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You quoted my post and then came up with an argument against it which directly went to the heart of the matter of what I had said when it comes to the perpetuation of sectarianism in this country's football. What did I say? That I was not arguing against the right of Hibs fans to wave Erin go Bragh flags or tricolours and neither was I arguing against the right of Hearts fans to wave union flags … I'm not sure where Ulster flags come into it IMO they cant show any right to wave them, which is why I didn't mention them.
You seem to have entirely missed the pretty obvious point that I was making so I'll reiterate it. The point at issue isn't whether or not fans have a right to wave certain flags, or even a discussion about who does or doesn't have the biggest problem with sectarianism. The point was that if we want to eradicate sectarianism from the terraces then at least as a first step we need to set aside flags and symbols which perpetuate it, no matter how much 'right' we have to wave them and no matter how innocent our intentions when we use them.
Your response to my post was to argue a point that I had already conceded, so if my response to you was lazy then your failure to interpret the case I was making in my post showed that your reading of it was definitely lazy. I cant see where my wish to see the visible symbols which fuel sectarianism, no matter how unintentionally, can in any way be interpreted as giving strength to the status quo as you put it. That only holds water if the argument is about who has a right to do what and a whitabootery discussion regarding who is more sectarian …. that's not the argument I'm making, the argument is about what we can do to eradicate it.
All you did was to indulge in the never ending argument about who can or cant do what and who has or hasn't got the right to fly what flag. That's exactly the attitude which has fuelled sectarianism for decades …. I am not saying you are consciously advocating sectarianism, just that the argument you present has been driving it and will continue to do so unless we change.
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13-04-2019 03:30 PM #181
Last edited by NAE NOOKIE; 13-04-2019 at 03:35 PM.
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13-04-2019 03:35 PM #182This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
I’m not pretending anything. What I’m saying is that we must be looking at the issue with proportionality. There is a huge, enormous, massive, fundamental difference between the levels of interest and endorsement of religious hatred between Hibs and Rangers fans. Is that not a basic fact?
The presence of a flag with a harp and slogan, as well a few numpties with tricolours bears no relationship to what we see at some other clubs, whether you hate to see them at Hibs or not. It’s not misguided whataboutery on my part, it’s just pointing out some basic facts.
There are many views and many persuasions amongst the Hibsfan base, including racists, homophobes, xenophobes, we even have people who are keen to demonstrate their British credentials ( see the large green and black union flags). There is proportionally as many views as there are amongst supporters of any club. But common sense and my own eyes and ears tell me our contribution to Scotland’s sectarian issue is minimal.
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13-04-2019 03:40 PM #183This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
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13-04-2019 03:42 PM #184This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
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13-04-2019 04:11 PM #185This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
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13-04-2019 04:27 PM #186This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
Still think we are not as bad as the bigots
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13-04-2019 04:38 PM #187This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
I am sure at least one of the union flags has names of past Hibees names on it to remember them. Someone can maybe confirm this.
My wife mentioned the green union flag recently when it was shown on TV and that's what I thought it was.There is no such thing as too much yarn, just not enough time.
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13-04-2019 04:43 PM #188This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
Usually associated with HIBS Casuals movement
Capital City Service
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13-04-2019 04:46 PM #189This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
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13-04-2019 05:00 PM #190This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
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13-04-2019 05:34 PM #192This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
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13-04-2019 05:42 PM #193This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show QuoteThere is no such thing as too much yarn, just not enough time.
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13-04-2019 05:58 PM #194This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
Here's the facts around religious division in Scottish football. The vast vast majority of folk who follow Rangers and Hearts or Hibs and Celtic are about as religious as the chairman of the British atheist society and you would be as likely to find them in a church or chapel as the local humanist adherent.
The real meat and bones around football's sectarian divide is now far more nationalistic than religious, even if its beginnings were in Ireland's religious divide. The union flag and red hand of Ulster flag wavers are all about Britishness and unionism covered in a veneer of Protestantism, that's the reality of it. The obvious counter culture to that is the tricolour …. and the basis for that is a support of Irish unity, not an anti Protestant standpoint. But the effect is the same … wave a union flag you must be Protestant, wave a tricolour you must be Catholic.
I don't know why you are lecturing me over some perceived idea that I have suggested the Hibs support has a sectarian element, I have never suggested any such thing because there simply isn't any evidence for it. In all honesty I don't think Hearts have much in the way of a sectarian element either, their far bigger problem is a turn towards right wing British nationalism by the minority of dafties in their support … even if it is dressed up as and perceived as sectarianism.
How you can suggest I'm trying to drag Hibs into the sectarian question is bizarre. All I am saying is that from time to time the symbols that have been seen as the visual signs of the sectarian divide in this country are seen within the Hibs support … IE the tricolour and Erin go Bragh flags. It doesn't matter a toss if the folk using these flags say and genuinely believe that they are in honour of our clubs founders or that Erin go Bragh was the clubs original motto, their use enables … and that's the salient point here 'enables' … the knuckle draggers on the other side to indulge in whitabootery.
That's the bottom line in this discussion and I don't know why you continue to lecture me on points I have already conceded from the very beginning. The point isn't whether or not our support, or any support for that matter, has a sectarian element, the point is that if we are to seriously address the problem we have to get away from the fact that we have a right to do this or that and ask the question of whether not doing it would help to eradicate sectarian culture from the whole of Scottish football.
In my opinion if we were to make that sacrifice we would be setting an example which would be a first step on that road. For sure anybody could turn around and say 'aye but why should we when the others wont?' …. but if that is to be the case then we can look forward to the whole vicious circle going on and on and on.
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13-04-2019 06:05 PM #195This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
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15-04-2019 12:37 AM #196This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
That's what I was alluding to in my other posts …. I genuinely believe that your average modern day currant bun singing his sectarian bile doesn't really hate Kaffliks, he just thinks he does .. the truth is the union v a united Ireland is far more to the fore in his thinking than any thoughts of theological divisions.
Whether its religious or political its still sectarianism and at the end of the day arguing the semantics doesn't really address the problem.
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15-04-2019 12:50 PM #197This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
There’s a problem with the message if you can’t finish the 4th paragraph without falling asleep.
She may be well intentioned but I lost the will to find out what action Hearts are taking.
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15-04-2019 01:07 PM #198This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
You need to do some more research before stating that so categorically.
I have no doubt that there are Hibs Fans that are proud to be British, but you're wrong about that flag.
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15-04-2019 01:40 PM #199
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15-04-2019 02:32 PM #200This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
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15-04-2019 03:32 PM #201
The green and black union flag is used by the CCS
Probably because it looks quite cool and to wynd up the Celtic The Huns and the diets
Probably the green and white to represent HIBS and the black to represent a darker more sinister undercurrent
Nothing to do whatsoever with a longing to be part of a United Kingdom although I am sure there might be some hibbies out there that do
Mystery solved
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15-04-2019 03:49 PM #202
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People keep saying “if you know your history” then demonstrate quite clearly that they don’t.
It is, to a lesser extent, suggested of Jacobite uprising in Scotland that it was a Protestant v catholic struggle. Yet only one in five of the Jacobite army was catholic and the pope supported William of Orange at the start of all that bit of it
Polarisation needs only two poles and so it suits some parties to simplify these things down to Protestant v Catholic in the modern day.Last edited by CentreLine; 15-04-2019 at 07:31 PM.
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15-04-2019 10:21 PM #203This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
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15-04-2019 11:17 PM #204
Some wonderful posts by Nae Nookie on this thread.
Nails all my thoughts on the matters of flags, perception, the way forward etc far more eloquently than i ever could. The best i have seen on here.
A good post from Centreline as well.Last edited by CMurdoch; 15-04-2019 at 11:20 PM.
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16-04-2019 05:59 AM #205This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
As to the whole "orange b" thing I had plenty atheist mates of Protestant origin who used to sing that song as they viewed orange as something very different from Protestant. However in the world of whataboutery im sure the huns will counter that "fenians" means Republicans and not all Catholics. Havent heard the "tim malloy" song sung for a while but given the world of whataboutery we live in, hopefully it will totally drop off the Hibs songbook.
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16-04-2019 06:04 AM #206This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
Pretty much where I am and how I remember it
These colours don’t run
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16-04-2019 06:08 AM #207This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
These dodgy knees don't run
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