Catalunya

[Killiehibbie]

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Why do you think they took such a stupid measure? I agree it is never wise to create martyrs.

Looking to drive people to invite confrontation then they can claim to be keeping the peace.

[Cataplana]

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Looking to drive people to invite confrontation then they can claim to be keeping the peace.

I can see how that would work. Push the seperatists to a point where they lose public support, both within and outwith Catalonia.

[southsider]

Until, God forbid, the first protester dies then the sh@t will hit the fan.

[Cataplana]

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Until, God forbid, the first protester dies then the sh@t will hit the fan.

How is this being reported in the rest of Spain? Are they seen as trouble makers, or people with a legitimate grievance.

Certainly the BBC seem to be siding with the seperatists here.

[southsider]

I have been back in Scotland the past couple of months but friends have said that there is a lot, but not universal support in Andalusia but we have aspirations of further attomonny here.

[JeMeSouviens]

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Ok, I get it, doesn't matter what the issue is, whether it was the Civil War, or the Basques, Madrid makes a mess of it?

Need to read up on your Spanish civil war. The Republicans in Madrid held out against Franco’s siege for 2 and a half years. Obviously the dictatorship was run from there after that, but Madrid’s people suffered too and Franco had supporters in Catalonia.

Although the Spanish civil war and its aftermath are massively interlinked with the situation in Catalonia now, there’s a hell of a lot else going on.

[JeMeSouviens]

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How is this being reported in the rest of Spain? Are they seen as trouble makers, or people with a legitimate grievance.

Certainly the BBC seem to be siding with the seperatists here.

Outside the Basque country, Spaniards have a very low opinion of Catalan independentism and they are the subject of relentless negativity in the Spanish media.

[JeMeSouviens]

For context, check the lead stories in El Pais (roughly the Guardian equivalent).

https://elpais.com/elpais/inenglish.html

[Cataplana]

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For context, check the lead stories in El Pais (roughly the Guardian equivalent).

https://elpais.com/elpais/inenglish.html

Thanks. .

[Cataplana]

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I have been back in Scotland the past couple of months but friends have said that there is a lot, but not universal support in Andalusia but we have aspirations of further attomonny here.

My Portuguese tour guide told us when we went to Seville that Andalucia is the most autonomous region of Spain. What extra powers are being sought?

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Outside the Basque country, Spaniards have a very low opinion of Catalan independentism and they are the subject of relentless negativity in the Spanish media.

I wonder how much support there is within Catalonia, as there was only a 45% turnout at the referendum.

[cabbageandribs1875]

screenshot.3982.jpg


giving it laldy to the polis

https://www.facebook.com/groups/45fo...5764711904066/

[JeMeSouviens]

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My Portuguese tour guide told us when we went to Seville that Andalucia is the most autonomous region of Spain. What extra powers are being sought?



I wonder how much support there is within Catalonia, as there was only a 45% turnout at the referendum.

Polling has it about 50-50. The turnout was suppressed quite a bit by police seizures of ballot boxes which couldn't then be counted. Plus of course I'd imagine some voters might be put off by baton wielding police! It's hard to say what the polling would be like in the context of an agreed referendum.

[Cataplana]

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Polling has it about 50-50. The turnout was suppressed quite a bit by police seizures of ballot boxes which couldn't then be counted. Plus of course I'd imagine some voters might be put off by baton wielding police! It's hard to say what the polling would be like in the context of an agreed referendum.

I had considered those factors.

Missing ballot boxes, referendum, it's almost like I've heard about that happening elsewhere.

[Moulin Yarns]

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I had considered those factors.

Missing ballot boxes, referendum, it's almost like I've heard about that happening elsewhere.

Please enlighten us.

[Cataplana]

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screenshot.3982.jpg


giving it laldy to the polis

https://www.facebook.com/groups/45fo...5764711904066/

Did I spot congratulatory jazz hands, as an alternative to a round of applause there?

Vés-te'n, hen, vés-te'n.

[cabbageandribs1875]

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Did I spot congratulatory jazz hands, as an alternative to a round of applause there?

Vés-te'n, hen, vés-te'n.

en efecte

[Cataplana]

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en efecte

What's Catalan for LOL?

[cabbageandribs1875]

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What's Catalan for LOL?

Un munt de rialles








:)

[Cataplana]

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Un munt de rialles








:)

Stupid language as well. Seems like an Iberian version of Geordie.

[ronaldo7]

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Could you give me more information about what you mean about everything you say about Barcelona FC ? Political affiliations of who ? A few rich businessmen who want to be president or ordinary fans in Barcelona / rest of Catalonia / Spain /the world ? Within the Catalan community ? What about the Catalans who support their local teams in Gerona / Sabadell etc ? Or Espanyol supporters who support their local team rather than a multinational - one of most famous nationalist politicians Gabriel Rufian for example is an Espanyol fan .

You only have to do a search of Barcelona statements to see that the club are indeed a political animal. Only recently, they come out against the jailing of the independenistas.

They were one of over 4,000 signatories of the National agreement for the referendum, a group comprising political parties, and civil society organisations.

Moreover, the behind closed doors match in 2017 which had the word, democracia, emblazoned on the scoreboard during the whole match.

Mair power tae them.

[Slavers]

Some of the videos of police brutality are shocking makes you wonder if this is the future for the EU?

Independence movements crushed and police brutality brushed under the carpet.

[Hibrandenburg]

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Some of the videos of police brutality are shocking makes you wonder if this is the future for the EU?

Independence movements crushed and police brutality brushed under the carpet.

Think it's coming to a street near you soon but it's not perpetrated by the EU.

[IberianHibernian]

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I have been back in Scotland the past couple of months but friends have said that there is a lot, but not universal support in Andalusia but we have aspirations of further attomonny here.

Universal support in Andalusia for what ? Are you referring to Catalonia situation ? If so I would say Andalucians view Catalan situation with a mixture of sadness that a significant number of Catalans ( many of them with a lot of Andalucian blood ) want to leave Spain and boredom after years of listening to Catalans complaining about being " robbed by Spain " . Many Andalucians have relatives in Catalonia so are well aware of problems that non independence supporters put up with there . As for your comment about Andalusians having aspirations for more autonomy it surprises me to say the least . No party promotes more autonomy and El Partido Andalucista ( only party I`ve voted for here regularly ) disappeared a couple of years ago .

[southsider]

FC Barcelona have always been a pro- Catalan but have only given limited support. They issued a statement in support of the jailed men but did not demand their release, as they should have imho, done

[southsider]

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Universal support in Andalusia for what ? Are you referring to Catalonia situation ? If so I would say Andalucians view Catalan situation with a mixture of sadness that a significant number of Catalans ( many of them with a lot of Andalucian blood ) want to leave Spain and boredom after years of listening to Catalans complaining about being " robbed by Spain " . Many Andalucians have relatives in Catalonia so are well aware of problems that non independence supporters put up with there . As for your comment about Andalusians having aspirations for more autonomy it surprises me to say the least . No party promotes more autonomy and El Partido Andalucista ( only party I`ve voted for here regularly ) disappeared a couple of years ago .

ok I get what u say. Where do u live & for how long. We are trying to get Spanish residence to move permantly

[IberianHibernian]

Over 50 comments so far 2 of them by me and I have to say I just don`t recognise the Spain that most comments here are suggesting Spain is .
A few observations :
1. Recent demonstrations in Catalonia are supposed to be demonstrating against Spanish courts decisions to imprison some independence politicians . Not all the people on marches will support independence - most will but some will be Catalans who don`t support independence but oppose courts decision and others seem to be a mixture of anti system from various countries who join any protest going .
2. Decision to imprison politicians was taken by 7 independent judges not by politicians . The decision was based on attacks on the Spanish constitution which gives regions considerable autonomy ( Catalonia has more autonomy than Scotland for example even though Catalonia has never been an independent state ) but is designed to protect national unity too . The Spanish constitition is a copy of the German one and similar to the Italian , French and Austrian ones . I suspect Germany and France would never let any region get into a situation where any region could cause so many problems and would certainly act just as heavy handedly if problems arose .
3. Franco has nothing to do with present situation in Catalonia or anywhere else in Spain . As some have mentioned here already Franco had many supporters in Catalonia ( many of the independence supporting Catalan politicians are grandchildren of Franco supporters ) . Many foreign journalists ( particularly British ones ) like to bring Franco into Spanish politics and unfortunately his exhumation this week will be used by press and some unsrupulous politicians to mix him with Catalan situation .
4. Accusations of police brutality . Not entirely sure what images people in UK are seeing and after the illegal referendum in 2017 many images shown had been recorded several years before . Spanish police ( from all regions of Spain - within Spain Catalan police seem to have worst reputation ) seem to have a reputation with foreigners particularly football fans for not hanging back if provoced . All the news reports I`m seeing are mentioning the tremendous aggression of minority of demonstrators who are causing trouble and the tremendous job the police (Catalan regional police and national police forces ) are doing in terrible conditions . A lot of people reading this will have been on holiday in Spanish costas and islands and seen tourists acting like animals without great police repression .
5. In any country i find that people want to live well - safety being the first priority and politics is secondary . This week`s demonstrations have made thousands of decent people of varying or no political leaning suffer terribly . Old people terrified to go out , massive vandalism , dangerous fires near petrol stations etc etc . A lesson for Scottish nationalism - unilateral demand for independence would put movement back many years .

[goosano]

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Over 50 comments so far 2 of them by me and I have to say I just don`t recognise the Spain that most comments here are suggesting Spain is .
A few observations :
1. Recent demonstrations in Catalonia are supposed to be demonstrating against Spanish courts decisions to imprison some independence politicians . Not all the people on marches will support independence - most will but some will be Catalans who don`t support independence but oppose courts decision and others seem to be a mixture of anti system from various countries who join any protest going .
2. Decision to imprison politicians was taken by 7 independent judges not by politicians . The decision was based on attacks on the Spanish constitution which gives regions considerable autonomy ( Catalonia has more autonomy than Scotland for example even though Catalonia has never been an independent state ) but is designed to protect national unity too . The Spanish constitition is a copy of the German one and similar to the Italian , French and Austrian ones . I suspect Germany and France would never let any region get into a situation where any region could cause so many problems and would certainly act just as heavy handedly if problems arose .
3. Franco has nothing to do with present situation in Catalonia or anywhere else in Spain . As some have mentioned here already Franco had many supporters in Catalonia ( many of the independence supporting Catalan politicians are grandchildren of Franco supporters ) . Many foreign journalists ( particularly British ones ) like to bring Franco into Spanish politics and unfortunately his exhumation this week will be used by press and some unsrupulous politicians to mix him with Catalan situation .
4. Accusations of police brutality . Not entirely sure what images people in UK are seeing and after the illegal referendum in 2017 many images shown had been recorded several years before . Spanish police ( from all regions of Spain - within Spain Catalan police seem to have worst reputation ) seem to have a reputation with foreigners particularly football fans for not hanging back if provoced . All the news reports I`m seeing are mentioning the tremendous aggression of minority of demonstrators who are causing trouble and the tremendous job the police (Catalan regional police and national police forces ) are doing in terrible conditions . A lot of people reading this will have been on holiday in Spanish costas and islands and seen tourists acting like animals without great police repression .
5. In any country i find that people want to live well - safety being the first priority and politics is secondary . This week`s demonstrations have made thousands of decent people of varying or no political leaning suffer terribly . Old people terrified to go out , massive vandalism , dangerous fires near petrol stations etc etc . A lesson for Scottish nationalism - unilateral demand for independence would put movement back many years .

A good thoughtful post. I spend a lot of time in Spain speak Spanish pretty fluently and have a lot of friends in Barcelona. They are all horrified by what has gone on. Whilst the police have responded with brutality in some situations my friends tell me the level of provocation and violence towards the police with rocks, stones and petrol bombs has been extremely high from a significant minority of protestors. Whilst the jailed Catalan leaders have advocated peaceful protest the current leader Quim Torra, has regrettably been slow to condemn the violence.

Catalonia has its own police force, the Mossos d'Esquadra that has largely replaced the Guardia Civil and Policia Nacional so it is largely the local police force that is involved. Some reinforcements have been drafted in from Valencia, Zaragoza and Madrid to help. Incidentally the Spanish police are held in very high esteem by the majority of Spaniards and are consistently rated highly in polls of public satisfaction with public services. There is generally a lot of trust in them.

Franco saw Catalonia and the Basque country as threats and invested heavily in the regions building industry there. The logic was that if people had a decent standard of living and employment then independence would be less of a threat. Ironically this helped to make them 2 of the economic powerhouses of the country and they could both do well economically as independent countries.

As we know from situations like Northern Ireland this type of situation can only be settled by dialogue and concessions from both sides. Sadly both sides seem to be digging in their heels and the blame game is being played at present.

Spanish politics and history are both fascinating and complicated. Some time ago I read Ghosts of Spain, travelling through a country's hidden past by Giles Tremlett, the Guardian's Spanish correspondent. A fascinating book that gives much insight into Spain's past with many things I did not know or appreciate

[Cataplana]

Very interesting insights, thanks very much guys.

[southsider]

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Very interesting insights, thanks very much guys.

Aye, much appreciated and I will try to look for the book.

[Cataplana]

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Aye, much appreciated and I will try to look for the book.

Me too, there's a Kindle version.