Tories are lying *******s (warning may contain traces of Tory)

[ronaldo7]

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So no answers to the point that you could have had your debate by now and by pulling this stunt, a number of SNPs let down their constituents?

Instead you start to suggest I’m a Tory. I’ve already been called a nationalist this week, I’m not sure which is worse

We asked for emergency legislation at pmqs, and she blanked it.

Having a debate is completely different to discussing and voting on legislation.

I'm sure you knew that.

You want to give it out but don't seem to be able to take it mate.

Lighten up, Nat 😉

[marinello59]

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We'll play within the rules, of course, anything else just wouldn't be cricket. 😊

[Just Alf]

're the title of this thread... seems they even lie to their own people!

Agree an amendment to the Brexit bill to get it voted through, but after spending 2 days agreeing the wording the Government changes it before their own pro-eu members get home!

And we want to trust them to hand back powers they've grabbed in 7 years time?



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[One Day Soon]

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Our people. 😂😂😂

What do you find so funny about making our people poorer?

[ronaldo7]

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What do you find so funny about making our people poorer?

From your original post in which you assert that Scotland would become impoverished if independent, I find that rather laughable to be honest.

I only have to look across the North Sea, to see what can be done with a country with less resources than us.

Onwards and upwards.

Any idea how many new members we've got?

How did labour live go? I heard they were selling Jeremy Corbyn scarfs for £15. I suppose they've got to get the money back somehow

💲💲💲💲💲

[Mibbes Aye]

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We asked for emergency legislation at pmqs, and she blanked it.

Having a debate is completely different to discussing and voting on legislation.

I'm sure you knew that.

You want to give it out but don't seem to be able to take it mate.

Lighten up, Nat ��

Oh dear. Some factual inaccuracy there.

Blackford didn't ask for emergency legislation, he asked for an immediate vote to hold a private sitting to have a debate.

We were in the middle of PMQs which is only meant to last thirty minutes. He was asked to wait until PMQs ended, which seems perfectly reasonable, but then this wasn't about being reasonable, it was about pulling a publicity stunt.

And five SNP MPs let down their constituents by storming out in the huff when they were meant to be asking questions on their constituents' behalfs.

EDIT - we are maybe at cross-purposes, I'm talking about the heckling which got him expelled, you are talking about before that. Sorry for any confusion.

[Mibbes Aye]

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From your original post in which you assert that Scotland would become impoverished if independent, I find that rather laughable to be honest.

I only have to look across the North Sea, to see what can be done with a country with less resources than us.

Onwards and upwards.

Any idea how many new members we've got?

How did labour live go? I heard they were selling Jeremy Corbyn scarfs for £15. I suppose they've got to get the money back somehow

💲💲💲💲💲

See my edit

[ronaldo7]

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Oh dear. Some factual inaccuracy there.

Blackford didn't ask for emergency legislation, he asked for an immediate vote to hold a private sitting to have a debate.

We were in the middle of PMQs which is only meant to last thirty minutes. He was asked to wait until PMQs ended, which seems perfectly reasonable, but then this wasn't about being reasonable, it was about pulling a publicity stunt.

And five SNP MPs let down their constituents by storming out in the huff when they were meant to be asking questions on their constituents' behalfs.

EDIT - we are maybe at cross-purposes, I'm talking about the heckling which got him expelled, you are talking about before that. Sorry for any confusion.

Thanks.

As I said earlier, I watched the debate on the EU withdrawal bill, and the comment by, Bercow telling them to make the case in other ways. Following day, blackford asks may for emergency legislation in his first question, he then proceeds to ask for the house to sit in private... All hell let's loose.

I know you don't like looking at this site, but it has full video evidence of what is described.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/today-in-parliament/

[Mibbes Aye]

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Thanks.

As I said earlier, I watched the debate on the EU withdrawal bill, and the comment by, Bercow telling them to make the case in other ways. Following day, blackford asks may for emergency legislation in his first question, he then proceeds to ask for the house to sit in private... All hell let's loose.

I know you don't like looking at this site, but it has full video evidence of what is described.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/today-in-parliament/

Yeah, thanks - I caught it elsewhere, but watched it again. Bercow is supposed to have staff there to guide him on the finer points of parliamentary procedure. Between them, they didn't cover themselves in glory.

[One Day Soon]

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From your original post in which you assert that Scotland would become impoverished if independent, I find that rather laughable to be honest.

I only have to look across the North Sea, to see what can be done with a country with less resources than us.

Onwards and upwards.

Any idea how many new members we've got?

How did labour live go? I heard they were selling Jeremy Corbyn scarfs for £15. I suppose they've got to get the money back somehow

💲💲💲💲💲

That's odd because the bit you quoted was 'our people' not 'impoverish'. Maybe you were trying to imply something else about our people. Who knows?

You should probably read the Growth Commission report which straight up admits the structural deficit is real, meaning independence puts us in the position of cutting public services or raising taxes dramatically - or both - just to stand still. It deals with Scotland's position because we're not Norway. This isn't No propaganda, its a report written by the SNP's own former parliamentary finance spokesman.

I was highly entertained by the former SNP members on twitter sharing the emails they had received from SNP HQ immediately after the stunt, asking them to rejoin the Party. Including those who, under GDPR, almost certainly should not have been on any list or be receiving any emails. It was an amazing coincidence that the spontaneous walk out by the SNP was accompanied by a well co-ordinated request to lapsed and resigned members to rejoin. What are the odds on that?

You appear to be confusing me with someone who supports the current version of Labour or indeed Corbyn. That would be hilariously inaccurate. And as I've posted previously he has something like 500,000 members and it's doing him **** all good - good luck with the 'extra' 5000 odd.

[Hibernia&Alba]

They opposed the abolition of child labour laws; opposed votes for women; opposed the creation of the NHS; opposed the creation of the welfare state; opposed free university education for all; opposed a national minimum wage; opposed working families tax credits; opposed health and safety legislation; opposed legislation to prevent discrimination by sex or race;

The list is endless throughout their history. They will then adopt popular measures and try to destroy them by stealth. I really don't understand how anyone with a sense of justice could give them their vote. To me it's basic human decency.

[Colr]

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They opposed the abolition of child labour laws; opposed votes for women; opposed the creation of the NHS; opposed the creation of the welfare state; opposed free university education for all; opposed a national minimum wage; opposed working families tax credits; opposed health and safety legislation; opposed legislation to prevent discrimination by sex or race;

The list is endless throughout their history. They will then adopt popular measures and try to destroy them by stealth. I really don't understand how anyone with a sense of justice could give them their vote. To me it's basic human decency.

It’s in their nature. They are there to preserve the position of the elite and they believe that life is a zero sum game. For them to win somebody must lose.

They are wrong and they are a cancer on the economy.

[johnbc70]

Are the powers that Nicola Sturgeon is demanding from Teresa May the exact same powers she will hand to the EU?

[Moulin Yarns]

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Are the powers that Nicola Sturgeon is demanding from Teresa May the exact same powers she will hand to the EU?

No.

[johnbc70]

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No.

OK, just a little confused by the SNP themselves who say some of the powers like control of the seas which are exercised by the EU and by EU laws are being 'grabbed'? So if Scotland became Independent and joined the EU we would retain control?

[Mr Grieves]

Let's get back on topic...

The prime minister has blatantly lied about extra funding for the NHS coming from a "brexit dividend". There ain't any extra money to be saved from brexit as pointed out by the IFS and some of her own backbenchers.


https://www.theguardian.com/society/...et-rise-brexit

It's cynical populist bull****

[Moulin Yarns]

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OK, just a little confused by the SNP themselves who say some of the powers like control of the seas which are exercised by the EU and by EU laws are being 'grabbed'? So if Scotland became Independent and joined the EU we would retain control?

Almost all legislation in the rUK and Scotland now originate in the EU. In my employment in Ecology the original law was the Wildlife and countryside Act 1981 which was universal across the UK. this was then strengthened by the EU as a result of the Bonn Convention and Bern Convention and were brought into law in Scotland through new legislation, the Nature Conservation (Scotland) Act 2004. This gave stronger wildlife protection in Scotland than in the rest of the UK.

Under the repatriation of devolved powers wildlife protection will be reduced to the UK level for at least 7 years.

This may not seem important to you, but the laws will not be handed back to the EU as they are Scottish laws, based on EU, and in some cases Worldwide agreements.

as you raise fisheries, this is controlled through the Aquaculture and fisheries (Scotland) Act 2013. Legislation that pertains only to Scotland as opposed to the Fisheries Act 1981 which is rUK legislation.

[johnbc70]

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Almost all legislation in the rUK and Scotland now originate in the EU. In my employment in Ecology the original law was the Wildlife and countryside Act 1981 which was universal across the UK. this was then strengthened by the EU as a result of the Bonn Convention and Bern Convention and were brought into law in Scotland through new legislation, the Nature Conservation (Scotland) Act 2004. This gave stronger wildlife protection in Scotland than in the rest of the UK.

Under the repatriation of devolved powers wildlife protection will be reduced to the UK level for at least 7 years.

This may not seem important to you, but the laws will not be handed back to the EU as they are Scottish laws, based on EU, and in some cases Worldwide agreements.

as you raise fisheries, this is controlled through the Aquaculture and fisheries (Scotland) Act 2013. Legislation that pertains only to Scotland as opposed to the Fisheries Act 1981 which is rUK legislation.

Got to say its confusing when even the SNP website tells me:

"Some devolved powers like support for farmers or control of our seas, are exercised at an EU level and are subject to EU law.

The UK government has introduced a Bill that makes a grab for these powers, returning them directly to Westminster."

It's probably complex but what you say contradicts this?

But if none of the powers would be handed straight back to the EU then I can understand more why this is a big deal for them.

[JeMeSouviens]

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Got to say its confusing when even the SNP website tells me:

"Some devolved powers like support for farmers or control of our seas, are exercised at an EU level and are subject to EU law.

The UK government has introduced a Bill that makes a grab for these powers, returning them directly to Westminster."

It's probably complex but what you say contradicts this?

But if none of the powers would be handed straight back to the EU then I can understand more why this is a big deal for them.

It's not complex in the slightest.

Firstly, understand how devolution works under the various Scotland acts: if a power is not explicitly reserved to Westminster under the act, it's devolved.

Some elements of Ag & fish, etc. that have been co-ordinated at an EU level will no longer be post-Brexit. As devolved powers, they naturally fall back to Holyrood (and Westminster for England). Both the Scottish & UK governments agree that in some cases, consistent UK frameworks will make more sense than divergent local policies. Scotgov would like these frameworks to be negotiated and agreed. UKgov wants to impose them on its own terms.

To pick a simple but well known example, Scotland might wish to agree to keep the EU style ban on chlorinated chicken whereas the UK would happily give it up as a concession in a US trade deal.

Unless you are politically infomed solely through Tory leaflets, I struggle to see why this is hard to understand?

[Moulin Yarns]

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It's not complex in the slightest.

Firstly, understand how devolution works under the various Scotland acts: if a power is not explicitly reserved to Westminster under the act, it's devolved.

Some elements of Ag & fish, etc. that have been co-ordinated at an EU level will no longer be post-Brexit. As devolved powers, they naturally fall back to Holyrood (and Westminster for England). Both the Scottish & UK governments agree that in some cases, consistent UK frameworks will make more sense than divergent local policies. Scotgov would like these frameworks to be negotiated and agreed. UKgov wants to impose them on its own terms.

To pick a simple but well known example, Scotland might wish to agree to keep the EU style ban on chlorinated chicken whereas the UK would happily give it up as a concession in a US trade deal.

Unless you are politically infomed solely through Tory leaflets, I struggle to see why this is hard to understand?

Likewise Fracking. Banned in Scotland but promoted in England.

[johnbc70]

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It's not complex in the slightest.

Firstly, understand how devolution works under the various Scotland acts: if a power is not explicitly reserved to Westminster under the act, it's devolved.

Some elements of Ag & fish, etc. that have been co-ordinated at an EU level will no longer be post-Brexit. As devolved powers, they naturally fall back to Holyrood (and Westminster for England). Both the Scottish & UK governments agree that in some cases, consistent UK frameworks will make more sense than divergent local policies. Scotgov would like these frameworks to be negotiated and agreed. UKgov wants to impose them on its own terms.

To pick a simple but well known example, Scotland might wish to agree to keep the EU style ban on chlorinated chicken whereas the UK would happily give it up as a concession in a US trade deal.

Unless you are politically infomed solely through Tory leaflets, I struggle to see why this is hard to understand?

Yes it's obviously very clear and simple, wonder what all the fuss is about. You should give David Davis a call, sure he could use your help to make him and all the civil servants involved get this all sorted sooner.

[G B Young]

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're the title of this thread... seems they even lie to their own people!

Agree an amendment to the Brexit bill to get it voted through, but after spending 2 days agreeing the wording the Government changes it before their own pro-eu members get home!

And we want to trust them to hand back powers they've grabbed in 7 years time?



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There's no 'power grab'. It just suits the SNP independence agenda to keep churning out that phrase, as well as throwing in a few rabble-rousing phrases like 'Scotland will not be silenced' in the hope they can finally gain some traction from Brexit when it comes to fuelling demand for a second independence referendum. Anyone who takes the time to read what's actually at the heart of the 'controversy' will see that it could all have been amicably resolved months ago had the Scottish Government shared the Welsh Government's common sense approach.

[Colr]

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're the title of this thread... seems they even lie to their own people!

Agree an amendment to the Brexit bill to get it voted through, but after spending 2 days agreeing the wording the Government changes it before their own pro-eu members get home!

And we want to trust them to hand back powers they've grabbed in 7 years time?



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Lying - and lying big - is covered on page 1 of the authoritarian’s playbook.

[WeeRussell]

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That's odd because the bit you quoted was 'our people' not 'impoverish'. Maybe you were trying to imply something else about our people. Who knows?

You should probably read the Growth Commission report which straight up admits the structural deficit is real, meaning independence puts us in the position of cutting public services or raising taxes dramatically - or both - just to stand still. It deals with Scotland's position because we're not Norway. This isn't No propaganda, its a report written by the SNP's own former parliamentary finance spokesman.

I was highly entertained by the former SNP members on twitter sharing the emails they had received from SNP HQ immediately after the stunt, asking them to rejoin the Party. Including those who, under GDPR, almost certainly should not have been on any list or be receiving any emails. It was an amazing coincidence that the spontaneous walk out by the SNP was accompanied by a well co-ordinated request to lapsed and resigned members to rejoin. What are the odds on that?

You appear to be confusing me with someone who supports the current version of Labour or indeed Corbyn. That would be hilariously inaccurate. And as I've posted previously he has something like 500,000 members and it's doing him **** all good - good luck with the 'extra' 5000 odd.

Why do you keep referring to the extra 5,000 members and playing it down? Surely growing membership to a party has to be a positive for them,

To keep bringing it up and dismissing it makes it almost seem like you’re worried about something?

[Hibrandenburg]

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Why do you keep referring to the extra 5,000 members and playing it down? Surely growing membership to a party has to be a positive for them,

To keep bringing it up and dismissing it makes it almost seem like you’re worried about something?

The growing paying membership is only the tip of the iceberg, if 7000+ people have decided to dip into their pockets and pay to support the SNP because of recent events, how many more have just simply decided to vote for them? The times they are a changing.

[JeMeSouviens]

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The growing paying membership is only the tip of the iceberg, if 7000+ people have decided to dip into their pockets and pay to support the SNP because of recent events, how many more have just simply decided to vote for them? The times they are a changing.

Hmmm, I'd wait for a poll or 2 before saying that. They might just be a polarising rather than a changing.

[G B Young]

The 'power grab' myth is well explained here (along with a decent summation of why the SNP irritate the hell out of so many folk due to their seemingly endless inability to comprehend why the entire Scottish electorate doesn't think like them):

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/0...it-power-grab/

[JeMeSouviens]

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The 'power grab' myth is well explained here (along with a decent summation of why the SNP irritate the hell out of so many folk due to their seemingly endless inability to comprehend why the entire Scottish electorate doesn't think like them):

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/0...it-power-grab/

It doesn't explain it at all, it just recycles Tory propaganda (unsurprisingly since Daisley is a Tory).

The "powers handed back to Brussels"* line is a complete red herring unless/until there's a 2nd indyref and we win. In the meantime, the powers are not going to be with the EU, they can only be exercised by Holyrood or Westminster and, as I've said so many times now it's making my keyboard upset, both sides agree that UK frameworks in some areas make sense, the issue is whether they are agreed or imposed.


* and even then, they would be exercised by agreement among EU member states, not by imposition from "Brussels".

[ronaldo7]

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It doesn't explain it at all, it just recycles Tory propaganda (unsurprisingly since Daisley is a Tory).

The "powers handed back to Brussels"* line is a complete red herring unless/until there's a 2nd indyref and we win. In the meantime, the powers are not going to be with the EU, they can only be exercised by Holyrood or Westminster and, as I've said so many times now it's making my keyboard upset, both sides agree that UK frameworks in some areas make sense, the issue is whether they are agreed or imposed.


* and even then, they would be exercised by agreement among EU member states, not by imposition from "Brussels".

Since the Welsh government gave away their powers to Westminster, they've gone from 24 to 26.

I wonder when it'll stop. 🚫

[RyeSloan]

Lord Sewel himself has came out and supported the U.K. government approach on this, clearly stating that the return of powers under Brexit was not a consideration or foreseen when the wording was written. He then goes on to state that that this would be considered an extraordinary event that the ‘not normally’ phrase would apply to and that in this circumstance he sees it perfectly reasonable for the U.K. to retain some of the powers.

So we now have one side arguing that the Sewel convention is being ‘torn up’ when Sewel himself is saying that’s simply not the case.