'Football Lads Alliance'

[basehibby]

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Do you think there is a concerted, Worldwide media effort to suppress news and evidence about it? Seems surprising that all the information is restricted to conspiracy sites and nowhere else.

I think it’s a case of confirmation bias to be quite honest. I’ve read many conspiracy theories, and even the most ridiculous ones can be composed well enough to make them believable - especially if you don’t study both sides, which a lot of conspiracy theorists don’t in my opinion.

I am not a structural engineer, or any type of scientist (outside a few years of uni education) so it’s impossible for me to say for certain one way or another which side is true, but the way the evidence stacks up, I know which story I believe.

It's not restricted to conspiracy sites though - and no I don't have all the answers. What I know is that there was never a criminal investigation into the crime of the millenium and that the official story we have been fed is so full of holes as to be laughable.

I certainly do not disbelieve the testimony of the firefighters who were actually there that there were multiple secondary explosions - this was buried and/or ignored by the NIST "investigation" ergo there WAS what amounts to a cover up. I can understand people finding it hard to swallow - took me years of visiting and revisiting the matter for the penny finally to drop.

[Iain G]

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The evidence is all over the web - just have a look FFS!

EG:
Jet engine found 2 blocks down the road from the towers - wrong engine for the type of plane it was supposed to have come off! So where the heck did that come from then???

US Government still concealing evidence that could shut all the truthers up (if it existed) 16 years later!!! (eg footage of alleged hijackers proceeding through the airport - footage of an aircraft approaching and striking the Pentagon - all confiscated and never released to the public - WHY?)

Large pools of molten metal observed by firefighters under the WTC buildings (WTF?!?)

NIST Report ignores the testimony of the firefighters who were in the buildings that multiple secondary explosions occurred prior to and as the buildings were collapsing (this was also captured on film) - NIST then claim there is "no evidence" that explosives were involved and do not even bother to investigate that angle(???)

FBI never pressed charges against Osama Bin Laden - why??? No evidence connecting him to the event (source FBI).

Pentagon "aircraft" just happened to hit the office investigating the $3.5 TRILLION missing from the Pentagon budget (announced the day before) - killing the investigating team and destroying the data. Ah but the data will be backed up of course surely! But where??? In Building 7 of the World Trade Center which just happened to miraculously collapse into it's own footprint at about the same time. (tell me what are the chances of THAT???)

All of the above (and much more) on top of the ridiculous chain of coincidences which we are supposed to swallow which apparently allowed a bunch of (apparently hopeless) trainee pilots to waltz through the airspace of the country with the most humungous "defence" budget in history before performing feats of aerobatic brilliance that Dan Dare and Biggles would have been proud of. And to top it all off, three buildings designed to withstand multiple aircraft collisions then completely defy the laws of Physics to collapse into their own footprints at near freefall speed.

But of course the BBC (which announced the purportedly random and unexpected collapse of Building 7 - a full 20 minutes before it happened - oops!) say there's nothing to see here so everyone that raises questions is a tin hat wearing conspiracy theorist. OK fine - maybe you should apply for a job in FIFA (move along nothing to see here) I'm sure you'd do great!

Some answers (some of which may have something to do with reality).

1) It obviously came from ANOTHER aircraft.
2) George W Bush accidentally taped over the footage with 2 episodes of Benson and 1 episode of Alf.
3) It was the T-1000 from Terminator 2 sent back to stop Arnie becoming the Governator.
4) Concussive shock and damage to hearing of the firefighters from the first explosion lead them to think they were hearding more explosions....
5) Cos Osama Bin Laden is actually Barack Obama, without the beard.
6) You think if the Pentagon couldn't even manage it's own budget it could organise something as complicated as this?!? Also the odds would probably be 1 in 7.
7) Plenty of expert evidence since the incident as to how the construction of the towers would lead to their collapse as shown when hit by aircraft. It's more to do with the way teh building is structurally connected back to it's core and the excessive heat caused by the aviation fuel burning that would never have been taken into account during design of the building.
8) Have you met any Americans? Do many of them give you the air of confidence they could manage to tie their own shoelaces never mind organise this?!
9) Both Biggles and Dan Dare are fictional characters...
10) You do know there is a time difference between USA and UK, am sure the BBC announced many things several hours ahead of local NYC time...

[ElginHibbie]

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It's not restricted to conspiracy sites though - and no I don't have all the answers. What I know is that there was never a criminal investigation into the crime of the millenium and that the official story we have been fed is so full of holes as to be laughable.

I certainly do not disbelieve the testimony of the firefighters who were actually there that there were multiple secondary explosions - this was buried and/or ignored by the NIST "investigation" ergo there WAS what amounts to a cover up. I can understand people finding it hard to swallow - took me years of visiting and revisiting the matter for the penny finally to drop.

“A team of Norwegian scientists claimed that an explosive chemical reaction may have been responsible for collapse of the Twin Towers on 9/11.

They said molten aluminium from the aircraft flown by the terrorists combined with water from fire sprinklers and caused a powerful explosion“

Makes a lot more sense to me than some plot to blow the building up which would have required months to execute without being caught and took me 30 seconds to find

[Oscar T Grouch]

The problem I have with conspiracy theories in general is that they don't take into account humans, humans in general cannae hud their water, the more people involved in any theory means the more likely that someone will blab about it. In regards to 911 there are holes in the US administrations story, but to leap from that to it was planned and carried out by the government at the time is a huge leap (remember George W was in charge back then). It is far more likely that some folk didn't do their jobs properly and typical to those in power they chose to hid it rather than 'fess up.

Anyway, as previously stated, if this is going to be a 911 thread can we move it to the holy ground or can we get it back on track and discuss the FLA and their attempts to recruit from our support, which is a topic well worthy of discussion on a football board?

[660]

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“A team of Norwegian scientists claimed that an explosive chemical reaction may have been responsible for collapse of the Twin Towers on 9/11.

They said molten aluminium from the aircraft flown by the terrorists combined with water from fire sprinklers and caused a powerful explosion“

Makes a lot more sense to me than some plot to blow the building up which would have required months to execute without being caught and took me 30 seconds to find

Or maybe just the electrical equipment already in the building might have exploded. The idea of people hearing “explosions” as a massive building collapses as evidence for anything is laughable.

[basehibby]

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Some answers (some of which may have something to do with reality).

1) It obviously came from ANOTHER aircraft.
2) George W Bush accidentally taped over the footage with 2 episodes of Benson and 1 episode of Alf.
3) It was the T-1000 from Terminator 2 sent back to stop Arnie becoming the Governator.
4) Concussive shock and damage to hearing of the firefighters from the first explosion lead them to think they were hearding more explosions....
5) Cos Osama Bin Laden is actually Barack Obama, without the beard.
6) You think if the Pentagon couldn't even manage it's own budget it could organise something as complicated as this?!? Also the odds would probably be 1 in 7.
7) Plenty of expert evidence since the incident as to how the construction of the towers would lead to their collapse as shown when hit by aircraft. It's more to do with the way teh building is structurally connected back to it's core and the excessive heat caused by the aviation fuel burning that would never have been taken into account during design of the building.
8) Have you met any Americans? Do many of them give you the air of confidence they could manage to tie their own shoelaces never mind organise this?!
9) Both Biggles and Dan Dare are fictional characters...
10) You do know there is a time difference between USA and UK, am sure the BBC announced many things several hours ahead of local NYC time...

very funny.

Re No 10 (as you do actually appear to be serious here!) the reporter was on the spot in New York with building 7 clearly visible over her left shoulder when she announced it's unexpected "collapse" 20 minutes ahead of script.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=677i43QfYpQ

[Tinribs]

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It's not restricted to conspiracy sites though - and no I don't have all the answers. What I know is that there was never a criminal investigation into the crime of the millenium and that the official story we have been fed is so full of holes as to be laughable.

I certainly do not disbelieve the testimony of the firefighters who were actually there that there were multiple secondary explosions - this was buried and/or ignored by the NIST "investigation" ergo there WAS what amounts to a cover up. I can understand people finding it hard to swallow - took me years of visiting and revisiting the matter for the penny finally to drop.

Crime of the millennium? Think there are a few Jews and gypsies who would query that. Unless that was a conspiracy too of course..

[basehibby]

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Or maybe just the electrical equipment already in the building might have exploded. The idea of people hearing “explosions” as a massive building collapses as evidence for anything is laughable.

So you don't believe these guys then?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FNlYKQ7HQo

or this guy here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBb00PQR1zo

But you do believe these guys ....

http://www.milligazette.com/system/a...jpg?1446835249

Next you'll be telling me Vlad was a great businessman and it's OK to lend money to yourself?!?

[Geo_1875]

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Crime of the millennium? Think there are a few Jews and gypsies who would query that. Unless that was a conspiracy too of course..

You do know the millenium started in 2000? There was a bit in the news in the lead up to it.

[basehibby]

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Crime of the millennium? Think there are a few Jews and gypsies who would query that. Unless that was a conspiracy too of course..

erm - last time I checked WW2 happened last millennium.

[SRHibs]

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The problem I have with conspiracy theories in general is that they don't take into account humans, humans in general cannae hud their water, the more people involved in any theory means the more likely that someone will blab about it. In regards to 911 there are holes in the US administrations story, but to leap from that to it was planned and carried out by the government at the time is a huge leap (remember George W was in charge back then). It is far more likely that some folk didn't do their jobs properly and typical to those in power they chose to hid it rather than 'fess up.

Anyway, as previously stated, if this is going to be a 911 thread can we move it to the holy ground or can we get it back on track and discuss the FLA and their attempts to recruit from our support, which is a topic well worthy of discussion on a football board?

Yup, this about sums it up:

A broader point is that conspiracy theories overestimate the competence and discretion of officials and bureaucracies, who are assumed to be able to make and carry out sophisticated secret plans, despite abundant evidence that in open societies government action does not usually remain secret for very long.20 Recall that a distinctive feature of conspiracy theories is that they attribute immense power to the agents of the conspiracy; the attribution is usually implausible but also makes the theories especially vulnerable to challenge. Consider all the work that must be done to hide and to cover up the government’s role in producing a terrorist attack on its own territory, or in arranging to kill political opponents. In a closed society, secrets are not difficult to keep, and distrust of official accounts makes a great deal of sense. In such societies, conspiracy theories are both more likely to be true and harder to show to be false in light of available information.21 But when the press is free, and when checks and balances are in force, government cannot easily keep its conspiracies hidden for long. These points do not mean that it is logically impossible, even in free societies, that conspiracy theories are true. But it does mean that institutional checks make it unlikely, in such societies, that powerful groups can keep dark secrets for extended periods, at least if those secrets involve important events with major social salience.


An especially useful account suggests that what makes (unjustified) conspiracy theories unjustified is that those who accept them must also accept a kind of spreading distrust of all knowledge-producing institutions, in a way that makes it difficult to believe anything at all.22 To think, for example, that U.S. government officials destroyed the World Trade Center and then covered their tracks requires an ever-widening conspiracy theory, in which the 9/11 Commission, congressional leaders, the FBI, and the media were either participants in or dupes of the conspiracy. But anyone who believed that would undercut the grounds for many of their other beliefs, which are warranted only by trust in the knowledge-producing institutions created by government and society. How many other things must not be believed, if we are not to believe something accepted by so many diverse actors? There may not be a logical contradiction here, but conspiracy theorists might well have to question a number of propositions that they seem willing to take for granted. As Robert Anton Wilson notes of the conspiracy theories advanced by Holocaust deniers, “a conspiracy that can deceive us about 6,000,000 deaths can deceive us about anything, and [then] it takes a great leap of faith for Holocaust Revisionists to believe World War II happened at all, or that Franklin Roosevelt did serve as President from 1933 to 1945, or that Marilyn Monroe was more ‘real’ than King Kong or Donald Duck.

[Iain G]

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very funny.

Re No 10 (as you do actually appear to be serious here!) the reporter was on the spot in New York with building 7 clearly visible over her left shoulder when she announced it's unexpected "collapse" 20 minutes ahead of script.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=677i43QfYpQ

I was only serious about Point 7, though Point 2 is probably as near to the truth as any of it

[MKHIBEE]

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very funny.

Re No 10 (as you do actually appear to be serious here!) the reporter was on the spot in New York with building 7 clearly visible over her left shoulder when she announced it's unexpected "collapse" 20 minutes ahead of script.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=677i43QfYpQ

” When the camera cuts to you, tell the nation that building 7 has collapsed”
” But it’s still standing”
” I know but, trust me, it’s going to fall in 20 minutes, doing it this way means we get an exclusive”

[basehibby]

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Yup, this about sums it up:

Yes - it does sum it up. The cat has been out of the bag since day one and it's not going back in. There are many gaping holes and anomalies in the 911 story - along with testimony from former CIA agents, government officials, architects, engineers, airline pilots, retired generals - as well as the fire fighters who were actually there that blow the whole thing apart - confirming the humanity of the perpetrators and their consequent tendency to bugger things up.

They rely on the lazy thinking and credulousness of the majority of the population not to face up to the truth in front of them because it makes them feel uncomfortable. And it works - up to a point...

[Ozymandias]

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How about these for starters:
http://911truth.org/academic-papers-on-911/

However, the burden of evidence does not lie with me my friend. I am merely pointing out the glaringly obvious fact that the NIST report is a pile of baloney seeking to support a fairy story. They didn't even bother their ***** to investigate the possibility of explosives being used - despite hundreds of witnesses (many of them on the spot first responders such as firemen and police) stating that they clearly heard multiple secondary explosions at the time of the "collapse" of all three buildings.

This together with such glaring anomalies as the aircraft flying way in excess of their maximum speed for such a low altitude - with the amatuers at the controls seemingly able to pull off stunning aeronautical manouvres that senior pilots would have struggled to achieve without the bloody wings falling off!


I could go on and on but this is a football forum - if you are genuinely interested then there is a wealth of information at your fingertips - please do spend some time looking into it.

One of the things about providing references is that sometimes people will look at them.
I followed your link, and went trhough the first dozen or so. Where there are abstracts, they dont strongly suggest support for the conspiracies. The vast majority are not scientific journals, and therefore not subject to peer review. The only article with significant acadwmic crwdentials that seemed to support an inside job was surrounding stock market activity after 9/11, but that tried to retrofit actions to meet the conclusion.
I'd suggest yoy maybe critically read your own references. Im not sure the acceptance the Journal of Anarchist Studies on Cultural Development has as a reliable academic source.
Oh, and if the tin hat fits, wear it.

[SRHibs]

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very funny.

Re No 10 (as you do actually appear to be serious here!) the reporter was on the spot in New York with building 7 clearly visible over her left shoulder when she announced it's unexpected "collapse" 20 minutes ahead of script.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=677i43QfYpQ

Ever heard of Occam’s razor? I think it takes far less logical leaps to put that video (if it’s not pre-recorded footage) down to misreporting as opposed to being a part of a giant conspiracy - which now the BBC and its reporters are privy to.

[SRHibs]

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Yes - it does sum it up. The cat has been out of the bag since day one and it's not going back in. There are many gaping holes and anomalies in the 911 story - along with testimony from former CIA agents, government officials, architects, engineers, airline pilots, retired generals - as well as the fire fighters who were actually there that blow the whole thing apart - confirming the humanity of the perpetrators and their consequent tendency to bugger things up.

They rely on the lazy thinking and credulousness of the majority of the population not to face up to the truth in front of them because it makes them feel uncomfortable. And it works - up to a point...

So, all the people who have their own research and proven (to their minds) that it was not a conspiracy theory are just suffering from cognitive dissonance? The entire thing isn’t proliferating because society is lazy?

If we are able to paint each side with broad strokes then in my mind conspiracy theorists seem to:

1. Enjoy the fact that they’re cognisant of things which no-one else is, giving them a sense of superiority. A placebo, mind.

2. Are uncomfortable with the idea that not everything is controlled.

[Geo_1875]

Conspiracy - doesn't hold up because people can't keep secrets and they aren't skilled enough to carry out whatever happened.

Atrocity - completely believable because this particular group of people could keep secrets and had the skills to carry it out.

I just don't know who to believe now.

[basehibby]

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One of the things about providing references is that sometimes people will look at them.
I followed your link, and went trhough the first dozen or so. Where there are abstracts, they dont strongly suggest support for the conspiracies. The vast majority are not scientific journals, and therefore not subject to peer review. The only article with significant acadwmic crwdentials that seemed to support an inside job was surrounding stock market activity after 9/11, but that tried to retrofit actions to meet the conclusion.
I'd suggest yoy maybe critically read your own references. Im not sure the acceptance the Journal of Anarchist Studies on Cultural Development has as a reliable academic source.
Oh, and if the tin hat fits, wear it.

There are more where that came from - but you stick to your own NIST verified conspiracy theory and I'll stick to NOT believing it until such time of course that all the previously ignored evidence is acknowledged, revealed and analysed. There's none so blind as those that refuse to see as they say.

[basehibby]

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So, all the people who have their own research and proven (to their minds) that it was not a conspiracy theory are just suffering from cognitive dissonance? The entire thing isn’t proliferating because society is lazy?

If we are able to paint each side with broad strokes then in my mind conspiracy theorists seem to:

1. Enjoy the fact that they’re cognisant of things which no-one else is, giving them a sense of superiority. A placebo, mind.

2. Are uncomfortable with the idea that not everything is controlled.

Yada yada yada - I'm afraid I don't fit into your tuppenny conspiracy theorist psychological profile so give up on that one.

Funny thing about the cod psychology you describe though is it can very easily be turned around and applied in the opposite direction with the following slight adjustment - psychological profile of people afraid to think outside the accepted societal norm:

1. Enjoy the fact they are cognisant of things which nearly everyone else is, giving them a sense of comfort. A Placebo mind.

2. Are uncomfortable with the idea that not everything is controlled.

However, I tend to think that the real reason most people are reluctant to think outside the box is that they have busy lives and in any case feel powerless to change anything and therefore never look beyond the end of their noses.

[SRHibs]

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Yada yada yada - I'm afraid I don't fit into your tuppenny conspiracy theorist psychological profile so give up on that one.

Funny thing about the cod psychology you describe though is it can very easily be turned around and applied in the opposite direction with the following slight adjustment - psychological profile of people afraid to think outside the accepted societal norm:

1. Enjoy the fact they are cognisant of things which nearly everyone else is, giving them a sense of comfort. A Placebo mind.

2. Are uncomfortable with the idea that not everything is controlled.

However, I tend to think that the real reason most people are reluctant to think outside the box is that they have busy lives and in any case feel powerless to change anything and therefore never look beyond the end of their noses.

I was just mirroring your generalisations about non-believers, not seriously suggesting all conspiracy theorists conform to those archetypes. Similarly, just because someone doesn’t believe 9/11 was an inside job doesn’t mean they are afraid of lifting some veil.

I think this is a fruitless discussion anyway.

[basehibby]

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I was just mirroring your generalisations about non-believers, not seriously suggesting all conspiracy theorists conform to those archetypes. Similarly, just because someone doesn’t believe 9/11 was an inside job doesn’t mean they are afraid of lifting some veil.

I think this is a fruitless discussion anyway.

Fair dos - I only posted on this subject in response to someone alluding to the myth that anyone who questions the NIST/Bush sanctioned 911 conspiracy theory is some kind of tin hat merchant. A nonsense which deserves to be challenged as I think I have demonstrated.

So - to get things back on track has anyone been approached to join this man-tits alliance yet then???

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

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Yada yada yada - I'm afraid I don't fit into your tuppenny conspiracy theorist psychological profile so give up on that one.

Funny thing about the cod psychology you describe though is it can very easily be turned around and applied in the opposite direction with the following slight adjustment - psychological profile of people afraid to think outside the accepted societal norm:

1. Enjoy the fact they are cognisant of things which nearly everyone else is, giving them a sense of comfort. A Placebo mind.

2. Are uncomfortable with the idea that not everything is controlled.

However, I tend to think that the real reason most people are reluctant to think outside the box is that they have busy lives and in any case feel powerless to change anything and therefore never look beyond the end of their noses.

Sorry, im just catching up with this, and so i dont want to misrepresent you. Are you saying that you really believe 9/11 was a conspiracy, and it was in fact perpetrated by the US Govt against themselves?

[Iain G]

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Yada yada yada - I'm afraid I don't fit into your tuppenny conspiracy theorist psychological profile so give up on that one.

Funny thing about the cod psychology you describe though is it can very easily be turned around and applied in the opposite direction with the following slight adjustment - psychological profile of people afraid to think outside the accepted societal norm:

1. Enjoy the fact they are cognisant of things which nearly everyone else is, giving them a sense of comfort. A Placebo mind.

2. Are uncomfortable with the idea that not everything is controlled.
.

Yes they all support Heart of Midlothian and there are 400,000 of them.

[Beefster]

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What I know is that there was never a criminal investigation into the crime of the millenium

Not for the first time on this thread, you are just plain wrong.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PENTTBOM

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Wibble!

[Ozymandias]

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There are more where that came from - but you stick to your own NIST verified conspiracy theory and I'll stick to NOT believing it until such time of course that all the previously ignored evidence is acknowledged, revealed and analysed. There's none so blind as those that refuse to see as they say.

Im sure there are more where that came from. Ths issue for you is that they don't actually support your position.

Your point that we're all blind and that until we see exactly what you see is a tad arrogant, I'd suggest.

Incidentally, what do you actually believe did happen on 9/11?

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

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Incidentally, what do you actually believe did happen on 9/11?

We got bevvied in Laganas instead of travelling to Athens for the game. Fact! Endoff (Never posted Endoff before, my life feels emboldened).

[basehibby]

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Sorry, im just catching up with this, and so i dont want to misrepresent you. Are you saying that you really believe 9/11 was a conspiracy, and it was in fact perpetrated by the US Govt against themselves?

Supposed to be back on the man-tits alliance now but - 9/11 was definitely the result of a conspiracy - of that there is no argument. The bone of contention is who were the conspirators. Also, the story we are routinely fed is so full of holes as to be a laughing stock and if you don't know that already then you should really do some research - even a cursory glance at the info I've posted already should give you some idea of this but comes nowhere close to covering all the ground.

Given that the main proponents of this story were George W Bush's government - the core of which hailed from a far right organisation called the "Project for a New American Century" who's tenets called for "full spectrum dominance" of the world by the USA accompanied by "regime change" in multiple nations - and who also stated that a "New Pearl Harbour" event would likely be necessary to prepare US public opinion to allow this to happen. Also given the $3.5 Trillion that was found to have disappeared from the Pentagon budget shortly before 911 and the fact that the investigation into this and it's data were destroyed by the twin strikes on the Pentagon and WTC7 - well you don't need to be Sherlock Holmes to start pointing the big finger of suspicion at George W Bush (and family), Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, Paul Wofowitz and their PNAC associates.

If you add to this the complicity of Cheney and Rumsfeld in ensuring no interceptors could get in the way, the refusal after 16 years plus of the US authorities to release evidence that could shut all us skeptics up straight away (ie video footage from around the Pentagon and within the airport) then it's little wonder that questions are still being asked and so they should be. To be exact, my suspicions are upon ELEMENTS of the then US government and their associates. However, the actions of subsequent administrations would suggest that they know damn fine well what happened but do not believe it's in their interests to come clean.

[bigwheel]

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Supposed to be back on the man-tits alliance now but - 9/11 was definitely the result of a conspiracy - of that there is no argument. The bone of contention is who were the conspirators. Also, the story we are routinely fed is so full of holes as to be a laughing stock and if you don't know that already then you should really do some research - even a cursory glance at the info I've posted already should give you some idea of this but comes nowhere close to covering all the ground.

Given that the main proponents of this story were George W Bush's government - the core of which hailed from a far right organisation called the "Project for a New American Century" who's tenets called for "full spectrum dominance" of the world by the USA accompanied by "regime change" in multiple nations - and who also stated that a "New Pearl Harbour" event would likely be necessary to prepare US public opinion to allow this to happen. Also given the $3.5 Trillion that was found to have disappeared from the Pentagon budget shortly before 911 and the fact that the investigation into this and it's data were destroyed by the twin strikes on the Pentagon and WTC7 - well you don't need to be Sherlock Holmes to start pointing the big finger of suspicion at George W Bush (and family), Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, Paul Wofowitz and their PNAC associates.

If you add to this the complicity of Cheney and Rumsfeld in ensuring no interceptors could get in the way, the refusal after 16 years plus of the US authorities to release evidence that could shut all us skeptics up straight away (ie video footage from around the Pentagon and within the airport) then it's little wonder that questions are still being asked and so they should be. To be exact, my suspicions are upon ELEMENTS of the then US government and their associates. However, the actions of subsequent administrations would suggest that they know damn fine well what happened but do not believe it's in their interests to come clean.

I didn't think people really believed this stuff.


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