Tories are lying *******s (warning may contain traces of Tory)

[Fife-Hibee]

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Looks like they already have.


https://twitter.com/fr4ser/status/11...934511616?s=09

How often have we seen that? They have a habit of scurrying off as soon as "scandal" is mentioned.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I'm still struggling to get my head around the UGOV poll of Conservative Party members. The Unionist party whose members will accept the break up of the Union for Brexit. The party which claims economic competence (nae laughing) willing to tank the economy for Brexit. And, most bizarrely of all, members of a party who are prepared to accept the destuction of the party they belong to, just as long as they get Brexit. These people are the only people who get to choose our next prime minister!

They have lost their minds and become a single issue cult. It's very like what's happened to U.S. Republicans with Trump.

[Fife-Hibee]

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I'm still struggling to get my head around the UGOV poll of Conservative Party members. The Unionist party whose members will accept the break up of the Union for Brexit. The party which claims economic competence (nae laughing) willing to tank the economy for Brexit. And, most bizarrely of all, members of a party who are prepared to accept the destuction of the party they belong to, just as long as they get Brexit. These people are the only people who get to choose our next prime minister!

They have lost their minds and become a single issue cult. It's very like what's happened to U.S. Republicans with Trump.

Why? The tories have always been an English nationalist party. Their "unionism" shtick is and always has been colonialism wrapped up as "political unity" to fool docile Scots, Welsh and Irishmen.

None of this should be a shock to anyone who has woken up to it over the years. Sadly, many still don't get it.

[Moulin Yarns]

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Why? The tories have always been an English nationalist party. Their "unionism" shtick is and always has been colonialism wrapped up as "political unity" to fool docile Scots, Welsh and Irishmen.

None of this should be a shock to anyone who has woken up to it over the years. Sadly, many still don't get it.

How do you explain the Conservatives winning most Westminster seats in Scotland before 1955?

[Fife-Hibee]

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How do you explain the Conservatives winning most Westminster seats in Scotland before 1955?

Because back then was a time when Scotland actually believed in the "unionist" nonsense being spouted by the tories. Just because most of Scotland fell for it back then, doesn't mean the rhetoric was anymore credible back then than it is today. People just didn't have access to anywhere near the level of information they have access to today. People were nowhere near as free thinking back then. Their thoughts and feelings were molded and shaped by what they were being spoonfed in the mainstream media.

We would probably still be making the same mistakes today, if technology hadn't advanced to the level that it has.

[Hibbyradge]

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Because back then was a time when Scotland actually believed in the "unionist" nonsense being spouted by the tories. Just because most of Scotland fell for it back then, doesn't mean the rhetoric was anymore credible back then than it is today. People just didn't have access to anywhere near the level of information they have access to today. People were nowhere near as free thinking back then. Their thoughts and feelings were molded and shaped by what they were being spoonfed in the mainstream media.

We would probably still be making the same mistakes today, if technology hadn't advanced to the level that it has.

Most people in Scotland believed enough in the Union 5 years ago to vote to stay in it.

Have there been big technological advances since then?

[marinello59]

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Because back then was a time when Scotland actually believed in the "unionist" nonsense being spouted by the tories. Just because most of Scotland fell for it back then, doesn't mean the rhetoric was anymore credible back then than it is today. People just didn't have access to anywhere near the level of information they have access to today. People were nowhere near as free thinking back then. Their thoughts and feelings were molded and shaped by what they were being spoonfed in the mainstream media.

We would probably still be making the same mistakes today, if technology hadn't advanced to the level that it has.

The constitution wasn’t the over riding issue then, people, including working class people , voted Tory for a variety of reasons. To suggest they were simply ill informed is ludicrous.
James Connolly left school in his very early teens yet went on to become a great political writer, no internet then. . There was a long tradition of self education amongst the working class all over the UK. Suggesting people were nowhere near as free thinking really is nonsense.

[jonty]

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Looks like they already have.


https://twitter.com/fr4ser/status/11...934511616?s=09

do we have a roll call (or rogues gallery) of who attended?

[Crunchie]

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Why? The tories have always been an English nationalist party. Their "unionism" shtick is and always has been colonialism wrapped up as "political unity" to fool docile Scots, Welsh and Irishmen.

None of this should be a shock to anyone who has woken up to it over the years. Sadly, many still don't get it.

I was a proud party member and voted for Independence, I was gutted when we lost.

I've since changed my mind and I'm glad we lost. I am now a proud Conservative and will be delighted when we leave the EU. I like many other former SNP members would rather be part of a United Kingdom than a EU that has more tiers than a posh wedding cake.

Rule Brittania.

[Fife-Hibee]

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I was a proud party member and voted for Independence, I was gutted when we lost.

I've since changed my mind and I'm glad we lost. I am now a proud Conservative and will be delighted when we leave the EU. I like many other former SNP members would rather be part of a United Kingdom than a EU that has more tiers than a posh wedding cake.

Rule Brittania.

The EU has 3 tiers of Government. The first tier are voted in by the general public of each country. The 2nd and 3rd tiers are voted in by those we elect in the 1st tier.

The UK also has 3 tiers of Government. The people we elect, the unelected House of Lords, followed by an unelected Head of State.

[Fife-Hibee]

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Most people in Scotland believed enough in the Union 5 years ago to vote to stay in it.

Have there been big technological advances since then?

You make it sound like there wasn't a huge shift towards independence during that time? The status quo may have won, but it was considerably more uncomfortable than they were expecting it to be. It prompted hundreds of thousands of people across Scotland to question the narrative they were being fed. That's why they never want to offer Scotland another one. Despite all of the mass propaganda they threw at us, the momentum continued to shift towards independence. (That wouldn't have been the case had it been held in the 50s)

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The constitution wasn’t the over riding issue then, people, including working class people , voted Tory for a variety of reasons. To suggest they were simply ill informed is ludicrous.
James Connolly left school in his very early teens yet went on to become a great political writer, no internet then. . There was a long tradition of self education amongst the working class all over the UK. Suggesting people were nowhere near as free thinking really is nonsense.

Self educated with what? The only material they had access to was the material that was provided. Sure, there were libraries with thousands of books. But the points of view on offer were severely limited. Where as the information available now is pretty much unlimited, which is why people question things a great deal more now than they did back then. People went with the program back then. MSM was a respectable trusted source of information. Compare that to now, where the trust ratings are at an all time low. Perceptions are being challenged like never before.

[Hibernia&Alba]

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I was a proud party member and voted for Independence, I was gutted when we lost.

I've since changed my mind and I'm glad we lost. I am now a proud Conservative and will be delighted when we leave the EU. I like many other former SNP members would rather be part of a United Kingdom than a EU that has more tiers than a posh wedding cake.

Rule Brittania.

Am I having a whoosh moment or is your post serious? In the space of a couple of years you went from being a card carrying SNP member to a Conservative and Unionist who wants out of the EU? That's some journey! What happened to make your views change so drastically?

[marinello59]

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Self educated with what? The only material they had access to was the material that was provided. Sure, there were libraries with thousands of books. But the points of view on offer were severely limited. Where as the information available now is pretty much unlimited, which is why people question things a great deal more now than they did back then. People went with the program back then. MSM was a respectable trusted source of information. Compare that to now, where the trust ratings are at an all time low. Perceptions are being challenged like never before.

If Donald trump rewrote history this is what it would look like.

[Hibrandenburg]

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Am I having a whoosh moment or is your post serious? In the space of a couple of years you went from being a card carrying SNP member to a Conservative and Unionist who wants out of the EU? That's some journey! What happened to make your views change so drastically?

Maybe the price was right?

[Fife-Hibee]

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If Donald trump rewrote history this is what it would look like.

Is that how you attempt to mute any point you don't agree with? Not by countering it with anything of your own, but by comparing it to Trump? You've done it a few times now. You seem rather obsessed over someone you claim not to be too fond of.

[degenerated]

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I asked before. He said he is, but I find it strange that someone with such strong opinions on certain subjects has absolutely nothing to say when it comes to Hibs.

Brigade 77 work in mysterious ways

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[marinello59]

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Is that how you attempt to mute any point you don't agree with? Not by countering it with anything of your own, but by comparing it to Trump? You've done it a few times now. You seem rather obsessed over someone you claim not to be too fond of.

I wouldn't say I was obsessed. He is an interesting character though don't you think? He constantly denounces everything in the MSM as fake news. Then when challenged to back up some of his more outlandish statements he totally fails to do so despite claiming to have some unique insight that the establishment lacks. You gotta love him.

Anyway your claim that prior to the internet that the population were ill informed just doesn't stack up. As you mentioned libraries were a wonderful resource. Are you dismissing political societies, the work down by trade unions to educate and motivate, the WEA. Pamphlets? Political journals etc . And lets not forget the education system itself in Scotland which until a generation or so ago was the envy of other countries.
There seems to be a trend now to dismiss absolutely everything in the so called MSM yet there is still a lot of fine investigative journalism and writing out there. Over the years there have been more than a few landmark documentaries and dramas that not only informed, they sparked action to be taken. I'll use 'Cathy come Home' as an example.
The internet has made getting information faster but if you think that prior to it's arrival the population as a whole were docilely accepting everything thrown at it as they were being kept in ignorance then I'll respectfully suggest you need to do a bit more research. You could do it on this new fangled internet thingy or how about visiting a library?

[Moulin Yarns]

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do we have a roll call (or rogues gallery) of who attended?

It will be somewhere, maybe Hansard or the Gov website? But it looks like there are more SNP MPs than all other parties put together from the photograph.

The proceedings are on Hansard, but it would take ages to go through it and get the names of those that spoke, and the sun is shining

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Common...4D/Immigration

[Moulin Yarns]

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Self educated with what? The only material they had access to was the material that was provided. Sure, there were libraries with thousands of books. But the points of view on offer were severely limited. Where as the information available now is pretty much unlimited, which is why people question things a great deal more now than they did back then. People went with the program back then. MSM was a respectable trusted source of information. Compare that to now, where the trust ratings are at an all time low. Perceptions are being challenged like never before.

You have to remember that Labour became the party of the people post WW2. I haven't looked at the timeline but prewar it was Liberal and Tories, the Labour Part first came to power in the 1920s, after the war Labour created the NHS and welfare state. What was not to like about Labour and the Tories had to reinvent themselves, like New Labour had to do under Blair

[The Modfather]

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I wouldn't say I was obsessed. He is an interesting character though don't you think? He constantly denounces everything in the MSM as fake news. Then when challenged to back up some of his more outlandish statements he totally fails to do so despite claiming to have some unique insight that the establishment lacks. You gotta love him.

Are you talking about Trunp or Fife Hibee here?

[Hibrandenburg]

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Are you talking about Trunp or Fife Hibee here?

Glad it wasn't just me.

[Hibbyradge]

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You make it sound like there wasn't a huge shift towards independence during that time? The status quo may have won, but it was considerably more uncomfortable than they were expecting it to be. It prompted hundreds of thousands of people across Scotland to question the narrative they were being fed. That's why they never want to offer Scotland another one. Despite all of the mass propaganda they threw at us, the momentum continued to shift towards independence. (That wouldn't have been the case had it been held in the 50s)

You were rejoicing that technological advances since the 1960s meant that Scotland didn't believe in the "Unionist nonsense" any more.

I merely pointed out that the last time Scotland was asked about it, 5 years ago, they did still believe in it.

I could have pointed out that the Tories vote in Scotland has been increasing recently too, but I didn't want to stress you out too much.

You make so much up that I think it's important to carry out the occasional Fife-Hibee fact check.

Happy to help.

[Hibbyradge]

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Self educated with what? The only material they had access to was the material that was provided. Sure, there were libraries with thousands of books. But the points of view on offer were severely limited. Where as the information available now is pretty much unlimited, which is why people question things a great deal more now than they did back then. People went with the program back then. MSM was a respectable trusted source of information. Compare that to now, where the trust ratings are at an all time low. Perceptions are being challenged like never before.

What are you slavering about?

The poor Scots were kept in the dark about politics and were denied access to books.

You forgot to mention that the bad Tories would rip out any pages that hinted that there might be another way.

What an absolute crock of imaginery, patronising crap.

Prior to the Conservatives winning in 1955, the Liberals dominated Scottish politics. However, we had red Clyde electing Labour MPs, communist MPs were elected, one in your own neck of the woods, and the Nationalist movement was starting to build.

The suggestion that Scots were too dim to know what choices there were is atrocious and you should be ashamed.

I expect, however, that instead of contrition, you'll double down on your insulting nonsense.

[Hibbyradge]

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If Donald trump rewrote history this is what it would look like.

Precisely.

Or Boris.

[Crunchie]

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Am I having a whoosh moment or is your post serious? In the space of a couple of years you went from being a card carrying SNP member to a Conservative and Unionist who wants out of the EU? That's some journey! What happened to make your views change so drastically?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...eral-election/

I was one of the yes/leave voters.

[Crunchie]

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The EU has 3 tiers of Government. The first tier are voted in by the general public of each country. The 2nd and 3rd tiers are voted in by those we elect in the 1st tier.

The UK also has 3 tiers of Government. The people we elect, the unelected House of Lords, followed by an unelected Head of State.

The House of Lords which I am totally against, is a body of people, not a single person wielding enormous power like Juncker and Tusk.

Our head of state I don't consider a tier of government, you'll probably argue differently though. Irrespective I am not, and never have been a fan of the EU, and the sooner we're out the better as far as I'm concerned.

I love the smileys btw

[Bristolhibby]

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I was a proud party member and voted for Independence, I was gutted when we lost.

I've since changed my mind and I'm glad we lost. I am now a proud Conservative and will be delighted when we leave the EU. I like many other former SNP members would rather be part of a United Kingdom than a EU that has more tiers than a posh wedding cake.

Rule Brittania.

A yes voting Tory. Were you, Aye?

J

[Bristolhibby]

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Am I having a whoosh moment or is your post serious? In the space of a couple of years you went from being a card carrying SNP member to a Conservative and Unionist who wants out of the EU? That's some journey! What happened to make your views change so drastically?

I think he’s saying he was a Yes voting Tory. A rare breed indeed.

Or maybe he isn’t.

J

[Hibrandenburg]

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It is crazy how nationalists switch from criticising their opponents for portraying the Scottish people as weak and malleable, then choose to describe the Scottish people as weak and malleable themselves.

The point about sectarianism was touched upon in other posts relating to racism. I think it is irrefutable that these fractures often arise, and this is the case around the world, when there is extensive immigration or the perception of extensive immigration by people who can be portrayed as ‘other’ or ‘different’.

Some people will automatically be threatened by that, which is tragic but doesn’t make it any less true. More sinisterly, some people will manipulate that fear to strengthen their own position or status. That happens at every level and isn’t some remote, dastardly plot by ‘London’., whatever that means.

As for sectarianism in the south of Ireland, the proportion of Protestants is so small that it is impossible to create a narrative around existential threat, it would be ludicrous. There’s a bunch of other factors but that is probably the biggest and crudest one.

I do agree with you to an extent in terms of Britain’s colonial history. Clear evidence of a policy and practice of ‘divide and conquer’ in far-flung lands. And of course that classic Yes Minister sketch about Britain’s role in Europe

Scotland isn't just black and white, there's lots of grey in there too especially regarding our identity. We've fought wars because we identify ourselves differently. That's been a constant throughout our history and although the need to batter each other has subsided somewhat, the passion is still a dividing factor. Our identity is full of paradoxes like any other country that has an near 50/50 divide in opinion about who or what we really are. You see Scotland as an integral part of the UK that gets fair treatment from a parliament it helps elect, I think we're a second thought in the Westminster decision making process and could do better if Scotland had full control over it's own affairs.

London has used divide and conquer policy world wide for centuries and to assume that Scotland is somehow the exception is pretty naive but I don't think you really believe that yourself.

[JeMeSouviens]

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The House of Lords which I am totally against, is a body of people, not a single person wielding enormous power like Juncker and Tusk.

Our head of state I don't consider a tier of government, you'll probably argue differently though. Irrespective I am not, and never have been a fan of the EU, and the sooner we're out the better as far as I'm concerned.

I love the smileys btw

Juncker and Tusk don't wield enormous power. They are influential, yes, but in reality they are constrained by the members of the European Council, ie. the heads of govt in the member states.