Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[greenginger]

[QUOTE=doddsy;4628152]

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I'm no accountant as I said previously but the 22 mill cushion takes the heat off greatly. I was'nt aware of that.

Of course, Big Hands got his big hands on some of the cushion before it reached RIFC.

[JeMeSouviens]

Hunners of numbers for CWG:

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/busines...E3eyi88euhM.97

(Warning: may contain traces of Hun).

[Moulin Yarns]

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Hunners of numbers for CWG:

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/busines...E3eyi88euhM.97

(Warning: may contain traces of Hun).

The Rangers Football Club Ltd (TRFCL) has reported an 11 per cent increase in operating losses to £9.04 million for the 2015 year to June 30.

The company, which notes it principal activities are operating a professional football club in Scotland and its commercial activities, notes debts to its parent company Rangers International Football Club Plc (RIFC) also rose 16 per cent to £18.1 million (2014: £15.6 million).

Read more at http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/busines...0R5mSjYSkTE.99

A loss of £9m and debt owed to themselves of £18m!! not pretty

[CropleyWasGod]

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Hunners of numbers for CWG:

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/busines...E3eyi88euhM.97

(Warning: may contain traces of Hun).

These aren't new figures.

They were published last year (November?). The DR has picked up on them because they have been submitted to Companies House.

The Daily Record. First with the, uh, old news.....

[doddsy]

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These aren't new figures.

They were published last year (November?). The DR has picked up on them because they have been submitted to Companies House.

The Daily Record. First with the, uh, old news.....

At first glance it appears very dodgy indeed. A club that owes 18 mill to it's parent company which is itself 29 mill in debt. Sounds very similar to the Hearts situation under Romanov. Debt piled upon debt which will ultimately never be repayed and we all know what happened with Romanov. Looks extremely suspicious. I am no accountant as I said previously but the Parent co setup seems a particular avenue to neverendum debt.

[CropleyWasGod]

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At first glance it appears very dodgy indeed. A club that owes 18 mill to it's parent company which is itself 29 mill in debt. Sounds very similar to the Hearts situation under Romanov. Debt piled upon debt which will ultimately never be repayed and we all know what happened with Romanov. Looks extremely suspicious. I am no accountant as I said previously but the Parent co setup seems a particular avenue to neverendum debt.

My problem is that these accounts are almost 9 months old.

Given how much has happened since then, they're almost worthless in trying to establish the current picture.

Edit... the £29m is not the parent company's debt. It's the football club's debt within 12 months, of which £18m is due to the parent company.

[Ozyhibby]

Is there a balance sheet?


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[CropleyWasGod]

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Is there a balance sheet?


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Yes, but it's 9 months old. These are the same accounts that were published a few months ago. There's nothing new in them.

[Ozyhibby]

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Yes, but it's 9 months old. These are the same accounts that were published a few months ago. There's nothing new in them.

Thought so. I take it it does not show how the Hong Kong money has been lent?


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[doddsy]

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My problem is that these accounts are almost 9 months old.

Given how much has happened since then, they're almost worthless in trying to establish the current picture.

Edit... the £29m is not the parent company's debt. It's the football club's debt within 12 months, of which £18m is due to the parent company.

I appreciate it must be a bit tiresome correcting me a good bit but i'm grateful for enlightening me as I am as you can see no accountant so thank you.

It appears they have set up a group collection of companies just like Romanov did. Entirely legal and the group's overall debt is taken as a whole instead of a normal football club being in hawk to an individual bank. The individual debts of the companies are shared across the group. Seems very similar to the Romanov situation but then as I keep saying I am no accountant and I am merely speculating and will trust in others to keep enlightening us.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Thought so. I take it it does not show how the Hong Kong money has been lent?


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Nah.

That's what was so dodgy about the 6 months accounts that they published. Unaudited, with no Balance Sheet....

[CropleyWasGod]

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I appreciate it must be a bit tiresome correcting me a good bit but i'm grateful for enlightening me as I am as you can see no accountant so thank you.

It appears they have set up a group collection of companies just like Romanov did. Entirely legal and the group's overall debt is taken as a whole instead of a normal football club being in hawk to an individual bank. The individual debts of the companies are shared across the group. Seems very similar to the Romanov situation but then as I keep saying I am no accountant and I am merely speculating and will trust in others to keep enlightening us.

Tiresome, no. Challenging, yeah

It's dissimilar to Romanov, in that there is no bank debt. Any debt is due to external "investors". Whilst the June 2015 accounts don't look too bad, they mask the fact that cash was low in relation to debts becoming due.

As Ozy says, the money from Hong Kong, and elsewhere, has come in since then. How that has been dealt with, what the repayment terms are, and how it affects current liquidity... we can't know, since they won't let us see a fricking Balance Sheet.

I'll say it again, though.... winning the case against Green must have been a relief to them. That could have been a game-changer, but I reckon they'll limp on now until ST time.

[Kato]

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It's dissimilar to Romanov, in that there is no bank debt.

Thing with Romanov there wasn't even really a bank, just a cash launderette he called "Ukio".

[doddsy]

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Tiresome, no. Challenging, yeah

It's dissimilar to Romanov, in that there is no bank debt. Any debt is due to external "investors". Whilst the June 2015 accounts don't look too bad, they mask the fact that cash was low in relation to debts becoming due.

As Ozy says, the money from Hong Kong, and elsewhere, has come in since then. How that has been dealt with, what the repayment terms are, and how it affects current liquidity... we can't know, since they won't let us see a fricking Balance Sheet.

I'll say it again, though.... winning the case against Green must have been a relief to them. That could have been a game-changer, but I reckon they'll limp on now until ST time.

Exellent. Yes at some point they are banking on a new share issue which the investers will be rewarded when the dust settles over the years ahead with new bank facilities and credit available. The income will be vastly improved by then and in calmer waters with new mugs sorry investers ready to plough in more money. They are playing the long game however there may be very choppy waters to still be negotiated in MA and CW in particular.

Green could still appeal to a higher court no?

[CropleyWasGod]

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Exellent. Yes at some point they are banking on a new share issue which the investers will be rewarded when the dust settles over the years ahead with new bank facilities and credit available. The income will be vastly improved by then and in calmer waters with new mugs sorry investers ready to plough in more money. They are playing the long game however there may be very choppy waters to still be negotiated in MA and CW in particular.

Green could still appeal to a higher court no?

Not sure if he could afford to.

Even if he does, it won't affect the short-term. They'll have started ST sales by then. That's why the timing of that case could have been so difficult for them.

[doddsy]

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Not sure if he could afford to.

Even if he does, it won't affect the short-term. They'll have started ST sales by then. That's why the timing of that case could have been so difficult for them.

Yes as in readies available. Exellent CWG.

[Moulin Yarns]

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Exellent. Yes at some point they are banking on a new share issue which the investers will be rewarded when the dust settles over the years ahead with new bank facilities and credit available. The income will be vastly improved by then and in calmer waters with new mugs sorry investers ready to plough in more money. They are playing the long game however there may be very choppy waters to still be negotiated in MA and CW in particular.

Green could still appeal to a higher court no?

They might have to spend some money themselves to buy up Mike Asley' shares.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/footba...orts-1-4079001

Unless HSL want to buy some

[doddsy]

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They might have to spend some money themselves to buy up Mike Asley' shares.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/footba...orts-1-4079001

Unless HSL want to buy some

Dave King and the SFA would be very happy at this news.

[high bee]

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They might have to spend some money themselves to buy up Mike Asley' shares.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/footba...orts-1-4079001

Unless HSL want to buy some

Seems like grasping at straws by the Scotsman. It says MA owns 8.92% and the football league won't let an owner have more than 10% in another team but his stake in their retail operation may force the league to act. There's no quotes to indicate the football league have even hinted at this.

[h185forever]

will they have to produce a balance sheet at some point ?

[CropleyWasGod]

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They might have to spend some money themselves to buy up Mike Asley' shares.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/footba...orts-1-4079001

Unless HSL want to buy some

The defence, of course, is that MA doesn't own the shares in RFC. It's actually MASH.

I'm not sure if that's the same with Newcastle.

[CropleyWasGod]

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will they have to produce a balance sheet at some point ?

Only for their year-end accounts..... or before then, if it suits them :)

[greenginger]

http://johnjamessite.com/

JJ has found some discrepancies between the RIFC and the TRFC accounts.

There are differences in the totals for the same period, but whether there is anything sinister is another matter.

[CropleyWasGod]

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http://johnjamessite.com/

JJ has found some discrepancies between the RIFC and the TRFC accounts.

There are differences in the totals for the same period, but whether there is anything sinister is another matter.

It's possible that he has ignored the effect of inter-company transactions. Those should be ignored in group accounts.

Eg. TRFC has sales of £100m, RIFC of £100m. However, RIFC has included in its £100m, £50m to TRFC.

Total group sales are therefore £150m.

Etc etc.

I have asked him about that... and also asked him "don't you think the auditors might pick up on any such discrepancies?"

[greenginger]

The turnover in TRFC and RIFC vary in Broadcast rights and other income headings.

There were similar, although smaller variations in the 2014 accounts.

I don't think JJ has unearthed anything to cause a Sevco meltdown.

[hibs0666]

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The turnover in TRFC and RIFC vary in Broadcast rights and other income headings.

There were similar, although smaller variations in the 2014 accounts.

I don't think JJ has unearthed anything to cause a Sevco meltdown.

Nothing new there then.

[doddsy]

It would appear that they have indeed gone down a somewhat similar route as per the Ubig Ukio situation in so much as readies supplied by the Parent as way of loans or similar will not be subject to re-payment. This has the added benefits of being main creditor if things went belly up similar to the Jambos avoiding liquidation with a CVA approved.

Seems those down Govan way have been either watching and learning from the wily Romanov or King CW CG and all the rest were already well versed on the avoidance of dropping down economic black holes when it goes tits up. It seems they know all the accountancy dodges.

There are those who know the Law and those who know how to avoid it if you get my drift.

[CropleyWasGod]

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It would appear that they have indeed gone down a somewhat similar route as per the Ubig Ukio situation in so much as readies supplied by the Parent as way of loans or similar will not be subject to re-payment. This has the added benefits of being main creditor if things went belly up similar to the Jambos avoiding liquidation with a CVA approved.

Seems those down Govan way have been either watching and learning from the wily Romanov or King CW CG and all the rest were already well versed on the avoidance of dropping down economic black holes when it goes tits up. It seems they know all the accountancy dodges.

There are those who know the Law and those who know how to avoid it if you get my drift.

It's fairly common for football clubs to have a parent company.....us, for example.

And, yes, the loans ARE repayable.... perhaps on less onerous terms than to a bank, but repayable nonetheless. Like ours.

[doddsy]

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It's fairly common for football clubs to have a parent company.....us, for example.

And, yes, the loans ARE repayable.... perhaps on less onerous terms than to a bank, but repayable nonetheless. Like ours.

Yes I agree with you CWG in so much that it has become inevitable football clubs have become businesses as well as clubs who simply play football. It means they have to become very clever in the way business works. Still people like King Murray Whyte Romanov etc sail very close to the wind would'nt you agree? Stick in the craws of the more honest business community.

[Ozyhibby]

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It's fairly common for football clubs to have a parent company.....us, for example.

And, yes, the loans ARE repayable.... perhaps on less onerous terms than to a bank, but repayable nonetheless. Like ours.

There is a chance they are on a lot more onerous terms as well.


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