General election 2019

[SHODAN]

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I think the SNP should stick to their guns, and they need to.

If they back down and support Labour without getting the power to hold a referendum just to keep out the Tories they'll never get it, Labour will know they'll **** it and back them regardless in the future.

I think Labour voters down south are (on the whole) quite sympathetic to the SNP's argument towards holding a referendum, does Corbyn really want to explain to them why he gave up the chance to govern due to refusing to accept the SNP mandate to hold a referendum?

It's just going to be Ian Murray up here again anyway.

[StevieC]

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BT are ine of the worst companies I have ever dealt with. The very worst of a privatised monopoly. Take them back as a nationalised monopoly ? What could possibly go wrong? I can only imagine the cost overruns and delays will be even worse from them under the control of government.

That’s my thoughts as well. Been dealing with them for nearly 30 years and they are a nightmare. Their disconnect between BT and Openreach is shambolic. Whoever decided that an untrained phone operative was the best person to provide fault information to an engineer (semi-trained!) needs shot.
Nationalising BT would be a disaster. You need to force them to improve their service, and how you do that is the real test of a government.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

I recall at the time of Milibands leadership, that Alex Salmond said that if Miliband didn't know what to put in the manifesto about Scotland, then he would come down and write it for him. Hugely counter productive at the time and one of the reasons that I could never engage with him as for me, he was always a well heeled economist first and foremost. The SNP should stick to the plan to win all the seats and let what happens next sort itself out.

[Colr]

National Broadband for the National Good

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CCfW6HFP5cI

[Fife-Hibee]

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It's just going to be Ian Murray up here again anyway.

Just Ian Murray is right..... not Labour, just Ian Murray who is the closest thing to being an independent without it being "official".

[Glory Lurker]

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I would love a debate about this that wasn’t loaded with a nationalist agenda, similarly that wasn’t subject to Stay propaganda.

It is perhaps the biggest issue we face but it is obscured by all the other stuff that is going on.

I am cautious to debate as I am unsure what I will be met with.

Open for fair and reasonable discussion but I am not interested in the defensiveness or vitriol I have seen so far. I am not out to criticise the SNHS but I do have questions about how SG is managing health services.

Fair dos. It could no doubt be discussed free of constitutional issues, but appreciate that could easy find its way in. Agree with you that it is a huge issue.

[lucky]

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Just Ian Murray is right..... not Labour, just Ian Murray who is the closest thing to being an independent without it being "official".

Murray is a Labour candidate and is being funded by the party. Nowhere near an independent, in fact he’d lose as as independent

[CloudSquall]

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Murray is a Labour candidate and is being funded by the party. Nowhere near an independent, in fact he’d lose as as independent

Lose to the SNP or Labour?

IMO it's highly unlikely he'd be unseated by the SNP if he was an independent, and I'd bet both of my Henry Halls Labour couldn't unseat him.

[Jack]

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I would love a debate about this that wasn’t loaded with a nationalist agenda, similarly that wasn’t subject to Stay propaganda.

It is perhaps the biggest issue we face but it is obscured by all the other stuff that is going on.

I am cautious to debate as I am unsure what I will be met with.

Open for fair and reasonable discussion but I am not interested in the defensiveness or vitriol I have seen so far. I am not out to criticise the SNHS but I do have questions about how SG is managing health services.

But you're not open for fair and reasonable discussion at all!

NHSScotland holds itself to account, the Scottish Government hold NHSScotland to account, the voters in Scotland hold the Scottish Government to account. Everyone knows it can do better.

You keep going on about it's shortcomings as a way to take pot shots at the SNP led Scottish Government while not being prepared to accept NHSScotland is the best performing NHS system in the UK. One thing is for sure if Labour were running the NHS in Scotland as they do in Wales or if the Torys ran it in the same way as they do in England there would be many more shortcomings as evidenced by their performance.

If, as it seems you are not prepared to accept this as fact you are going to have posters constantly challenging you.

[Future17]

By way of some light-hearted relief on this thread, I live in Edinburgh East and my wife just told the neighbours she'll be voting for Tommy Robinson...

[Mibbes Aye]

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But you're not open for fair and reasonable discussion at all!

NHSScotland holds itself to account, the Scottish Government hold NHSScotland to account, the voters in Scotland hold the Scottish Government to account. Everyone knows it can do better.

You keep going on about it's shortcomings as a way to take pot shots at the SNP led Scottish Government while not being prepared to accept NHSScotland is the best performing NHS system in the UK. One thing is for sure if Labour were running the NHS in Scotland as they do in Wales or if the Torys ran it in the same way as they do in England there would be many more shortcomings as evidenced by their performance.

If, as it seems you are not prepared to accept this as fact you are going to have posters constantly challenging you.

No.

I challenge people posting, saying look at Scotland, we are doing far better than England and Wales.

Those posters, and that includes you, don’t acknowledge that Scotland is failing to meet the targets it set itself and is breaking the law the SNP set itself.

So when you talk about accountability excuse me if I wince or pass a wry smile.

Let us be accurate. Saying we are doing better than England is firstly a false comparison, because the local government cuts are two years ahead there, which impacts on social care, which impacts on acute performance.

Secondly, trumpeting that things are less worse in Scotland is pathetic. It’s akin to saying “Hey, Colin Calderwood. Better than that Terry Butcher, eh?”

I think less defensiveness and more honesty are in order, rather than clinging to the fact that Scotland fails to meet its targets but slightly less worse at it than other parts of the UK

[Cataplana]

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But you're not open for fair and reasonable discussion at all!

NHSScotland holds itself to account, the Scottish Government hold NHSScotland to account, the voters in Scotland hold the Scottish Government to account. Everyone knows it can do better.

You keep going on about it's shortcomings as a way to take pot shots at the SNP led Scottish Government while not being prepared to accept NHSScotland is the best performing NHS system in the UK. One thing is for sure if Labour were running the NHS in Scotland as they do in Wales or if the Torys ran it in the same way as they do in England there would be many more shortcomings as evidenced by their performance.

If, as it seems you are not prepared to accept this as fact you are going to have posters constantly challenging you.

Look, if the system is working at 50% efficiency, but everywhere else is working at 40% it's still nothing to crow about.

Saying the SNP are less bad at running the health service is not really a vote winner.

[Jack]

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No.

I challenge people posting, saying look at Scotland, we are doing far better than England and Wales.

Those posters, and that includes you, don’t acknowledge that Scotland is failing to meet the targets it set itself and is breaking the law the SNP set itself.

So when you talk about accountability excuse me if I wince or pass a wry smile.

Let us be accurate. Saying we are doing better than England is firstly a false comparison, because the local government cuts are two years ahead there, which impacts on social care, which impacts on acute performance.

Secondly, trumpeting that things are less worse in Scotland is pathetic. It’s akin to saying “Hey, Colin Calderwood. Better than that Terry Butcher, eh?”

I think less defensiveness and more honesty are in order, rather than clinging to the fact that Scotland fails to meet its targets but slightly less worse at it than other parts of the UK

So while you keep harping about that the retort will be ...

Ach you already know but those posters will keep on reminding you.

[G B Young]

At least there's one poll Corbyn can win hands-down...unpopularity among voters:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50403154

[Mibbes Aye]

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Fair dos. It could no doubt be discussed free of constitutional issues, but appreciate that could easy find its way in. Agree with you that it is a huge issue.

Yeah, I think to an extent, the public don’t really have an awareness of the demographics.

We are experiencing a massive rise, which is set to continue, in our older population, 75+ and 85+.

I would have to check but I think the 85+ population is set to treble over the next decade or two.

While some of those people will never or only lightly touch health and care services, a lot more will be living into their eighties with long-term conditions - COPD, diabetes, chronic heart disease, arthritis, several others, and often multiples of those.

It represents a massive demand on NHS and social care, and neither are currently resourced for it.

I also think there is a need for a thoughtful conversation about expectations and entitlement, and what is realistic.

For me, it needs something along the lines of a Royal Commission, instead of politicians of all hues kicking it down the road.

[Jack]

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Look, if the system is working at 50% efficiency, but everywhere else is working at 40% it's still nothing to crow about.

Saying the SNP are less bad at running the health service is not really a vote winner.

But it's not running at 50%.

Saying they can run a health service better than Labour or the Torys puts the SNP at least a step ahead.

[Mibbes Aye]

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So while you keep harping about that the retort will be ...

Ach you already know but those posters will keep on reminding you.

Not sure what you are saying to be honest, but I don’t feel you are refuting my point.

Failing is failing, even if it is slightly less failure than the perfidious Albion.

Making out SNHS is a paragon is fallacious and really, really weak. It is in a mess.

Saying it it is better than England is a poor attempt at deflecting what is justifiable criticism.

What happens if and when independence comes? Will you still be saying, yes we are missing our legally-binding targets but hey, we are missing them a little less than England?

And you have never come close to responding to the point about England being a couple of years ahead in cuts to local government and social care. I know that you know that has a massive influence on acute performance.

[G B Young]

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If you think that trotting out this tired old line about 1979 will win Labour votes in Scotland you are very much mistaken. Quite frankly it’s utterly pathetic, Corbyn had a certain degree of leeway up here until he tweeted about 1979. At that moment he became the same as every other Westminster politician that headed up here.
weve had all three leaders of the main political parties come up to Scotland, none have asked what we want, but everyone of them has told us what we’re allowed. Do you know what mate, we’re not listening anymore.

By that do you mean SNP supporters? Or do you mean the Scottish electorate? If you mean the latter, then I'd beg to differ because in my view it's thanks to the main political parties 'listening' to the Scottish electorate that Scotland now has such a heavily devolved Scottish parliament. Also, the 2014 independence referendum was agreed to by a Tory government, which doesn't really smack of 'not listening' whether you happened to like the result or not.

As for Brexit, while a significant majority of Scottish voters may have voted remain (although the million plus who voted leave is not an insignificant minority) when the opportunity came in 2017 for the SNP to gain political mileage from that (ie crank up the calls for another independence referendum based on the fact that 'the people of Scotland' voted remain) the Scottish electorate ended up returning more Tory MPs than have been seen in Scotland since the 1970s while de-seating a hefty chunk of SNP MPs.

I agree Corbyn cut a particularly gormless figure in his tartan scarf last week, but what do you expect that main party leaders to do during an election campaign? Just not bother turning up in Scotland?

[Mibbes Aye]

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But it's not running at 50%.

Saying they can run a health service better than Labour or the Torys puts the SNP at least a step ahead.

Failure is failure.

Saying the SNP is running things better is Calderwood v Butcher.

The QEIi, the Sick Kids, the shortfall of beds at ERI, the bullying scandals at NHS Highland, the falsifying of figures at NHS Lothian, the financial bailouts for at least three health boards ad infinitum

Yeah, a step ahead.

[Cataplana]

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So while you keep harping about that the retort will be ...

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Ach you already know but those posters will keep on reminding you.

Fair's fair, Mibbes Aye seems to have a very good grasp of the issues facing the health service. He has countered some of the things I have raised very well, and made me think again.

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But it's not running at 50%.

Saying they can run a health service better than Labour or the Torys puts the SNP at least a step ahead.

We don't know what it's running at. The measures used to compare health care systems are arbitary, I have already raised the point about our mental health services as an example.

Choosing which targets to meet, and then bullying staff to make decisions based on finance, or turnaround, rather than clinical matters, is not good for any of us.

I am not doing our NHS down, but when areas such as addiction and brain injuries (to name but two) are so badly served, it's not the time to be crowing about anything.

I keep returning to this, but the NHS asked not to be used as a political football in this election campaign, but too often people who don't know what they are talking about (that doesn't mean you) think they can comment on what is going on.

I have yet to hear any of them say what they would do differently other than nonsense like throwing more money at it, recruiting more nurses or bringing back the matrons.

How many people have died as a result of the four hour target being missed? How many have died because they have been rushed through triage to meet the target and then been placed in the wrong department? Those are the basic questions that need to be addressed.

[Mibbes Aye]

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Fair's fair, Mibbes Aye seems to have a very good grasp of the issues facing the health service. He has countered some of the things I have raised very well, and made me think again.

We don't know what it's running at. The measures used to compare health care systems are arbitary, I have already raised the point about our mental health services as an example.

Choosing which targets to meet, and then bullying staff to make decisions based on finance, or turnaround, rather than clinical matters, is not good for any of us.

I am not doing our NHS down, but when areas such as addiction and brain injuries (to name but two) are so badly served, it's not the time to be crowing about anything.

I keep returning to this, but the NHS asked not to be used as a political football in this election campaign, but too often people who don't know what they are talking about (that doesn't mean you) think they can comment on what is going on.

I have yet to hear any of them say what they would do differently other than nonsense like throwing more money at it, recruiting more nurses or bringing back the matrons.

How many people have died as a result of the four hour target being missed? How many have died because they have been rushed through triage to meet the target and then been placed in the wrong department? Those are the basic questions that need to be addressed.

I think the second sentence in your last paragraph is particularly resonant. Staff, on the whole, are committed and passionate about what they do. The structures and processes, and the culture of consultants being treated like gods, don’t lend themselves to patient-centred care, or indeed good, safe pathways for patients.

[Just Alf]

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But it's not running at 50%.

Saying they can run a health service better than Labour or the Torys puts the SNP at least a step ahead.

Which is a perfectly valid point to make on a general election thread when we're comparing how the differing NHS's are performing across the UK relative to the parties in control in eash area.

Seperately we also ALL agree that the NHS in Scotland should be better and that's for an NHS thread I'd say... Will future cuts impact it, will the government of the day be able to mitigate those cuts etc etc

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[Just Alf]

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I think the second sentence in your last paragraph is particularly resonant. Staff, on the whole, are committed and passionate about what they do. The structures and processes, and the culture of consultants being treated like gods, don’t lend themselves to patient-centred care, or indeed good, safe pathways for patients.

Agree with that 100%

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[Cataplana]

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I think the second sentence in your last paragraph is particularly resonant. Staff, on the whole, are committed and passionate about what they do. The structures and processes, and the culture of consultants being treated like gods, don’t lend themselves to patient-centred care, or indeed good, safe pathways for patients.

I'd question that, as I have seen situations where consultants have had to grovel to managers to get the correct resources for their patients.

Financial decisions tend to be taken on a hand to mouth basis, and rarely are based on what will cost less in the long term. The service is over managed IMO.

I have yet to hear a party committing to streamlining the beaurocracy and allowing doctors and nurses to get on with it.

[Mibbes Aye]

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I'd question that, as I have seen situations where consultants have had to grovel to managers to get the correct resources for their patients.

Financial decisions tend to be taken on a hand to mouth basis, and rarely are based on what will cost less in the long term. The service is over managed IMO.

I have yet to hear a party committing to streamlining the beaurocracy and allowing doctors and nurses to get on with it.

Yeah, we are getting off-topic here but it is an interesting point. Consultants are treated like gods operationally, but whenever you look at the likes of the Sturrock report into NHS Highland it flags up the culture you identify, where medics are beholden to non-clinician managers.

Your last paragraph is interesting because arguably the Tories a few years ago made a move towards empowering doctors via clinical commissioning groups. I would argue that GPs will always say they are overworked and have no commissioning expertise, so why would you give them a commissioning budget? I think you are right about the lack of long-term planning. As for over-management, I simply couldn’t comment

[Cataplana]

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Yeah, we are getting off-topic here but it is an interesting point. Consultants are treated like gods operationally, but whenever you look at the likes of the Sturrock report into NHS Highland it flags up the culture you identify, where medics are beholden to non-clinician managers.

Your last paragraph is interesting because arguably the Tories a few years ago made a move towards empowering doctors via clinical commissioning groups. I would argue that GPs will always say they are overworked and have no commissioning expertise, so why would you give them a commissioning budget? I think you are right about the lack of long-term planning. As for over-management, I simply couldn’t comment

I am not complaining about efficient management, efficient management would involve the consultant going straight to the top of the tree, saying here are my reasons for spending this money, and that being the end of it. Instead they seem to have to tell everyone they deal with that they will go over their head.

What would bring the topic back on track is the public to ask more of their politicians, and tell them they are not prepared to listen to scare mongering from either side. It is quite reprehensible that people are going to hospital fearing all sorts of things are going to happen because politicians have screamed about nothing.

Step forward Alex Cole - Hamilton, Miles Briggs et al.

[ronaldo7]

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By that do you mean SNP supporters? Or do you mean the Scottish electorate? If you mean the latter, then I'd beg to differ because in my view it's thanks to the main political parties 'listening' to the Scottish electorate that Scotland now has such a heavily devolved Scottish parliament. Also, the 2014 independence referendum was agreed to by a Tory government, which doesn't really smack of 'not listening' whether you happened to like the result or not.

As for Brexit, while a significant majority of Scottish voters may have voted remain (although the million plus who voted leave is not an insignificant minority) when the opportunity came in 2017 for the SNP to gain political mileage from that (ie crank up the calls for another independence referendum based on the fact that 'the people of Scotland' voted remain) the Scottish electorate ended up returning more Tory MPs than have been seen in Scotland since the 1970s while de-seating a hefty chunk of SNP MPs.

I agree Corbyn cut a particularly gormless figure in his tartan scarf last week, but what do you expect that main party leaders to do during an election campaign? Just not bother turning up in Scotland?

If the upcoming election turfs out most of those Tories who took up office in 2017, I'll look forward to your move towards our next independence referendum with glee. The people of Scotland will have spoken after all. 👍

[ronaldo7]

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Your post hardly backs up your criticism.

In what ways do you think it's ****?

It's a pity the forum doesn't have a tongue in cheek smiley.

😂

[Fife-Hibee]

Labour now copying the Lib Dem ploy in Scotland to mislead people with graphs that try to take us all for idiots.
https://www.thenational.scot/news/18...sWZdS1esWt5LeM

So much for the electoral commission.

[Cataplana]

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It's a pity the forum doesn't have a tongue in cheek smiley.

😂

I'm sure it's got a whoosh one, I just can't find it.