Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[greenginger]

Corals win the relegation case.

[Greenworld]

I
Have they finished or on a break

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[Ozyhibby]

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No idea who he is but he is clearly making the case for HMRC.

He is BDO's lawyer.


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[Moulin Yarns]

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He is BDO's lawyer.


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He seems to keep losing his place.

[Ozyhibby]

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[Smartie]

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Very carefully written to avoid stating anywhere that Rangers ceased to be.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Very carefully written to avoid stating anywhere that Rangers ceased to be.

... as it should be.

[Geo_1875]

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... as it should be.

But we know the truth.

[CropleyWasGod]

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But we know the truth.

Nah, you misunderstand my post.

I meant that the whole question has to be the subject of a separate Court case, not tacked on at the end of some sideshow. We want a big production.

[Ozyhibby]

http://thecelticblog.com/2017/03/blo...ted-game-over/


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[ballengeich]

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Very carefully written to avoid stating anywhere that Rangers ceased to be.

There's a sentence in the judgment that seems to me to imply that Rangers continued under new ownership :-

"The administrators of The Rangers Football Club Plc sold substantially the whole of the business and undertaking of that company, including that aspect of the business which consisted of the operation of the football team named “Rangers”, to SEVCO Scotland Limited on 14 June 2012."

[Geo_1875]

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There's a sentence in the judgment that seems to me to imply that Rangers continued under new ownership :-

"The administrators of The Rangers Football Club Plc sold substantially the whole of the business and undertaking of that company, including that aspect of the business which consisted of the operation of the football team named “Rangers”, to SEVCO Scotland Limited on 14 June 2012."

Then why didn't TUPE apply to their staff?

[Ozyhibby]

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There's a sentence in the judgment that seems to me to imply that Rangers continued under new ownership :-

"The administrators of The Rangers Football Club Plc sold substantially the whole of the business and undertaking of that company, including that aspect of the business which consisted of the operation of the football team named “Rangers”, to SEVCO Scotland Limited on 14 June 2012."

Substantially is the key word there. What was missing was the old club.


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[CropleyWasGod]

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Substantially is the key word there. What was missing was the old club.


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"including that aspect of the business which consisted of the operation of the football team named “Rangers”"

[grunt]

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"including that aspect of the business which consisted of the operation of the football team named “Rangers”"

So they're not a new club then?

[ballengeich]

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So they're not a new club then?

It depends what you mean by a club. The word has different meanings in different places. For example, a golfer who asks his caddy for a club doesn't expect to be handed a chocolate biscuit.

In law a club is an unincorporated group of individuals. A company is a different beast entirely so legally the company now operating a football club at Ibrox is neither the same club as before 2012 nor a different one. At a hearing where Charles Green was trying to get the new company to pay his legal fees one of the judges described the concept of a continuing club as being "a metaphysical concept" i.e. something different from just the registered company and that's where the whole difficulty in resolving the question lies.

As supporters we have an emotional connection to something which, for me, is not the plc running Hibs. The reason that the whole debate has gone on so long is that neither side of the debate ever defines adequately what a club is so they don't have an agreed starting position to argue about.

[greenginger]

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"including that aspect of the business which consisted of the operation of the football team named “Rangers”"

If a quality cuisine Michelin Star restaurant goes broke and an adminstrator sells the business to Fast Food Freddy who opens a burger joint in the same premises using the same ovens and equipment does he get to keep the Michelin Stars ?

[grunt]

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A company is a different beast entirely so legally the company now operating a football club at Ibrox is neither the same club as before 2012 nor a different one.

Ok. This is the point where I officially give up.

[jacomo]

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"including that aspect of the business which consisted of the operation of the football team named “Rangers”"

What a tortuous piece of legalese that is.

The 'operation' had ceased. They couldn't pay their bills. Employees got transferred over to a new operation. I don't think this is disputed.

I know your opinion on this and - emotionally, spiritually, whatever - of course it is the same Rangers (albeit in zombie form).

They can even bang on about their history.

But what they cannot do is claim they were relegated or punished by the other clubs. They weren't. They died and had to be brought back to life.

[sleeping giant]

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Ok. This is the point where I officially give up.

[Nameless]

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If a quality cuisine Michelin Star restaurant goes broke and an adminstrator sells the business to Fast Food Freddy who opens a burger joint in the same premises using the same ovens and equipment does he get to keep the Michelin Stars ?

That's the best explanation I've read - very succinct.

[Iggy Pope]

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If a quality cuisine Michelin Star restaurant goes broke and an adminstrator sells the business to Fast Food Freddy who opens a burger joint in the same premises using the same ovens and equipment does he get to keep the Michelin Stars ?

Ozyhibby guy might know the answer to this. He enjoys drawing these restaurant analogy things.If I found that my favourite restaurant was taken over by Freddy Fast I'd never be away from my Netflix.

[ian cruise]

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What a tortuous piece of legalese that is.

The 'operation' had ceased. They couldn't pay their bills. Employees got transferred over to a new operation. I don't think this is disputed.

I know your opinion on this and - emotionally, spiritually, whatever - of course it is the same Rangers (albeit in zombie form).

They can even bang on about their history.

But what they cannot do is claim they were relegated or punished by the other clubs. They weren't. They died and had to be brought back to life.

This is where I stand, they can be the same Rangers and keep the titles for all I care but they were absolutely not relegated or made to start in the third division as a punishment. They were part of a new holding company and asked to join the league. They were told they could but would have to start in third division. They should be happy they were allowed that given they didn't meet the criteria but we still get this relegation lie from all and sundry

[Newry Hibs]

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That's the best explanation I've read - very succinct.

Or succulent?

[Nameless]

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Or succulent?

Full of juicy details.

[Smartie]

[QUOTE=ballengeich;4979507A company is a different beast entirely so legally the company now operating a football club at Ibrox is neither the same club as before 2012 nor a different one. [/QUOTE]

Schrodinger's huns?

[CropleyWasGod]

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If a quality cuisine Michelin Star restaurant goes broke and an adminstrator sells the business to Fast Food Freddy who opens a burger joint in the same premises using the same ovens and equipment does he get to keep the Michelin Stars ?

If they paid for the stars, yup 😎

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[CropleyWasGod]

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This is where I stand, they can be the same Rangers and keep the titles for all I care but they were absolutely not relegated or made to start in the third division as a punishment. They were part of a new holding company and asked to join the league. They were told they could but would have to start in third division. They should be happy they were allowed that given they didn't meet the criteria but we still get this relegation lie from all and sundry

Today's judgement has nailed the relegation issue, though.

Until it's appealled, of course. 😁

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[Deansy]

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Today's judgement has nailed the relegation issue, though.

Until it's appealled, of course. ��

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Or quite simply ignored - which is pretty much guaranteed the approach our entire 'media' will take.

[northstandhibby]

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If they paid for the stars, yup ��

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Would this subtle change of ownership of the stars be considered a metaphysical concept?

Fast Freddy may own the stars having purchased them however he has not earned them with the folk seeing them in his restaurant assuming he had indeed earned them when in reality the prior owner of the restaurant had earned them instead.

Additionally a Judge would not be in a position to rule on the conundrum of oldco/newco without having heard firstly from a number of philosophers who are experts on the subject of metaphysical concepts.