Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[Hibernia&Alba]

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Jury come into court. Judge says one juror is ill today so case cannot proceed
Proceedings adjourned until tomorrow

Oh well, suppose I'll have to work instead

Is said juror Mr William McWilliams from Larkhall?

[GreenLake]

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https://stv.tv/news/west-central/138...-in-singapore/

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Maybe he tried to start a far east version of Rangers. "Chee Ting Bah Stars"

[Jack Hackett]

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Jury come into court. Judge says one juror is ill today so case cannot proceed
Proceedings adjourned until tomorrow

Oh well, suppose I'll have to work instead

Booooo!... on all counts

[Moulin Yarns]

WE're back up and running


Findlay: "In 2009 you entrusted theclub to Mr Johnson and other members of the board" adds "RangersFootball Club was close to your heart"

Findlay "when you handed over the clubyou had a plan" Murray "it was a static plan"

Findlay asks how much investment was putinto Rangers after 2009, "Would none be the answer"? Murray "Wasvery little"

Findlay condition of sale was that the bankdebt be eliminated "It was an integral part" Adds small tax case andmoney for stadium also

Murray says his advisors "spoke to meabout the shape of the deal"

Witness shown "Share PurchaseAgreement" between Murray and Whyte, says purchaser will"attempt" to invest £20m Finday "not a commitment"

Murray says he took this as an obligation







Findlay asks if RFC board were "actingwith fiscal prudence" Murray "I assume so" Defence QC showsdocument on screen



Document is an email from Alistair JohnsonDiscussing "how to go forward with the bank" after interim results



Says divisions in the board have been"Exacerbated”



Email: Johnson talks about the necessity ofa "liquidity event" Murray "Alistair was concerned with futurerelationship with the bank"



Email: "unnoficial parties at thebehest of Craig Whyte have been contacting employees for information"



Email continues "Serious issues aboutthe maintenance and upkeep of Ibrox stadium" Murray "That's hisopinion"



Witness shown copy of a submission he gaveduring a legal case states: "I was not aware Martin Bain's notice periodwas 39 months"



Findlay: "The chairman extended theCEO's notice period to 39 months and didn't even tell you"?



Murray "The facts you have given thismorning don't make good reading (you could say!!)



Findlay "You were let down by peoplewho didn't have a clue"? Murray: The facts are there for others tojudge"



Findlay asks Murray about Dave King,witness confirms he was on the board

[Moulin Yarns]

1. Murray shownnote from Dave King to the takeover panel dated April 2011:
Kingnote to takeover panel is about Whyte's bid says King is "concerned aboutthe source of funds, mentions possible police investigation" (Dave Murray knew!!)
King note "I was approached 10 yearsago to make investment in the club" "After personal discussion withMr Murray" agreed to £5m

Later raised investment to £20m,"asked for assurances 1) Be on the board 2) Not dispose of shareholdingwithout consultation.

Murray says King had "everyopportunity" to buy the club before Whyte came along. Meeting organised inLondon "but he didn't do it"

Murray says King himself removed hisshareholding from Murray sport "signed a piece of paper" to transferto himself

King note questions "The financialstability of the business" notes Murray group in "financialdifficulty" rfc "caught up in damage control"

[Moulin Yarns]

King note to takeover panel complainsMurray has caused "value destruction" mentions meeting Murray Witnessdoesn't recall conversation


Looks like we are getting to the nittygritty----

King note expresses concern "a zerovalue exit would create value for Murray" Murray "that's just nottrue, there is no proof of that"

King note says Murray was"manipulating the bank debt" "Absolute rubbish" the witnessreplies."No truth in that at all"

King note says Murray "isolatedme" Murray says King was in next door office "he chose to walk outthe door without meeting me"

King says the Whyte takeover had "Notransparency to the Rangers board" Murray replies he wasn't on the boardat the time

Murray "Everything was open and honestas we'll find out as we go through this process"

Findlay asks Murray if King note was just"blatant lies" "It's all in the paperwork" witness replies

Letter 25 Oct 2011 Letter from Dave King toCraig Whyte. Formal letter setting out claim for damages against RangersFootball Club ltd

Letter notes investment of £20m by "atrust I am beneficiary of"

King letter of claim says company"managed in a manner that was against the interests of the company..information kept from me"

King claim was for £20m "the value ofhis investment"

[JimBHibees]

Martin Bain's notice period was extended to 39 months. Simply wow.

You just know Minty is going to come out of this without anything sticking on him.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Apologies for going back a few years and hundreds of pages on this thread , but, can I just ask this: when Rangers were liquidated, were they expelled from the league or did they resign​ their membership? Cheers.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Apologies for going back a few years and hundreds of pages on this thread , but, can I just ask this: when Rangers were liquidated, were they expelled from the league or did they resign​ their membership? Cheers.

The company that owned the club hasn't yet been liquidated. However, when it went into liquidation, its membership (ie share) of the SPL was, first of all, sold on to the new company. This shouldn't have happened, as it should have been returned to the SPL itself. The share was then returned to the SPL, and Dundee acquired it.

To answer your question, the membership of the SPL just "ceased to be". .. which probably disny help.

[Moulin Yarns]

Murray says of King "I cannot rememberand major issues he had during my chairmanship" adds not working for bankbut to "win trophies

Findlay asksabout King's complaint over tax scheme "We put in the accounts...Mr Kingcould have read the accounts"

In letter King says tax scheme allowedRangers to live on a"false economic basis for a long period of time"Says would have opposed

Murray notes Dave King had been on theboard since 2002, "EBT" tax scheme since 2000 not challenged

King: misled about retail deal, saystransaction "significantly weakened the club" Findlay "was thata lie"? Murray "It's not true


Murray says during transfers out Rangerswere "taking the money early" to help the club, which led to a"discount for funds at present"

Murray "I can't think of manybusiness​ plans that go 100%"

Findlay "Mr King was on the board thattook the club to a shambles of a playing squad and all the rest...now saying'not me guv'?"

Court rises for morning break (thankgoodness, goes for a pee and coffee)

[JeMeSouviens]

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Apologies for going back a few years and hundreds of pages on this thread , but, can I just ask this: when Rangers were liquidated, were they expelled from the league or did they resign​ their membership? Cheers.

Effectively the latter. When their CVA failed, Rangers gave notice to the SPL that they were ceasing to operate. Sevco Scotland applied to the SPL to have Rangers' SPL share transferred to them but the other members voted against allowing it.

https://stv.tv/sport/football/clubs/...-member-share/
http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/18703183

Sevco Scotland then applied to the Scottish Football League and were admitted to the 3rd division after their members voted against a proposal to parachute the new club in at Div 1. Subsequently they applied to and were given a new temporary membership of the SFA, before renaming themselves "Rangers" and having the old Rangers membership of the SFA transferred to them under the conditions of the infamous 5-way agreement (basically they agreed to honour the old club's debts to other football bodies/clubs and to inherit any punishments meted out to the old Rangers).

[Hibernia&Alba]

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The company that owned the club hasn't yet been liquidated. However, when it went into liquidation, its membership (ie share) of the SPL was, first of all, sold on to the new company. This shouldn't have happened, as it should have been returned to the SPL itself. The share was then returned to the SPL, and Dundee acquired it.

To answer your question, the membership of the SPL just "ceased to be". .. which probably disny help.

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Effectively the latter. When their CVA failed, Rangers gave notice to the SPL that they were ceasing to operate. Sevco Scotland applied to the SPL to have Rangers' SPL share transferred to them but the other members voted against allowing it.

https://stv.tv/sport/football/clubs/...-member-share/
http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/18703183

Sevco Scotland then applied to the Scottish Football League and were admitted to the 3rd division after their members voted against a proposal to parachute the new club in at Div 1. Subsequently they applied to and were given a new temporary membership of the SFA, before renaming themselves "Rangers" and having the old Rangers membership of the SFA transferred to them under the conditions of the infamous 5-way agreement (basically they agreed to honour the old club's debts to other football bodies/clubs and to inherit any punishments meted out to the old Rangers).

Cheers guys. That's a help

So much has happened, it's hard to see the wood for the trees.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Cheers guys. That's a help

So much has happened, it's hard to see the wood for the trees.

What ****ing trees?

[CropleyWasGod]

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Murray says of King "I cannot rememberand major issues he had during my chairmanship" adds not working for bankbut to "win trophies

Findlay asksabout King's complaint over tax scheme "We put in the accounts...Mr Kingcould have read the accounts"

In letter King says tax scheme allowedRangers to live on a"false economic basis for a long period of time"Says would have opposed

Murray notes Dave King had been on theboard since 2002, "EBT" tax scheme since 2000 not challenged

King: misled about retail deal, saystransaction "significantly weakened the club" Findlay "was thata lie"? Murray "It's not true


Murray says during transfers out Rangerswere "taking the money early" to help the club, which led to a"discount for funds at present"

Murray "I can't think of manybusiness​ plans that go 100%"

Findlay "Mr King was on the board thattook the club to a shambles of a playing squad and all the rest...now saying'not me guv'?"

Court rises for morning break (thankgoodness, goes for a pee and coffee)

Cheers for the updates.

I can't help thinking..... WTF has this to do with the case against CW? Thus far, it sounds like blood-letting between SDM, CW, DK and DF.... which is all lovely, of course.

[Ozyhibby]

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Cheers for the updates.

I can't help thinking..... WTF has this to do with the case against CW? Thus far, it sounds like blood-letting between SDM, CW, DK and DF.... which is all lovely, of course.

Craig Whyte will be trying to prove that Rangers were in a far worse state than he had been led to believe by Murray when he bought them and that's why he had to borrow from ticketus and stop paying HMRC.
I think.


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[Moulin Yarns]

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Cheers for the updates.

I can't help thinking..... WTF has this to do with the case against CW? Thus far, it sounds like blood-letting between SDM, CW, DK and DF.... which is all lovely, of course.

I was wondering as well, but DK is the only one still 'involved' in the institution, which might be relevant.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Craig Whyte will be trying to prove that Rangers were in a far wait se state than he had been led to believe by Murray when he bought them and that's why he had to borrow from ticketus and stop paying HMRC.
I think.


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Maybe.

But the fact remains he defrauded the club. The Crown have an open goal here, and DF seems to be doing his best to obscure that by making it into a soap opera.

[Moulin Yarns]

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Craig Whyte will be trying to prove that Rangers were in a far worse state than he had been led to believe by Murray when he bought them and that's why he had to borrow from ticketus and stop paying HMRC.
I think.


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Good thinking Oz

[Moulin Yarns]

Witness shown new document: email 18 April2011 from Alistair Johnson to the board, mentions "mutual understandingand respect" with Whyte

Email says D Murray "Threatened PaulMurray he was going to contact press association over board blockingtakeover."

Murray says he was careful talking to themedia

Murray denies "threatening email fromone of his staff to Johnson" bankers just lay out facts he notes

Findlay notes Rangers were in more debtthan bank allowed Murray: "that would seem to be the case"

Findlay says Paul Murray takeover bid hadno chance "There was no proof of funds" witness replies Findlay"mysterious underwriter"

1. Witness saysPaul Murray bid "was never taken seriously"
Findlay moves on to contact between Murrayand Whyte after takeover

Murray says he made a mistake when hetestified that he found out about Ticketus deal in December 2012, was Dec2011/Jan 2012

17 Nov 2011 Murray letter to Whyte. Witnesssays "That's prior to me knowing about Ticketus"

SMS messages between Murray and Whyte 26November 2011, Whyte to Murray arranging lunch in Monaco. Was to discuss letterwitness says

Murray letter to Whyte notes he had said hewould "consider administration, but only as a last resort"

Murray says he received proof of fundsletter from Whyte's solicitors, but it was "unsigned"

Murray letter asks Whyte to release £2.8mfor tax case and £5m for playing squad

Findlay notes letter says administration"was not a route you [Whyte] would want to pursue"

Murray asked about pre-trial dispositionabout dinner with Walter Smith in Edinburgh. Murray can't recall if theydiscussed administration

Findlay "you have no memory ofdiscussion the administration of Rangers with anyone prior to thetakeover"? "Yes"

Findlay "There was a discussion on theboard about pre-pack administration"? Murray "I remember thatyes"

Findlay to Murray "I have a copy ofeverything" puts to him he told Crown "I did consider pre-packadministration" "I dismissed it"

Murray "I'm not playing tricks"Judge "I'm not playing tricks either but did you consider it"? Murrayagrees he has given it thought *had*

Findlay asks Murray if at any point in timedid anyone tell him Whyte was looking at outside finance "I don't recallthat"

Findlay shows Murray an email 7 April 2011to him , states "DG firm writing CW to advise HMRC will considerpayability" DG, David Grier

Email "DG let slip that this opinionwas required for CW other investors" Findlay "clear indication Whytehad other investors"

Findlay "you knew" Murray "Idon't recall the details"

Witness shown notes by a David Horn from3/11/2010 States: "Octopus meeting discussing CW £15m possiblefacility" "CW may be looking for a partner"

Findlay notes Octopus was Ticketus"one of your closest advisors was aware Whyte was looking at finance"Murray says not aware of that

Murray adds "I can't comment I haven'tseen the note" says Horn never told him

More notes from Horn re "projectCharlotte" "HMRC aware not going to get any money, wantprecedent"

[Keith_M]

Murray and Smith have both had an amazingly similar loss of memory about any (uncomfortable) details as regards their beloved Rangers.


"I don't recall"

"I don't remember"


They don't want to tell the truth but they also don't want to perjure themselves in court.

[Ozyhibby]

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Murray and Smith have both had an amazingly similar loss of memory about any (uncomfortable) details as regards their beloved Rangers.


"I don't recall"

"I don't remember"


They don't want to tell the truth but they also don't want to perjure themselves in court.

The more they say it the better it gets for Craig Whyte.


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[AndyM_1875]

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Apologies for going back a few years and hundreds of pages on this thread , but, can I just ask this: when Rangers were liquidated, were they expelled from the league or did they resign​ their membership? Cheers.

I recall the words of the great moustache himself our very own Rod when I asked him a similar question.
"Rangers were placed beyond football and it was all their own fault".

Rod in March 2012 http://www.scotsman.com/sport/footba...rity-1-2156674

and again http://www.scotsman.com/sport/footba...cost-1-2294135

[Seveno]

The letter from Whyte's Solicitors confirming that he had funds was unsigned!

What fun, wish I was there.

[Keith_M]

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The letter from Whyte's Solicitors confirming that he had funds was unsigned!

What fun, wish I was there.

I would love to hear the justification for accepting such 'proof'.



Any mention of him having 'wealth off the radar' yet?

[lord bunberry]

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The letter from Whyte's Solicitors confirming that he had funds was unsigned!

What fun, wish I was there.

I wonder if Whyte's solicitor is a Nigerian prince.

[Kato]

Pretty good so far. Wonder Findlay has any tastier docs.

[Moulin Yarns]

Murray repeats he has never seen the noteFindlay notes "one of your closest advisors is contemplatingadministration "Did nobody tell you

Murray: I wasn't aware of the note..is aninternal note he wrote for himself..you can ask him" Findlay "Iappreciate loyalty Sir David"

Murray shown letter to takeover panel frontMurray's lawyers​, meeting between David Murray and Craig Whyte Oct 2010

Murray says meeting was "at my housein the South of France"

Letter confirms to takeover panel no-onewas "working in concert" was an informal meeting to buildrapport"

Lunch break

[Moulin Yarns]

Findlay Asks Murray about statement"categorically we would not have done deal" if knew about Ticketus

In pre-trial deposition Murray said "Icannot comment what my reaction would have been as is hypotheticalquestion"

Murray asks about Jack Irvine. Murray saysworked on newspaper together, one of his staff, Ramsey Smith, worked on PR forRangers'

Murray shown email from Jack Irvine to GaryWithey, Whyte's lawyer, 25 May 2011 "For your eyes only "

Email appears to be a business pitch toCraig Whyte Findlay says

"Business side of Glasgow footballclubs is a snake pit"

My 15 year association with Craig has beenon an on and off relationship"

Offers to be personal adviser to Whyte

Then lists various work he had done

"I have learned one thing fromfootball, normal rules of business dies not apply"

Says Murray briefed the press daily,briefed behind managers back

Murray says he had supported managers Whatprice loyality over money Findlay asks?

Findlay says he is finishing off. Asks ifMurray group if he received any benefit from sale of Rangers? "No director immediate benefit"

[Moulin Yarns]

11 Jan 2011letter to Lloyd's bank from Murray "In terms of restructuring, we havemade progress" Requests "release" of metals business
Lloyd's reply: We do not regard metalsbusiness as work in progress re sale of RFC in April" Findlay asked iflinked?

1. Murray says hisaim was to protect 3000 jobs, rejects any suggestion him buying back metalbusiness was linked to Rangers sale
Findlayasks if any staff got bonus for sale of Rangers, Murray says two people did,Horn and Martin Bain.
Mike McGill email to Murray, says AlistairJohnson did not want board minutes to be given to prospective purchaser as"too sensitive"

Adds might have to "clear out theboard" Murray describes this as "shadow boxing"

Murray "A board of directors can belike a family, there can be splits and disagreements"

5 April 11 email from McGill "I don't think thepurchaser has the resources...we have no idea if they have the funds to run theclub"

[Is It On....]

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Maybe.

But the fact remains he defrauded the club. The Crown have an open goal here, and DF seems to be doing his best to obscure that by making it into a soap opera.

What is the case for Craig Whyte defrauding the club?