The EU Referendum (How did you vote?)

[Hibbyradge]

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So you're saying it's all a lie then and that Labour didn't turn down the opportunity to remain in Government? Despite it being pointed out to you multiple times?

You know fine what happened.

The SNP wanted Maggie. Fact.

[Fife-Hibee]

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It's a lie that Labour refused the pairing arrangement. It was much more complex than that and if it hadn't been the SNPs desire to see Thatcher in power, it would never have been required.

Not complex at all. Bernard Weatherill was prepared to abstain on the vote and Labour turned the offer down. Perhaps the SNP putting in a vote against the Callaghan ministry was all very complicated?

[Hibbyradge]

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We do very well as part of the UK however we'd be a minnow compared to the big fish Germany and France as an 'independent' nation within the EU. I'm very surprised that anyone would be so naive to think otherwise and lacks credibility in my opinion.

We'd be a minnow with exactly the same power within the EU as every other country.

As you well know.

[Fife-Hibee]

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You know fine what happened.

The SNP wanted Maggie. Fact.

As did Labour and i'm putting FACT in my post also to emphasis how unquestionably true it is.

[Hibbyradge]

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Not complex at all. Bernard Weatherill was prepared to abstain on the vote and Labour turned the offer down. Perhaps the SNP putting in a vote against the Callaghan ministry was all very complicated?

It was the SNPs fault that there was a vote. They wanted Thatcher in power.

Tartan Tories.

[Hibbyradge]

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As did Labour and i'm putting FACT in my post also to emphasis how unquestionably true it is.

Labour wanted Thatcher.

That's the stupidest thing you've said and you've said some crazy stuff.

Fact.

[Fife-Hibee]

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It was the SNPs fault that there was a vote. They wanted Thatcher in power.

Tartan Tories.

So you're not denying that Labour turned down the opportunity to remain in Government?

I wonder why ..... it's almost as if, they didn't want to be the party in charge of a failing economy.

[Hibbyradge]

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So you're not denying that Labour turned down the opportunity to remain in Government?

I wonder why ..... it's almost as if, they didn't want to be the party in charge of a failing economy.

Oh please.

Labour did not turn down anything.

One individual made a poor political decision, albeit arguably a morally sound one. A decision which was unknown to his Party and which was only revealed many years later.

The vote had not yet taken place and Labour could still have survived, so suggesting that they turned down the opportunity to remain in power is ridiculous. Student politics at its worst.

The fact remains, that the Tartan Tories voted with the English Tories to get Labour out of office and Thatcher in.

[Fife-Hibee]

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Oh please.

Labour did not turn down anything.

One individual made a poor political decision, albeit arguably a morally sound one. A decision which was unknown to his Party and which was only revealed many years later.

The vote had not yet taken place and Labour could still have survived, so suggesting that they turned down the opportunity to remain in power is ridiculous. Student politics at its worst.

The fact remains, that the Tartan Tories voted with the English Tories to get Labour out of office and Thatcher in.

The "tartan tories" that are so tory that they want independence for Scotland? and Labour (who are SO untory like) that they backpedaled on devolution by illegally changing the rules of an on going referendum because they didn't like the way it was going?

I think we all know who the real tories are and were. There's a reason Labour are an after thought in Scotland. They've been found out big time.

[The Harp Awakes]

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What was the question again?

iirc - Do you agree that Scotland should be an independent country?

Zero relating to being in or out of the EU or any other irrelevant matter. Both campaigns would have made many claims and counter claims of equally both truth and nonsense.

But hey once again don't let the truth get in the way of desperate nat fantasy which is indeed pure comedy gold

Brexit is a material difference and a gamechanger which is why indyref2 is back on the agenda. In the 2016 Holyrood elections the SNP campaigned on a platform of introducing indyref2 if Scotland was taken out of the EU against its will, and was returned to Government on that basis. Fast forward 3 years and here we are on the verge of Scotland being taken out of the EU despite voting resoundingly to stay in. 2 weeks ago the SNP wiped out the opposition in the Euro elections in a clear show of support by the electorate.

So indyref2 is back on the political agenda because the Scottish electorate as a whole want it to be. If they didn't, they had the option to defeat the SNP at the 2016 Holyrood and the 2019 EU elections.

[G B Young]

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Oh please.

Labour did not turn down anything.

One individual made a poor political decision, albeit arguably a morally sound one. A decision which was unknown to his Party and which was only revealed many years later.

The vote had not yet taken place and Labour could still have survived, so suggesting that they turned down the opportunity to remain in power is ridiculous. Student politics at its worst.

The fact remains, that the Tartan Tories voted with the English Tories to get Labour out of office and Thatcher in.

That is the crux of the matter. The pact between Weatherill and Harrison remained known only to the pair of them for the rest of their days, on the agreement that it would only come to light after one of them had died. It was just a few years back that the story became publicly known so as you say it was never cited at the time as a reason Labour failed to stay in power. I'm not sure you'd see such honour among bitter political rivals today. That Weatherill was prepared to put his political career on the line so that Labour didn't have to haul a dying MP down to Westminster says a lot about his moral fibre - while Harrison's gesture in releasing Weatherill from the pairing agreement was also a most admirable one.

Rather than try to airbrush the fact they helped the Tories into power I'm unclear why the SNP don't simply tell is as it was ie they were so hacked off with Labour denying them devolution that they saw voting with the Tories as a preferable option.

[Hibbyradge]

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The "tartan tories" that are so tory that they want independence for Scotland? and Labour (who are SO untory like) that they backpedaled on devolution by illegally changing the rules of an on going referendum because they didn't like the way it was going?

I think we all know who the real tories are and were. There's a reason Labour are an after thought in Scotland. They've been found out big time.

The SNP earned the Tartan Tories moniker because they were responsible for putting Thatcher in power.

If you remember, this discussion started because someone said that what the Liberals did in 2010 was unforgivable.

I pointed out that it wasn't hard to forgive political parties given that most people have forgiven the SNP.

They've worked hard for decades to rid themselves of that reputation and they've succeeded.

[Hibbyradge]

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That is the crux of the matter. The pact between Weatherill and Harrison remained known only to the pair of them for the rest of their days, on the agreement that it would only come to light after one of them had died. It was just a few years back that the story became publicly known so as you say it was never cited at the time as a reason Labour failed to stay in power. I'm not sure you'd see such honour among bitter political rivals today. That Weatherill was prepared to put his political career on the line so that Labour didn't have to haul a dying MP down to Westminster says a lot about his moral fibre - while Harrison's gesture in releasing Weatherill from the pairing agreement was also a most admirable one.

Rather than try to airbrush the fact they helped the Tories into power I'm unclear why the SNP don't simply tell is as it was ie they were so hacked off with Labour denying them devolution that they saw voting with the Tories as a preferable option.

Great post. Spot on.

[Fife-Hibee]

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The SNP earned the Tartan Tories moniker because they were responsible for putting Thatcher in power.

If you remember, this discussion started because someone said that what the Liberals did in 2010 was unforgivable.

I pointed out that it wasn't hard to forgive political parties given that most people have forgiven the SNP.

They've worked hard for decades to rid themselves of that reputation and they've succeeded.

Fair enough. Although the SNP wouldn't have required my forgiveness. I understand entirely why they did what they did and although Thatcher was an unfortunate side effect (with Labours help) I don't bemoan the SNP for taking the action they did at the time.

[Hibrandenburg]

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The international money markets and speculative investors will decide how much any newly formed newly named standalone Scottish currency was worth set against the big currencies such as the Dollar and UK pound etc.

Any new currency will inevitably fluctuate up or down until finally settling down. My money would be on the new currency being worth considerably less than the current UK Pound level.

In my opinion.

We were talking about visitors to Scotland. Try and stay on subject for a minute or two. You're all over the place.

[Hibbyradge]

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Fair enough. Although the SNP wouldn't have required my forgiveness. I understand entirely why they did what they did and although Thatcher was an unfortunate side effect (with Labours help) I don't bemoan the SNP for taking the action they did at the time.

Wow.

Thatcher was an unfortunate side effect!

They were responsible for getting Thatcher into power, they ruined their own reputation, and lost 80% of their MPs because of it, and you're fine with that.

Normally if negative side effects are a price worth paying, there's a much bigger positive gain.

What was that?

[Fife-Hibee]

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Wow.

Thatcher was an unfortunate side effect!

They were responsible for getting Thatcher into power, they ruined their own reputation, and lost 80% of their MPs because of it, and you're fine with that.

Normally if negative side effects are a price worth paying, there's a much bigger positive gain.

What was that?

2 points.

1) If Labour hadn't back stabbed on devolution, they wouldn't have lost a vote of no confidence (despite their failures and unpopularity at the time).
2) If Labour hadn't back stabbed on devolution, then Thatchers reign wouldn't have hurt Scotland nearly as much if she had still got into power somehow.

I think it's very convenient for you to focus soley on the SNPs actions while ignoring the entire picture of what was going on at the time.

[Hibbyradge]

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2 points.

1) If Labour hadn't back stabbed on devolution, they wouldn't have lost a vote of no confidence (despite their failures and unpopularity at the time).
2) If Labour hadn't back stabbed on devolution, then Thatchers reign wouldn't have hurt Scotland nearly as much if she had still got into power somehow.

I think it's very convenient for you to focus soley on the SNPs actions while ignoring the entire picture of what was going on at the time.

What was the gain, if Thatcher was an acceptable side effect?

Please answer.

[Fife-Hibee]

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What was the gain, if Thatcher was an acceptable side effect?

Please answer.

Where did I mention "gain"?

Thatchers reign was horrific. But there was never any solid guarantee that those years would have faired much better, if any, under the Callaghan ministry. It wasn't just a lack of confidence from other parties (including their failed pact with the Liberal Party) he was up against, it was a lack of confidence from the public as well (including the numerous public sector strikes during the winter of discontent).

One way or another the government was going to fall. Deny it all you like. But the history speaks for itself.

[Ozyhibby]

Has anybody considered the fact that the Labour govt could not keep the lights on, had rubbish piling up in the streets, bodies not being buried, no petrol in the petrol stations and had to be bailed out by the IMF as factors that may have brought in Margaret Thatcher?
Blaming the SNP, Liberals, DUP etc is idiotic in the extreme.
And the Tories stayed in for 17 years so not everyone was unhappy.


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[Hibbyradge]

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Where did I mention "gain"?

Thatchers reign was horrific. But there was never any solid guarantee that those years would have faired much better, if any, under the Callaghan ministry. It wasn't just a lack of confidence from other parties (including their failed pact with the Liberal Party) he was up against, it was a lack of confidence from the public as well (including the numerous public sector strikes during the winter of discontent).

One way or another the government was going to fall. Deny it all you like. But the history speaks for itself.

You said that Thatcher was an unfortunate side effect.

A side effect is something that comes with a positive.

What was the positive of the SNP voting with the Tories that you understood and are were happy with?

[Hibbyradge]

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Has anybody considered the fact that the Labour govt could not keep the lights on, had rubbish piling up in the streets, bodies not being buried, no petrol in the petrol stations and had to be bailed out by the IMF as factors that may have brought in Margaret Thatcher?
Blaming the SNP, Liberals, DUP etc is idiotic in the extreme.
And the Tories stayed in for 17 years so not everyone was unhappy.


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The Labour government was doing badly, for sure, but the SNP wanted Thatcher in.

No-one knows what would have happened if Labour hadn't been subjected to that vote of confidence.

We do know what Thatcher did. But it was just an unfortunate side effect!

[Fife-Hibee]

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You said that Thatcher was an unfortunate side effect.

A side effect is something that comes with a positive.

What was that positive of the SNP voting with the Tories that you understood and are were happy with?

The positive being that Scotland wouldn't be jerked around by any political party. Including Labour who had a strong sense of entitlement over the Scottish electorate.

Labour had nobody to blame but themselves. They assumed they could treat Scotland however they liked and could still rely on Scottish votes and parties to save their governments.

They thought they could bluff with the SNP and the SNP called that bluff.

[Hibbyradge]

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The positive being that Scotland wouldn't be jerked around by any political party. Including Labour who had a strong sense of entitlement over the Scottish electorate.

Labour had nobody to blame but themselves. They assumed they could treat Scotland however they liked and could still rely on Scottish votes and parties to save their governments.

They thought they could bluff with the SNP and the SNP called that bluff.

That's a beaut!

Scotland wasn't just jerked around by Thatcher, it was totally shafted. Just so the SNP could get some petty, spiteful and self defeating revenge on Labour.

Labour continued to count on Scotland for votes for decades after the SNP had sabotaged themselves!

Labour won 44 out of the 71 seats in 1979. Up from 41. The Tartan Tories went down from 11 to 2.

And it continued until 5 years ago.

1983; Lab 41 SNP 2

1987 Lab 50 SNP 3

1992 Lab 49 SNP 3

1997 Lab 56 SNP 6

2001 Lab 56 SNP 5

And so on.

That sure showed Labour.

You're not trying to suggest that the SNPs 2015 success was because they helped Thatcher get into power in 1979, are you?

[lord bunberry]

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Oh yes, and for the record I have also critisised the SNP and Greens, but it's probably been missed.

Exactly it’s not a football team we’re voting for. I’ve voted SNP all my life, but I’ll criticise them if they do something I don’t agree with. I think they’ve been dreadful in running Edinburgh council.

[lord bunberry]

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The SNP earned the Tartan Tories moniker because they were responsible for putting Thatcher in power.

If you remember, this discussion started because someone said that what the Liberals did in 2010 was unforgivable.

I pointed out that it wasn't hard to forgive political parties given that most people have forgiven the SNP.

They've worked hard for decades to rid themselves of that reputation and they've succeeded.

Thatcher was going to win the next election no matter what the SNP did. The actions of the SNP only brought the inevitable forward by a few months. The labour government at the time was a complete disaster and had completely betrayed the people of Scotland. Labour brought in Thatcher through incompetence and infighting.

[Hibbyradge]

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Exactly it’s not a football team we’re voting for.

I couldn't agree more.

The "everything my party does" attitude isn't really politics. It's just another form of tribalism.

I'm left of centre and I used to vote Labour without question. I changed to SNP and now, because of my location, I've been voting Liberal.

I can see the good in all 3 and I can see the faults.

Those who can't, or won't, aren't being political. They're being blind.

[Hibbyradge]

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Thatcher was going to win the next election no matter what the SNP did. The actions of the SNP only brought the inevitable forward by a few months. The labour government at the time was a complete disaster and had completely betrayed the people of Scotland. Labour brought in Thatcher through incompetence and infighting.

I remember that government and they were making a mess of pretty much everything.

But, the SNP wanted Thatcher in and they wanted her in asap.

As collosal a political mistake as you're ever likely to see.(and then I remembered Brexit! )

[lord bunberry]

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I couldn't agree more.

The "everything my party does" attitude isn't really politics. It's just another form of tribalism.

I'm left of centre and I used to vote Labour without question. I changed to SNP and now, because of my location, I've been voting Liberal.

I can see the good in all 3 and I can see the faults.

Those who can't, or won't, aren't being political. They're being blind.

Yes I agree. My main reason for voting SNP is fairly obvious, it doesn’t mean I agree with everything they do. I could list many things I disagree with about SNP policy, having a trans woman as a spokesperson for woman’s rights is deplorable imo.

[lord bunberry]

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I remember that government and they were making a mess of pretty much everything.

But, the SNP wanted Thatcher in and they wanted her in asap.

As collosal a political mistake as you're ever likely to see.(and then I remembered Brexit! )

I think at the time they saw Labour as the enemy and a change might have brought about a different approach. They were wrong, but you can see why they did it. They may have had a hand in facilitating a Thatcher government, but they weren’t responsible for her actions and she would’ve won the next election anyway and history would’ve been no different.