs. Scottish football in it's short sightedness is going to destroy itself..not that The Rangers and Celtic will particularly care..but they should. 10 in a row seems to be the only narrative that either care about tho. The rest of us couldn't give a flying one about it.

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[hibbysam]

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As we enter a new decade it seems like we're seeing the age old duopoly of the bigot bros preparing to completely dominate Scottish football again. Large swathes of the media and those running the game will be delighted no doubt. Then they will gave the cheek to criticise fans of the other clubs for rejecting this and not turning up to watch a totally uncompetitive league.

Young fans and new fans aren't going to be persuaded along to watch this play out. I fully expect there to be a significant drop in our own season ticket numbers next year for this reason and the same will be reflected over the other clubs. Scottish football in it's short sightedness is going to destroy itself..not that The Rangers and Celtic will particularly care..but they should. 10 in a row seems to be the only narrative that either care about tho. The rest of us couldn't give a flying one about it.

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Absolutely, but it’s fine, clubs need to get as much income as possible in as short a period as possible, without looking at the long term benefits that could happen.

[SquashedFrogg]

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‘Some clubs need to balance the books’ - there is 101 other ways of increasing income/decreasing expenditure, but they’ll take the easy option of a quick quid, which results in the league never changing for the better.

So how else do St Johnstone significantly increase income if there are 101 other ways?

[hibbysam]

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So how else do St Johnstone significantly increase income if there are 101 other ways?

You start at the top and ask questions of the league, which you are part of, and wonder why certain competitions cannot garner sponsorship, you start to wonder why we have one or the worst tv deals in Europe when our game has been thriving, you start bringing through your own players and selling them on for large profits (who was the last 3 big money moves out of St Johnstone?), them and many others could’ve grown a set when rangers were out of the top league and changed the voting system to allow a more even distribution of wealth across the league rather than top 2 heavy. They wouldn’t do that at the time though as they were benefiting from 3 of the top 5 being out of the league. They should’ve got out of a group that included Forfar, Brechin and Montrose in the league cup - extra pennies.

It’s fairly clear that they are still working off a budget of when they were getting in the top 6, and Europe regularly, while finishing in the bottom 6 constantly.

In reality they can do as they please, however no business survives working from month to month, year to year, there must be a long term vision and plan, and they can’t cry about having no fans when they have absolutely no vision or plan of how they will be competitive in 5/10/15 years time in a competitive, exciting league with proper income streams into the country.

[SquashedFrogg]

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You start at the top and ask questions of the league, which you are part of, and wonder why certain competitions cannot garner sponsorship, you start to wonder why we have one or the worst tv deals in Europe when our game has been thriving, you start bringing through your own players and selling them on for large profits (who was the last 3 big money moves out of St Johnstone?), them and many others could’ve grown a set when rangers were out of the top league and changed the voting system to allow a more even distribution of wealth across the league rather than top 2 heavy. They wouldn’t do that at the time though as they were benefiting from 3 of the top 5 being out of the league. They should’ve got out of a group that included Forfar, Brechin and Montrose in the league cup - extra pennies.

It’s fairly clear that they are still working off a budget of when they were getting in the top 6, and Europe regularly, while finishing in the bottom 6 constantly.

In reality they can do as they please, however no business survives working from month to month, year to year, there must be a long term vision and plan, and they can’t cry about having no fans when they have absolutely no vision or plan of how they will be competitive in 5/10/15 years time in a competitive, exciting league with proper income streams into the country.

All sounds great in theory. But what happens when all of this takes place and their stadium is still less than half full? Are they still ok to maximise match day revenue?

What if this move brings in enough funds to improve their youth set up, which in turn, helps them develop and sell players in the future? What if this extra income brings in better players which gives them greater success on the pitch?

I'm not stating that all is perfect in our game. Far from it. But I'm still not seeing a valid reason for St Johnstone not to generate more income via ticket sales.

Livingston and Hamilton are other examples of poorly supported clubs who give up large parts of their stadiums in order to sell more tickets.

I honestly don't see the big issue. If we had a big enough away support I'd love to see us get this new allocation.

[neil7908]

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Absolutely, but it’s fine, clubs need to get as much income as possible in as short a period as possible, without looking at the long term benefits that could happen.

Yup. We're just seeing the slow death of Scottish football, nothing to see here people.

Some will say the OF have dominated for years but I think that underestimates how football and society has shifted globally. When I started watching in the early 90s you still had the legacy of the great Aberdeen and Dundee United teams in the 80s as inspiration and a source of hope. For young fans now they know that only following the OF will give them any chance of supporting a "successful" club. Or they can easily watch Liverpool, Barca, Juventus on TV in a way I never could and connect with the clubs and their players on social media.

Football has always been entertainment but now more than ever I think young fans who are on social media want to follow exciting, successful teams.

I really worry about Scottish football, including Hibs, and how we will cope in the medium to the long term. Actions like St Johnstone's are only the tip of the iceberg I'm afraid. What next, give them all 4 stands?

Sadly I could see us ending up in this position down the road.

[Hibbyradge]

What would be the benefits to St Johnstone if they kept the other 2 stands empty?

Furthermore, if there are advantages in restricting your income like that, would it not be in Hibs' interest to ban away fans and simply close the South Stand altogether?

That might open up the possibility of selling it for a second hotel.

[macca70]

If it’s purely financial decision which it clearly is, why not just change venue and get even more in by just changing them to away games

[Since452]

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Yup. We're just seeing the slow death of Scottish football, nothing to see here people.

Some will say the OF have dominated for years but I think that underestimates how football and society has shifted globally. When I started watching in the early 90s you still had the legacy of the great Aberdeen and Dundee United teams in the 80s as inspiration and a source of hope. For young fans now they know that only following the OF will give them any chance of supporting a "successful" club. Or they can easily watch Liverpool, Barca, Juventus on TV in a way I never could and connect with the clubs and their players on social media.

Football has always been entertainment but now more than ever I think young fans who are on social media want to follow exciting, successful teams.

I really worry about Scottish football, including Hibs, and how we will cope in the medium to the long term. Actions like St Johnstone's are only the tip of the iceberg I'm afraid. What next, give them all 4 stands?

Sadly I could see us ending up in this position down the road.

I think the likes of Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen are fine. Aberdeen have cut the away allocation for everyone including Celtic and Rangers recently and ourselves and Hearts have both done it in the last few seasons. It's different for St Johnsone, Livingston etc who have tiny fan bases. Sure I read that St Johnstone's lowest home gate is against Rangers where they only attract 1500 home fans. Makes complete sense for them to sell the other tickets to Rangers and make a few bob. Doesn't mean I like it . Same with Livi. Scottish football is in great shape because we've had to cut our cloth accordingly and live within our means. There are no financial disasters around the corner for clubs as they're generally paying out less than they get in. Compare it to the English Championship which is a disaster waiting to happen

[Gloucester Hibs]

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What would be the benefits to St Johnstone if they kept the other 2 stands empty?

Furthermore, if there are advantages in restricting your income like that, would it not be in Hibs' interest to ban away fans and simply close the South Stand altogether?

That might open up the possibility of selling it for a second hotel.

I know you're being facetious, but the times we've cut the OF's allocation at ER we've been unbeaten. That would indicate it is not without merit. Certainly when the demand is there from our support to at least partially fill the empty sections in the South.

[Peevemor]

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I know you're being facetious, but the times we've cut the OF's allocation at ER we've been unbeaten. That would indicate it is not without merit. Certainly when the demand is there from our support to at least partially fill the empty sections in the South.

Demand was high because the team was playing very well. Also for "OF" read Rangers, who weren't so good at the time.