Tories are lying *******s (warning may contain traces of Tory)

[James310]

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What’s the SNPs path got to do with anything? What is it with unionists and this idea that an independent Scotland somehow equates to an SNP Scotland? An independent Scotland may well reject the SNP vision. Independence gives us the power to do that.

It’s terrifying just how many people in Scotland have bought into the “independence = SNP = bad” narrative in the British MSM.

Try actually thinking for a change.

Because that's the policy and path that is in front of us today, I don't see an alternative.

It's legitimate to question what is in front of you, not a policy that does not exist.

[Fife-Hibee]

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Because that's the policy and path that is in front of us today, I don't see an alternative.

It's legitimate to question what is in front of you, not a policy that does not exist.

Of course you don’t see an alternative. Parties that don’t openly support independence are hardly going to go public about any plans they may have in the event that it does happen. But I’d hazard a bet that even the tories in Scotland have some plan tucked away, just incase. They just aren’t going to mention them right now as it doesn’t suit their narrative that an independent Scotland is somehow economically impossible.

[James310]

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Of course you don’t see an alternative. Parties that don’t openly support independence are hardly going to go public about any plans they may have in the event that it does happen. But I’d hazard a bet that even the tories in Scotland have some plan tucked away, just incase. They just aren’t going to mention them right now as it doesn’t suit their narrative that an independent Scotland is somehow economically impossible.

So you have a go at me for not considering the alternative plans, the ones that you tell me nobody has seen. Not sure you thought that one through.

[Fife-Hibee]

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So you have a go at me for not considering the alternative plans, the ones that you tell me nobody has seen. Not sure you thought that one through.

You’re missing the point entirely. Any alternative plans are being hushed up by the parties that hold them. It’s not that there aren’t alternative plans, they just want people like you to believe that there aren’t any alternatives and you’re falling for it, just as they intended.

[James310]

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You’re missing the point entirely. Any alternative plans are being hushed up by the parties that hold them. It’s not that there aren’t alternative plans, they just want people like you to believe that there aren’t any alternatives and you’re falling for it, just as they intended.

Do you have proof of these plans being hushed up?

[ronaldo7]

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Ok, I was wrong in that one aspect. But Slovakias path is nothing like the path Scotland has chosen. I have laid out the path the SNP have chosen, let's focus on that.

Now can you answer the questions? No emojis allowed.

We have some people's assemblies coming up, I wouldn't want to prejudice the ideas and hope that'll come from that. I'll leave you to your own devices, of divided and conquer which you've been schooled at, and see the Indy movement prosper, whilst the union withers on the vine.

Have a Guid day.

[James310]

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We have some people's assemblies coming up, I wouldn't want to prejudice the ideas and hope that'll come from that. I'll leave you to your own devices, of divided and conquer which you've been schooled at, and see the Indy movement prosper, whilst the union withers on the vine.

Have a Guid day.

As expected, minus the emojis.

Have a good day.

[Fife-Hibee]

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Do you have proof of these plans being hushed up?

If I had proof, don’t you think I’d be sharing those plans with everyone? There’s obviously not going to be any proof until after independence is achieved when the parties start sticking their economic policies on the table.

You only have to apply common sense though. It would be absolutely mental for them not to have plans of their own in the very likely event of independence in the near future.

[Sylar]

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When you give me the answer of how, Slovakia, and the Czech Republic had nothing to do with each other politically, which you've said, we can maybe move on. Considering they shared an area of land with each other for some time, I'd be interested how they could have avoided each other for so long.

The Velvet divorce is one you should read up on. It will eventually take you to an actual country being set up, with a currency in a number of weeks.

The trouble is, you don't want to hear of these things which "actually occurred", it doesn't suit your narrative of, it's too hard.

At least you're on the correct thread today. Tories are lying *******s, traces of tory, with a hint of lib Dem.

I'm off to work now, so I'll leave you to your morning read of the daily heil, and torygraph.

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We have some people's assemblies coming up, I wouldn't want to prejudice the ideas and hope that'll come from that. I'll leave you to your own devices, of divided and conquer which you've been schooled at, and see the Indy movement prosper, whilst the union withers on the vine.

Have a Guid day.

Winning hearts and minds I see, Ron?

[The Modfather]

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The facts are that chapter 17 of the Maastricht treaty which deals with monetary policy state any country wanting to join the EU must have a fully independently run central bank.

The facts are while we are Sterlingised we will not have a central bank. So we will not be joining the EU while we have Sterling. So for however long we use Sterling we will not be joining the EU, that is clear.


So the further facts are that to get our own currency which requires a central bank we need to pass the following 6 tests. This is SNP policy.

1) Fiscal sustainability: Has the Scottish Government sustainably secured its fiscal policy objectives and sufficiently strong and credible fiscal position, in relation to budget deficit and overall debt level?

2) Central Bank credibility and stability of debt issuance: Has the Scottish Central Bank and Government framework established sufficient international and market credibility evidenced by the price and the stability of the price of its debt issuance?

3) Financial requirements of Scottish residents and businesses: Would a separate currency meet the on-going needs of Scottish residents and businesses for stability and continuity of their financial arrangements and command wide support?

4) Sufficiency of foreign exchange and financial reserves: Does Scotland have sufficient reserves to allow currency management?

5) Fit to trade and investment patterns: Would the new arrangement better reflect Scotland’s new and developing trading or investment patterns?

6) Correlation of economic and trade cycle: Is the economic cycle in Scotland significantly out of phase with that of the rest of the UK, or at least as well correlated with the cycles of other trading and investment partners, thus making an independent monetary policy feasible and desirable?


Now the question was how long will it take Scotland to join the EU, many on here seem to think it will be a few years and relatively easy.

On what basis is that assumption founded when you look at the facts? You can quote Slovakia or whatever but the facts are above, that is the path that the SNP have chosen. So let's stick to that path, not the path that other countries have taken as the circumstances are different.

So based on the facts above, my opinion is Scotland will be out the EU for a long time. Why? Because we will have Sterling for an undetermined period of time, and the 6 tests are almost impossible to meet over the short to medium term. We are talking long term here, not within a few years.

Now I have taken the time to fully explain my reasons, does anyone want to tell me in the same details why it's wrong? Or does it all happen behind the scenes and computers and stuff will sort it out.

None of us know what the currency will be in an independent Scotland. You have focussed solely on us keeping the pound and the EU pitfalls of that. Fair enough, can you also give us the same detailed analysis for each currency option and the pros and cons of that currency in relation to joining the EU?

You’ve been given a recent example of Slovakia leaving a union and setting up their own currency in a couple of months. You counter that by saying Scotland’s example is somehow different, it’s only different because it doesn’t suit your narrative. You’ve also been given the example of Finland joining the EU. These are examples of setting up currencies, and also joining the EU, how well do they relate to Scotland? I don’t know as I don’t know what currency we will choose or even who will be in power in an independent Scotland. You choose to focus’s on keeping the pound as it presents the most negative scope for you to latch onto, I never hear you talk about any other scenarios.

That’s why I said the real debate is the reasons to stay in the union v becoming independent, not (some would say deliberately) get bogged in the detail of specific scenarios when there are lots of different scenarios that could happen. Doing that bores me into submission and I’m likely to give up reading the “debate”. Talk about the pros of staying in the union and why that’s the best path is something I’d be more interested in reading and a persuasive argument that may convince me. That goes for Fife Hibee too and simply making stuff up like the majority of no voters being anti Scotland racists to suit his agenda.

[James310]

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None of us know what the currency will be in an independent Scotland. You have focussed solely on us keeping the pound and the EU pitfalls of that. Fair enough, can you also give us the same detailed analysis for each currency option and the pros and cons of that currency in relation to joining the EU?

You’ve been given a recent example of Slovakia leaving a union and setting up their own currency in a couple of months. You counter that by saying Scotland’s example is somehow different, it’s only different because it doesn’t suit your narrative. You’ve also been given the example of Finland joining the EU. These are examples of setting up currencies, and also joining the EU, how well do they relate to Scotland? I don’t know as I don’t know what currency we will choose or even who will be in power in an independent Scotland. You choose to focus’s on keeping the pound as it presents the most negative scope for you to latch onto, I never hear you talk about any other scenarios.

That’s why I said the real debate is the reasons to stay in the union v becoming independent, not (some would say deliberately) get bogged in the detail of specific scenarios when there are lots of different scenarios that could happen. Doing that bores me into submission and I’m likely to give up reading the “debate”. Talk about the pros of staying in the union and why that’s the best path is something I’d be more interested in reading and a persuasive argument that may convince me. That goes for Fife Hibee too and simply making stuff up like the majority of no voters being anti Scotland racists to suit his agenda.

I talk about the scenario that is the current policy of the Scottish Government, that's the path they want to follow. The other countries chose a different path, I will focus on the path that is presented in the Sustainable Growth Commission report as that is now policy and the path we will take if there ever is a Yes vote.

It's not my job to sell other options, I am not the one proposing significant changes. It's my 'job' to oppose what is being suggested with reasons why.

[Hibrandenburg]

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You can put your fingers in your ears and pretend it will all be fine if you like, your just like Boris Johnson and Dominic Raab...it will be fine, we are Scotland so it will all be fine. Don't worry about the details, it will all be fine.

Do you want to take a stab at telling us how long we will be sterlingised, and then how long the 6 tests will take? Go on, give it a go.

There is no timeline regarding how long Scotland would be sterlingised as you put it. Scotland uses Sterling at present but intends to move to it's own currency when and IF the time is right. That's what the six tests guidelines are about and they're just that, guidelines. I personally think it's dexterous to have a roadmap for what currency Scotland MIGHT use after independence. The tests are a sensible guideline for making the transition but are not set in stone like you seem to believe and rightly so. Economics is by it's nature dynamic and any sensible economic plan needs to remain flexible.

[Hibrandenburg]

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The only people who say that are people like you essentially.

You want to create this false narrative that no one else is even suggesting.

I guess trying to create resentment by using the language you do makes up for a vacuum of any rational arguments to make your case.

The narrative in the last Indy Ref was as clear as day. There was a constant bombardment telling us we would crash and burn if we voted yes. The narrative was one of how dependant we are on the UK because we couldn't cut it alone. Of course there were also conciliatory voices but they were few and far between, especially within the no campaign within Scotland itself, some even going as far as saying "we're not genetically programmed to make political decisions". I know you don't like that statement but it sums up the no campaign back then quite nicely.

[ronaldo7]

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Winning hearts and minds I see, Ron?

I've put, John, James, and Janet down to a hard, No. He's not actually worth the time. Lots more pensioners oot there to convince.

Maybe when they see how they're treated with pensions and TV licences... Well you never know eh. 😏

[Hibrandenburg]

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”..The teat of Westminster”, really? That’s just silly.

Not if you take it in the satirical context I meant it. I'm tired of hearing how we Scots (and I am Scottish no matter what you might think) are "subsidy junkies".

[Hibrandenburg]

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Also not sure whether to question what ‘our best interest’ means when I actually live in Scotland and you don’t . What claim have you to use the word “Our”?

Especially when a clear majority rejected the referendum result you wanted, admittedly much to your chagrin and wrath in the aftermath.

This remark disappoints me MA, you're better than that. I was born in Scotland, grew up there, I'm influenced by the people, history, culture and education I received there as well as having family, friends and financial and social connections there. I also have the right as an EU citizen to cast my vote there in EU elections. To somehow suggest I fail some kind of reverse "Norman Tebbit" nationality test is beneath you. You can take the laddie out of Scotland.........

Would you also promote the idea that foreign citizens living in the UK should cut ties with their heritage or does it only apply to Scots living abroad?

[Ozyhibby]

Same unionist voices on every thread with the same arguments.
Tory leadership race is more interesting and I’m sure there are other threads for this chat.


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[James310]

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There is no timeline regarding how long Scotland would be sterlingised as you put it. Scotland uses Sterling at present but intends to move to it's own currency when and IF the time is right. That's what the six tests guidelines are about and they're just that, guidelines. I personally think it's dexterous to have a roadmap for what currency Scotland MIGHT use after independence. The tests are a sensible guideline for making the transition but are not set in stone like you seem to believe and rightly so. Economics is by it's nature dynamic and any sensible economic plan needs to remain flexible.

So in the context of the question how long will it take Scotland to rejoin the EU you have no answer and no firm timelines. So you agree the assumption 'quickly' that was put forward was without basis and based on nothing at all other than a wild guess.

So next time someone suggests Scotland will quickly join the EU we can see that is not the case at all.

[James310]

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Same unionist voices on every thread with the same arguments.
Tory leadership race is more interesting and I’m sure there are other threads for this chat.


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Same nationalists as well, with no answers and nothing to back up their points.

[Hibrandenburg]

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So in the context of the question how long will it take Scotland to rejoin the EU you have no answer and no firm timelines. So you agree the assumption 'quickly' that was put forward was without basis and based on nothing at all other than a wild guess.

So next time someone suggests Scotland will quickly join the EU we can see that is not the case at all.

You've already had the currency question explained on numerous occasions, if you don't want to understand then that's your problem. Scotland joining the EU will be a formality, any adjustments that might be needed will be minimal, why should Scotland's integration be impossible when every other member has managed to adjust? Too wee, stupid, poor, dependent..............?

[Ozyhibby]

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Same nationalists as well, with no answers and nothing to back up their points.

Maybe you could look for a thread to chat about it or start one yourself?


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[Mr Grieves]

I listen to BBC 5 live at work and there seems to be a constant stream of tory MPs backing BJ in the leadership contest, that are having to defend him under some robust questioning.

Johnny Mercer was ripped earlier about how many kids BJ has (the answer is somewhere between 4 and 7), Liz Truss last week about the racism and homophobia etc, all the while BJ is in hiding. Mental.

[Fife-Hibee]

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Same nationalists as well, with no answers and nothing to back up their points.

How about asking questions that can realistically be answered at this stage. Instead of the Scottish Tory tactic of demanding absolute answers right now regarding matters that are clearly too volatile to realistically give absolute answers to?

[SHODAN]

What are they going to do when he becomes PM, just lock him in number 10 and have all his communications come out via a surrogate?

Maybe they should come to the realisation that if a man can't be trusted to keep his mouth shut, he shouldn't be running a country?

[Ozyhibby]

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I listen to BBC 5 live at work and there seems to be a constant stream of tory MPs backing BJ in the leadership contest, that are having to defend him under some robust questioning.

Johnny Mercer was ripped earlier about how many kids BJ has (the answer is somewhere between 4 and 7), Liz Truss last week about the racism and homophobia etc, all the while BJ is in hiding. Mental.

The BBC are giving him a free ride by allowing him to send along surrogates. If he won’t appear himself then they should move on to other candidates.


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[Moulin Yarns]

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What are they going to do when he becomes PM, just lock him in number 10 and have all his communications come out via a surrogate?

Maybe they should come to the realisation that if a man can't be trusted to keep his mouth shut, he shouldn't be running a country?

That seems to be close to what someone suggested on here. Something about Johnson being chairman in the amount of effect he will have.

[James310]

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You've already had the currency question explained on numerous occasions, if you don't want to understand then that's your problem. Scotland joining the EU will be a formality, any adjustments that might be needed will be minimal, why should Scotland's integration be impossible when every other member has managed to adjust? Too wee, stupid, poor, dependent..............?

Explained by who, not you. Full of opinions dressed up as facts, with little substance.

[ronaldo7]

David Mundell, the "Scottish" secretary of state, has decided to support, Michael Gove in his efforts to become PM. The same, Michael Gove, who stole £160million from Scottish farmers.

That's the Tories for you.

[StevieC]

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Explained by who, not you. Full of opinions dressed up as facts, with little substance.

Let’s be honest, most posts on here are going to be opinions (including yours).

You are doing exactly what was done at the 2014 referendum. Throw out enough unanswerable questions, and create enough doubt, you’ll sway enough people to run with the status quo.

Currency is not an insurmountable issue. It was used as a major weapon in 2014, and then Mark Carney stated afterwards that the currency wouldn’t have been an issue, it just needed negotiated by the two parties.

Currency is not a game changer here either, just needs negotiation and willingness on both sides (which there is) to make it work.

[Fife-Hibee]

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Explained by who, not you. Full of opinions dressed up as facts, with little substance.

That’s exactly what you’re doing. “We can’t do this and we can’t do that”. Yet all you have backing you up are the Tory party and their pals in the British media. While the rest of Europe is saying something totally different.