Scottish Independence

[Moulin Yarns]

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But they didnt stand for independence,. They stood on an anti brexit ticket.

And the 13 Scottish (sic) Tories stood on an anti Indyref2 ticket and I wonder how that worked out for them?

[Ozyhibby]

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But they didnt stand for independence,. They stood on an anti brexit ticket.

Unionists - All you talk about is independence.
Also unionists - You got elected based on other stuff.



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[cabbageandribs1875]

nice wee clip of catalans showing support for Scotland




https://www.facebook.com/ken.jackson...8593159488484/

[ronaldo7]

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Oh they've got a mandate to ask the question. There's no doubt about that.

What I'm saying is that I disagree with the concept that such material change should be made with a 51% winning number. I believe that a substantial percentage of the voting public should be required to impact such change.

I think that was a big issue with brexit and I personally feel like Scotland would be best served if the vote for independence was an over whelming landslide. That doesn't mean it won't be - but it should be because it automatically kills any argument about second votes etc.

Again - I'm not anti Indy. I'm simply sick fed up of infighting across the UK on all levels. Referendums must be decisive.

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Totally respect your position. It's not one I endorse however.

Super majorities are used when one argument is losing. We've seen it used by the Labour party (Cunningham), at Westminster, and now Kelly at Holyrood. We've had to respect the result of the 2014 indyref, and we're still part of the Union. Democracy doesn't stand still however, and things change, as we've seen since then.

I'm all for people having the right to choose, and if we win the next one, I'm all for the position, that if the Unionists, on a manifesto, promise that they'll go back into the Union, win in the Scottish Parliament, they'll have the right to go back, unless we change the voting franchise.

I get where you're coming from, but no super majority for me.

[ronaldo7]

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But they didnt stand for independence,. They stood on an anti brexit ticket.

Happy to help you understand exactly what they stood for. The manifesto ran to 52 pages. Here's 12 key issues.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50561073

[Hibrandenburg]

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The SNP won’t mind them whipping up British nationalism.


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Then they're naive, the kind of stuff I'm talking about is similar to the old 1930s propaganda posters seen in Germany. The aim is to demonize the victims to such a level that political discourse is meaningless because the victim has been turned into a monster already in the eyes of the hard of thinking who get their own prejudices confirmed.

[Just_Jimmy]

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Totally respect your position. It's not one I endorse however.

Super majorities are used when one argument is losing. We've seen it used by the Labour party (Cunningham), at Westminster, and now Kelly at Holyrood. We've had to respect the result of the 2014 indyref, and we're still part of the Union. Democracy doesn't stand still however, and things change, as we've seen since then.

I'm all for people having the right to choose, and if we win the next one, I'm all for the position, that if the Unionists, on a manifesto, promise that they'll go back into the Union, win in the Scottish Parliament, they'll have the right to go back, unless we change the voting franchise.

I get where you're coming from, but no super majority for me.

That's a fair stance. We've discussed the topic like adults and we've been civil to each other. I'm sure both sides of the argument could learn from that.

To others who replied on Brexit, all fair inputs however a lot of the complications could have been avoided if we'd made the percentage decisive.

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[Skol]

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Happy to help you understand exactly what they stood for. The manifesto ran to 52 pages. Here's 12 key issues.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50561073

So you started reading at no 2 ?

[ronaldo7]

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So you started reading at no 2 ?

They stood on all 12, not 1 of 12. I read them all. 👍

I didn't stop reading after 1. 👍

[grunt]

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The aim is to demonize the victims to such a level that political discourse is meaningless because the victim has been turned into a monster already in the eyes of the hard of thinking who get their own prejudices confirmed.

This seems to be exactly what the Tories are doing with their orchestrated walkout from the HoC every time Blackford gets up to speak. And judging by the comments on Twitter, it's working.

[lapsedhibee]

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This seems to be exactly what the Tories are doing with their orchestrated walkout from the HoC every time Blackford gets up to speak. And judging by the comments on Twitter, it's working.

Presumably the twitter response is also orchestrated, though, independently, rather than the HoC shenanigans causing it. Cummings's Ministry of Public Enlightenment behind all that, and much, much more to come. Starting with Kuenssberg getting special access during the Salmond trial.

[allmodcons]

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But they didnt stand for independence,. They stood on an anti brexit ticket.

Are you seriously suggesting that people don't know by now that the SNP's raison d'etre is Scottish Independence?

They were anti Brexit, pro Independence with the central plank of the campaign being all about Scotland having a say on it's own path.

[G B Young]

I don't always agree with Brian Wilson, but he sums up how I see it here:

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinio...lson-1-5065541

Nothing new from Euan McColm here but he's on the money too IMHO:

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinio...date-1-5065710

[Smartie]

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I don't always agree with Brian Wilson, but he sums up how I see it here:

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinio...lson-1-5065541

Nothing new from Euan McColm here but he's on the money too IMHO:

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinio...date-1-5065710

I couldn't read the Brian Wilson article due to the usual problems with the Scotsman website, but presumably as a devout unionist he's welcoming in the new Boris Johnson government, proclaiming the strength of the British people in having those in Sedgefield, Blythe Valley and Leigh stand shoulder to shoulder with those in Springburn and Niddrie, and looking forward to what this new Conservative administration will do for the people who live in those areas?

[Mon Dieu4]

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I don't always agree with Brian Wilson, but he sums up how I see it here:

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinio...lson-1-5065541

Nothing new from Euan McColm here but he's on the money too IMHO:

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinio...date-1-5065710

That just says to me the Scotsman doesn't want independence to be honest

The country I would say at this stage is 50/50 on independence and considering that before the last referendum they thought pro independence was about 28% it's a great starting point

They are getting in early with project fear 2.0

While she is first minister and the SNP are the biggest party in Holyrood and Westminster then Surgeon does speak for Scotland, doesn't matter if you or they like it or not

5 elections on the spin that they have gained about 45% of the vote

I totally get that not everyone wants independence but I'm of the firm belief if the biggest party in Scotland chooses to have a referendum then they could do if every week if they want as long as it was in their manifesto and everyone knew about it

Once again it's people talking us down instead of up

[grunt]

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I don't always agree with Brian Wilson, but he sums up how I see it here:

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinio...lson-1-5065541

Nothing new from Euan McColm here but he's on the money too IMHO:

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinio...date-1-5065710

1. I never agree with Brian Wilson on anything, he's just a bitter old man.
2. Two articles in the Scotsman knocking Sturgeon and the SNP?? Colour me surprised.

What a rag that paper has become.

[Ozyhibby]

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1. I never agree with Brian Wilson on anything, he's just a bitter old man.
2. Two articles in the Scotsman knocking Sturgeon and the SNP?? Colour me surprised.

What a rag that paper has become.

I’ll be surprised if the Scotsman survives until the next indyref.


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[Ozyhibby]

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I don't always agree with Brian Wilson, but he sums up how I see it here:

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinio...lson-1-5065541

Nothing new from Euan McColm here but he's on the money too IMHO:

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinio...date-1-5065710

Funny how unionists are are complaining about the first past the post system these days.
Fact is the SNP are winning elections in Scotland and the prize for that is they represent Scotland. When Sturgeon speaks, she speaks for Scotland whether you like it or not.


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[Smartie]

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Funny how unionists are are complaining about the first past the post system these days.
Fact is the SNP are winning elections in Scotland and the prize for that is they represent Scotland. When Sturgeon speaks, she speaks for Scotland whether you like it or not.


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Many of us have issues with the Tories, but there is no disputing the result of the election. They got an overwhelming majority and the mandates that go with that.

The same goes for the SNP in Scotland.

[Cataplana]

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1. I never agree with Brian Wilson on anything, he's just a bitter old man.
2. Two articles in the Scotsman knocking Sturgeon and the SNP?? Colour me surprised.

What a rag that paper has become.

If you want to stop Independence then vote for the Conservative and Unionist Party. Less than 25% of those polled voted for them.

[Skol]

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They stood on all 12, not 1 of 12. I read them all. 👍

I didn't stop reading after 1. 👍

Neither did I. And I noted 4 of the 12 were for more devolved powers.

[Skol]

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Are you seriously suggesting that people don't know by now that the SNP's raison d'etre is Scottish Independence?

They were anti Brexit, pro Independence with the central plank of the campaign being all about Scotland having a say on it's own path.

Of course I am not. However the primary message from the SNP was Anti Brexit / Stop the Tories and they sought vote from people who would vote no in order to get the scottish voice heard at Westminster.

If the SNP want to build a case for Independence, they should get their heads down and make a success of running the country with what they have.

[Callum_62]

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Of course I am not. However the primary message from the SNP was Anti Brexit / Stop the Tories and they sought vote from people who would vote no in order to get the scottish voice heard at Westminster.

If the SNP want to build a case for Independence, they should get their heads down and make a success of running the country with what they have.

Why should we be content with what we have, or what we are given?

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[CloudSquall]

Brian Wilson and Euan McColm displaying weapon's grade seethe that I thought was only possible to find on Kickback.

[Moulin Yarns]

A bit on where people are with independence issues.


https://www.progressscotland.org/res...4djOz8TUN2ymFY

[Skol]

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Why should we be content with what we have, or what we are given?

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For me the SNP have to demonstrate that we can have the vision they talk of. There is no point getting more when you dont make the best of what you have.

They need to bring the country together and not divide it.

[Moulin Yarns]

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nice wee clip of catalans showing support for Scotland




https://www.facebook.com/ken.jackson...8593159488484/

I posted this a few days ago. It's people of the Basque Country showing solidarity with Catalonia and Scotland.

[Ozyhibby]

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For me the SNP have to demonstrate that we can have the vision they talk of. There is no point getting more when you dont make the best of what you have.

They need to bring the country together and not divide it.

Can you name a UK govt that has made the best of what we have?
The SNP govt have been a very competent, it’s why they keep winning.


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[G B Young]

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I couldn't read the Brian Wilson article due to the usual problems with the Scotsman website, but presumably as a devout unionist he's welcoming in the new Boris Johnson government, proclaiming the strength of the British people in having those in Sedgefield, Blythe Valley and Leigh stand shoulder to shoulder with those in Springburn and Niddrie, and looking forward to what this new Conservative administration will do for the people who live in those areas?

Agree about the utter crapness of the Scotsman website but Wilson doesn't say any of the things you mention. He just sums up the case for the majority of the 'people of Scotland' (to borrow from the SNP mantra) who find the incessant barrage about independence utterly wearisome and have no issue with being Scottish and British.

[Just Alf]

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Agree about the utter crapness of the Scotsman website but Wilson doesn't say any of the things you mention. He just sums up the case for the majority of the 'people of Scotland' (to borrow from the SNP mantra) who find the incessant barrage about independence utterly wearisome and have no issue with being Scottish and British.

It's a fair point, these people will then surely vote for a party that doesn't want to put the electorate through another referendum, that will put it to bed until a vote at some point in the future where the party wanting a referendum gets a majority again.

Basically for those not wanting a referendum all they need to do is vote that way and win at the next Holyrood elections and the idea's stone dead for a while.

Until then though.......


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