Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[JeMeSouviens]

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The reason Celtic fans want to have the titles removed is so that they can reclaim soul ownership of "9 in a row." No other club or fans would benefit apart from seeing fair play done. So far as the titles and cups won, they are all tarnished whether or not the SFA take any formal action to remove them.

The EBT years are all post 9iar.

[JeMeSouviens]

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I've just had an unpleasant thought. If Rangers are stripped of their titles I assume that the teams coming second in the relevant years are credited with winning the league in those seasons. A brief look at the records shows a certain Gorgie club as runners up at least once.

Not necessarily. They could just void those years from the record books.

[Iain G]

David Murray still in denial / trying to deflect from his illegal activities and create some kind of philanthropic sob story that he was actually helping the poor small businesses, and blame it all on Craig Whyte again.

From the BBC story:

He said: "It should be emphasised that there have been no allegations made by HMRC or any of the courts that the club was involved in tax evasion, which is a criminal offence.

"The decision will be greeted with dismay by the ordinary creditors of the club, many of which are small businesses, who will now receive a much lower distribution in the liquidation of the club, which occurred during the ownership of Craig Whyte, than may otherwise have been the case."

It just beggars belief...

[Hibernia&Alba]

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Not necessarily. They could just void those years from the record books.

It wouldn't be right to void the season for everybody because of The Rangers' behaviour. Though I very much doubt trophies won during the EBT era will be stripped, it's a valid discussion to have. The Rangers had an unfair advantage, paying players wages that were otherwise unaffordable. It's a clear case of cheating which needs to be fully debated.

[Lang Toun Hibs]

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The only punishment old Rangers ever got was a small fine - which they still havent paid.

Never let them forget they have yet to be properly punished.

Being forced to restart in D3 was a circumventing of the rules for their benefit... it was not a punishment as the Gers Media types like to lie about.

Spot on...the new club were welcomed in...against the rules.

[CathroMustStay]

Any Hibs fan who is apathetic or has a 'meh' attitude towards justice against the crimes and cheating of Rangers Football Club (1872-2012) is, with respect, a cretin.

[Ozyhibby]

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It wouldn't be right to void the season for everybody because of The Rangers' behaviour. Though I very much doubt trophies won during the EBT era will be stripped, it's a valid discussion to have. The Rangers had an unfair advantage, paying players wages that were otherwise unaffordable. It's a clear case of cheating which needs to be fully debated.

The Tour de France just have an asterisk where Lance Armstrong used to be.
That's what should happen in Scotland.



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[Lang Toun Hibs]

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Don't see the point in stripping them of titles.

No one gains anything from it and as far as Rangers go they would still say they had won them.

The new board aren't responsible for what went on before so don't see how they can be blamed or fined for the actions of others.

Sorry, I know this isn't a popular view!!

Well, if that's your view then you're entitled to it....but while you've got it, away and boil yer heid and make daft soup! Stripping the titles would finally be some form of punishment the old club can't avoid. No need to award the stripped titles to others, just a clear and official recognition that cheating isn't acceptable. The old club is punished, the record books amended and we can all move on.

[emerald green]

I see Sir David Murray has released a statement decrying the Supreme Court verdict. What a surprise.

In it, Murray claims the court decision "will be greeted with dismay by ordinary creditors of the club (as was), many of whom are small businesses, who will now receive a much lower distribution in the liquidation of the club than may otherwise have been the case." So whose to blame for that SDM?

Just like the hard pressed British taxpayer was deprived of revenue by his EBTs. Presumably HMRC will now pursue those individuals for any tax payable?

[Hibernia&Alba]

Belter of a quote on Follow Follow:

'I know that it’s been stated on here that there’s no appetite in the SFA to go down the road of attempting to rob us of titles won squarely and fairly on the field of play, but if the last five years has taught us anything, its that Scotland is a country consumed with hatred'.



A unanimous verdict against them in the highest court in the land, but it's all a conspiracy against The Rangers, who won those trophies 'fairly and squarely'. They are head cases.

[Ozyhibby]

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I see Sir David Murray has released a statement decrying the Supreme Court verdict. What a surprise.

In it, Murray claims the court decision "will be greeted with dismay by ordinary creditors of the club (as was), many of whom are small businesses, who will now receive a much lower distribution in the liquidation of the club than may otherwise have been the case." So whose to blame for that SDM?

Just like the hard pressed British taxpayer was deprived of revenue by his EBTs. Presumably HMRC will now pursue those individuals for any tax payable?

"Liquidation of the club"


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[FilipinoHibs]

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I've just had an unpleasant thought. If Rangers are stripped of their titles I assume that the teams coming second in the relevant years are credited with winning the league in those seasons. A brief look at the records shows a certain Gorgie club as runners up at least once.

Think Hearts need to be stripped of their three SCs as won with money they did not have and never paid back.

[Crazyhorse]

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Not quite correct.

Lord Hodge said in today's judgement;

"The legislative code for the taxation of income has developed over time to reflect changing governmental policies in relation to taxation, to remove loopholes in the tax regime and to respond to the behaviour of taxpayers. Such responses include the enactment of provisions to nullify the effects of otherwise successful tax avoidance schemes (or schemes which were apparently successful pending a definitive judicial determination)."

What this means is that when the EBTs were being used they were regarded by the users as successful avoidance schemes, or at least were not unsuccessful. HMRC had the opposing view. Until today, the definitive judicial determination is that the scheme failed to have the tax effect that the promoters designed for. Until today, there was no authority for saying what was done in 2001 to 2009 was anything other than attempt at effective tax planning. The judicial process has now decided that the steps taken in the avoidance scheme were not sufficient to have the effect for income tax purposes that they were intended to have.

The LNS 'judgement' was along the lines I've mentioned here, I think. No one could say with any legal authority, at the relevant time, that what the huns did was wrong.

Well now that we have an actual decision on this issue backed up by the highest 'legal authority' perhaps they should have stated that this aspect of their judgement would need to be deferred until there was legal guidance?

[Hibernia&Alba]

All other clubs in Scotland should release a joint statement demanding an independent inquiry with the power to make formal recommendations of sanctions to the SFA. Take the initiative here.

[Crazyhorse]

[QUOTE=heretoday;5091382]I've just had an unpleasant thought. If Rangers are stripped of their titles I assume that the teams coming second in the relevant years are credited with winning the league in those seasons. A brief look at the records shows a certain Gorgie club as runners up at least once.[/QUO

You could recalculate the league removing all dead Rangers results.

Anyone know what happened when Juve were stripped of their title?

[Hibernia&Alba]

[QUOTE=Crazyhorse;5091432]

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I've just had an unpleasant thought. If Rangers are stripped of their titles I assume that the teams coming second in the relevant years are credited with winning the league in those seasons. A brief look at the records shows a certain Gorgie club as runners up at least once.[/QUO

You could recalculate the league removing all dead Rangers results.

Anyone know what happened when Juve were stripped of their title?

Weren't Inter awarded several of Juve's titles?

[livi hibs 1875]

[QUOTE=Crazyhorse;5091432]

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I've just had an unpleasant thought. If Rangers are stripped of their titles I assume that the teams coming second in the relevant years are credited with winning the league in those seasons. A brief look at the records shows a certain Gorgie club as runners up at least once.[/QUO

You could recalculate the league removing all dead Rangers results.

Anyone know what happened when Juve were stripped of their title?

They got the title stripped and it was not reassigned I think, just checked and this on wiki ,Stripped of the 2004–05 Serie A title
• 2004–05 title not assigned
• Downgraded to last place in the 2005–06 championship (title given to Inter) and relegation to Serie B.

[bigwheel]

I'm going to be out on my own in this one but feel this is a very difficult topic to apportion blame ...despite wanting the Huns to be pilloried for any remote reason ...it's hard to suggest retrospective punishment here. They took an approach to minimise the tax position of their players and employees...that tax approach would have been subject to advice from many experts..and they went forward on that basis.. it was not at the time views as illegal..in fact it seems to have been in line with the then HMRC guidance . HMRC have won this case that sets a precedent that this was wrong , not allowable ..actually. That is quite unique about the HMRC - they win cases that allows retrospective impacts - they do it in other fields too - such as the handling of contractor status ..which can create previous year's liabilities for individuals and employers ...

Feels to me unfair actually that the HMRC can win cases which impact the past - it would be more fair to force people to change with immediate effect ...

That said , GIRUY Sevco.

[MichaelTheCelt]

Celtic Statement

WE note today’s decision by the Supreme Court. Celtic's position on this issue has been consistent - that this has always been a matter for the courts of law and also the Scottish football authorities, whose rules are intended to uphold sporting integrity.

In 2013, we expressed surprise - shared by many observers and supporters of the game - over the findings of the SPL Commission that no competitive or sporting advantage had resulted. Today’s decision only re-affirms that view.

We are sure now that the footballing authorities in Scotland will wish to review this matter. Celtic awaits the outcome of their review.


http://www.celticfc.net/news/12873

[Ozyhibby]

How can it just be 'effective tax planning' as suggested in a couple of posts above if it required the concealment of 2nd contracts from both HMRC and the SFA?



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[chinaman]

[QUOTE=Hibernia&Alba;5091437]

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Weren't Inter awarded several of Juve's titles?

2 titles

[High-On-Hibs]

How can The Rangers be stripped of their titles when they haven't yet won any?

[Hibernia&Alba]

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Celtic Statement

WE note today’s decision by the Supreme Court. Celtic's position on this issue has been consistent - that this has always been a matter for the courts of law and also the Scottish football authorities, whose rules are intended to uphold sporting integrity.

In 2013, we expressed surprise - shared by many observers and supporters of the game - over the findings of the SPL Commission that no competitive or sporting advantage had resulted. Today’s decision only re-affirms that view.

We are sure now that the footballing authorities in Scotland will wish to review this matter. Celtic awaits the outcome of their review.


http://www.celticfc.net/news/12873

I've just written the Hibs statement:

'You dirty cheating *******, you've been rumbled. Hand back the trophies and here's a seven figure fine for bringing the game into disrepute. Hibernian FC says GIRFUY'.

[Spike Mandela]

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Celtic Statement

WE note today’s decision by the Supreme Court. Celtic's position on this issue has been consistent - that this has always been a matter for the courts of law and also the Scottish football authorities, whose rules are intended to uphold sporting integrity.

In 2013, we expressed surprise - shared by many observers and supporters of the game - over the findings of the SPL Commission that no competitive or sporting advantage had resulted. Today’s decision only re-affirms that view.

We are sure now that the footballing authorities in Scotland will wish to review this matter. Celtic awaits the outcome of their review.


http://www.celticfc.net/news/12873

Booomm!!!!

Over to whitewash central at the SFA.

[Ozyhibby]

Good on Celtic. I wish we would do the same.


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[Smartie]

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I've just had an unpleasant thought. If Rangers are stripped of their titles I assume that the teams coming second in the relevant years are credited with winning the league in those seasons. A brief look at the records shows a certain Gorgie club as runners up at least once.

[QUOTE=livi hibs 1875;5091439]

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They got the title stripped and it was not reassigned I think, just checked and this on wiki ,Stripped of the 2004–05 Serie A title
• 2004–05 title not assigned
• Downgraded to last place in the 2005–06 championship (title given to Inter) and relegation to Serie B.

[QUOTE=Hibernia&Alba;5091437]

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Weren't Inter awarded several of Juve's titles?

This is one of the problems I have with the idea of stripping titles.

I'm reasonably comfortable with the concept of titles being scratched from the record.

But could anyone, anywhere seriously say that any sort of justice had been done if a title was taken from Rangers for financial doping then award to Hearts? Yes, that financially super pumped Hearts side that was created with funds way beyond their means and is probably still being paid for by Lithuanian pensioners.

It was a murky, dark period for Scottish football full stop. There many clubs "at it". Rangers, Hearts, Motherwell, Dundee, Gretna......Many clubs lived beyond their means, gained a sporting advantage and paid for it by stiffing small businesses and creditors. How many games during that period were genuinely played on a level playing field? Not many, and Rangers were far from alone in their misdeeds.

There will be clubs like Celtic, Hibs and St Johnstone who should come out of that period with their heads held high and their dignity intact, which in many ways counts for a bit more than a few tainted trophies. Winning a trophy by cheating ain't that great, winning one for coming second irrespective of the circumstances isn't really something to shout about either.

Rather than scratching around trying to re-write the record books from a decade ago, the only priority for me is ensuring that our current set of rules and our current set of people enforcing them stand up to scrutiny. I'm not entirely sure they do.

[MichaelTheCelt]

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Good on Celtic. I wish we would do the same.


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I was just about to say over to you Hibernian....

Same goes for Aberdeen, Partick Thistle, Dundee United and so on and so on.

Titles stripped null and void massive asterisk beside those years.

For what it's worth I don't doubt Lawell and Leanne Dempster and co have spoken about this outcome and what to do next. More to come I think.

[Dalianwanda]

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I was just about to say over to you Hibernian....

Same goes for Aberdeen, Partick Thistle, Dundee United and so on and so on.

Titles stripped null and void massive asterisk beside those years.

For what it's worth I don't doubt Lawell and Leanne Dempster and co have spoken about this outcome and what to do next. More to come I think.

If that was the case I really don't understand why there wasn't a joint statement put out...Show that it's not just a Celtic thing but a whole of Scottish Football thing..

[Smartie]

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I was just about to say over to you Hibernian....

Same goes for Aberdeen, Partick Thistle, Dundee United and so on and so on.

Titles stripped null and void massive asterisk beside those years.

For what it's worth I don't doubt Lawell and Leanne Dempster and co have spoken about this outcome and what to do next. More to come I think.

A lot of the chairmen and women of Scottish football are pretty cosy though. Yes, Rangers have gone out on a limb over the past few years but there is still probably a working relationship that exists with them. I'd be surprised if there is a natural appetite amongst the the teams other than Celtic to do much.

A quick glance around a few message boards though and it becomes clear that the fans of all clubs feel very strongly about this matter. Fan power brought about a big change 5 years or so ago and it might well do the same again.

[hughio]

[QUOTE=Smartie;5091457][QUOTE=livi hibs 1875;5091439]

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This is one of the problems I have with the idea of stripping titles.

I'm reasonably comfortable with the concept of titles being scratched from the record.

But could anyone, anywhere seriously say that any sort of justice had been done if a title was taken from Rangers for financial doping then award to Hearts? Yes, that financially super pumped Hearts side that was created with funds way beyond their means and is probably still being paid for by Lithuanian pensioners.

It was a murky, dark period for Scottish football full stop. There many clubs "at it". Rangers, Hearts, Motherwell, Dundee, Gretna......Many clubs lived beyond their means, gained a sporting advantage and paid for it by stiffing small businesses and creditors. How many games during that period were genuinely played on a level playing field? Not many, and Rangers were far from alone in their misdeeds.

There will be clubs like Celtic, Hibs and St Johnstone who should come out of that period with their heads held high and their dignity intact, which in many ways counts for a bit more than a few tainted trophies. Winning a trophy by cheating ain't that great, winning one for coming second irrespective of the circumstances isn't really something to shout about either.

Rather than scratching around trying to re-write the record books from a decade ago, the only priority for me is ensuring that our current set of rules and our current set of people enforcing them stand up to scrutiny. I'm not entirely sure they do.