Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[Deansy]

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It didn't originally but they have changed it now. I preferred their original effort too!

And I wonder who picked up the phone and ordered them to do that ??.

[Glesgahibby]

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To me this is not an anti Rangers crusade or bloodlust that many are now calling it but as more and more is discovered about what went on then a sense of justice and integrity starts to come into it.

When the truth and pure facts are presented to all things Rangers, the Scottish Footballing bodies and to an extent the media, it's either their reaction, their silence or their lack of reporting that will not make this sorry tale move on.

This is NOT a witch hunt, this NOT some petty point scoring between rival football clubs and fans alike and this is certainly NOT a bloodlust to destroy Rangers. We simply want a fair outcome to what now is transpiring to be one world football's biggest frauds which implicates the very top of our organisation which are trusted in looking after the integrity of our national sport.

This rolling stone has gathered so much pace that this will not go away anytime soon and with the future court cases, the truth will come out and those involved will be punished. They simply have to.

Agree with this.

[southern hibby]

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Nah your're clueless I'm afraid mate, and I need absolutely no lessons from you on how to support my club. I will be at the Morton game this weekend, just as I was at Alloa previously, just as I was standing behind the goals in Dumfries before that. Then there's the three (yes 3) 0-3's at Ibrox that I've had the privilege of attending.

There's also my west stand season ticket. Not forgetting the east stand stone that I recently bought. Or my Hibs TV subscription. My Hibs Lotto subscription might even come up one of these times, although I'm not expecting any return from my HSL payments.

Can you say the same? Good on you if you can.

Indeed I know personally some of the guys with whom I disagree on this particular thread. However, unlike you, I have respect the person even if I disagree with their views. Even you.

I have respected the person I just don't get why a Hibs fan would agressively chase this with other Hibs fans like you do.

As I said if your a Hibsfan ( and I will apologise if you are )then that's fine but maybe if you answered some of the questions on here you were asked. I for one find you very confusing going on about Rangers being punished, they have not been in my eyes.

As far as I'm concerned they went into liquidation as I said that was they're fault not a punishment. They lost their license a new team applied for the license and got it not the old team.
The old Rangers in my eyes need agressively chased through the courts as has happened and punished the fans of both teams have not under any circumstances given any remorse about what their old club did and new club mentality is the same as the old.

Make No Mistake if The old Rangers are not punished they will keep on doing this until they are still bringing Scottish football into disrepute and will end up going back into Scottish football and because they have not been punished ( a £250,000 fine that's never been paid is not a punishment, it's another sign of their contempt) and it will be everyone's fault on here.

As for personally artacking you on here I personally don't think I did I feel
I aggressively put my point of view across that differs from yours but it's ok for you to do that?

So if I offended I will publicly apologise now online ( I sir do apologise for calling you a Rangers fan) even though I said I believe you to be one or a Jambo. Mate I've been a Hibs fan all my life and I go to every game home away the lot but you are the first Hibs fan that has in my knowledge stuck up for them. Also in one of your post back earlier you called Celtic the tims there's not many Hibs fans I know that have called them that in years.

GGTTH

[Hibby Kay-Yay]

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The list of different teams that have won the 2 major cup competitions in the last 5 years for one. I make it 9 different sides have won silverware since 2010. The most competitive 5 year period for many decades no?

Hibs0666 you may have missed this one but I agree with the above. Our game has got far more competitive and no longer is it just the OF dominating. The tragic thing is we've been down here for two seasons not taking advantage of it (bloody butcher!!)

[Kavinho]

As said a few pages back, this feels to me very watergate-esque at this stage.

Some people were happy after the arrests were made following the breakin at the DNC HQ.

A long long time later, after numerous court cases, the scandal took down the top man....



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watergate_scandal

[Brunswickbill]

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As said a few pages back, this feels to me very watergate-esque at this stage.

Some people were happy after the arrests were made following the breakin at the DNC HQ.

A long long time later, after numerous court cases, the scandal took down the top man....



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watergate_scandal

I just wish that a small percentage of the effort that goes into investigating/ discussing the RIPFC debacle would go into looking in depth at the dodgy dealings of our neighbours. Nothing bugs me more than hearing a yam taking the moral high ground on this.

[Kavinho]

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I just wish that a small percentage of the effort that goes into investigating/ discussing the RIPFC debacle would go into looking in depth at the dodgy dealings of our neighbours. Nothing bugs me more than hearing a yam taking the moral high ground on this.

I'll assume that's a generalisation as opposed to any accusation of yammery on my part!!

Agreed though.. My yam mates generally know to keep a bit quiet on this topic with me!

House of cards though... enough digging and the spotlight will eventually shine on the Yams. I'm not giving up hope on that yet!

[Geo_1875]

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I just wish that a small percentage of the effort that goes into investigating/ discussing the RIPFC debacle would go into looking in depth at the dodgy dealings of our neighbours. Nothing bugs me more than hearing a yam taking the moral high ground on this.

Whenever I see a yam looking for the moral high-ground I just laugh or snort disdainfully. I've given up on explaining that the only difference between them is the old Rangers died during the season while hertz lied about their situation to avoid relegation.

[jacomo]

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I'll assume that's a generalisation as opposed to any accusation of yammery on my part!!

Agreed though.. My yam mates generally know to keep a bit quiet on this topic with me!

House of cards though... enough digging and the spotlight will eventually shine on the Yams. I'm not giving up hope on that yet!

This is where whataboutery will come into play.

Keep up the pressure on the died Huns and eventually they will start their 'What about Romanov funnelling player payments through Lithuania? Were they all properly declared to the SPL?'

Will be worrying for the Yams of course... but hey ho.

[Kato]

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That club is dead - how exactly can a club that died get away with it?

Again you say they are dead. More than once you've been corrected on this but seem to willfully ignore the fact that they are not dead, just in liquidation.

[Brunswickbill]

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I'll assume that's a generalisation as opposed to any accusation of yammery on my part!!

Agreed though.. My yam mates generally know to keep a bit quiet on this topic with me!

House of cards though... enough digging and the spotlight will eventually shine on the Yams. I'm not giving up hope on that yet!

A generalisation - no yammery implied.

[hibs0666]

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I have respected the person I just don't get why a Hibs fan would agressively chase this with other Hibs fans like you do.

I've got a different opinion that's all. In my opinion Scottish football needs to focus its efforts on the future not on naval gazing about the past. I hear people saying that we need to get to the bottom of past transgressions to create a better future. However, in my opinion, we already know everything we need to know from this sorry episode.

As I said if your a Hibsfan ( and I will apologise if you are )then that's fine but maybe if you answered some of the questions on here you were asked. I for one find you very confusing going on about Rangers being punished, they have not been in my eyes.

All I can say, once again, is that:

a) the old club is now deid - what more can you do to a corpse?
b) the new club has been fined for the failure to disclose side letters - you might not like the punishment, but there is no point in arguing that there has been no punishment
c) the new club has not played in top-flight football for 4 seasons - same as above

And I don't care about your apology to be honest - you shot from the hip without knowing the first thing about me and that is just rank bad patter.

As far as I'm concerned they went into liquidation as I said that was they're fault not a punishment. They lost their license a new team applied for the license and got it not the old team.
The old Rangers in my eyes need agressively chased through the courts as has happened and punished the fans of both teams have not under any circumstances given any remorse about what their old club did and new club mentality is the same as the old.

What do you want to achieve by chasing old Rangers through the courts - it is already deid! And the characters involved in this sorry saga will have their days in court soon. Again - what more do you want beyond what is already happening?

Make No Mistake if The old Rangers are not punished they will keep on doing this until they are still bringing Scottish football into disrepute and will end up going back into Scottish football and because they have not been punished ( a £250,000 fine that's never been paid is not a punishment, it's another sign of their contempt) and it will be everyone's fault on here.

The old Rangers cannot keep doing anything - it's deid! Going forward is much more important. Unfortunately we would all rather focus on the past rather then focus our energies on making Scottish football better.

As for personally artacking you on here I personally don't think I did I feel
I aggressively put my point of view across that differs from yours but it's ok for you to do that?

So if I offended I will publicly apologise now online ( I sir do apologise for calling you a Rangers fan) even though I said I believe you to be one or a Jambo. Mate I've been a Hibs fan all my life and I go to every game home away the lot but you are the first Hibs fan that has in my knowledge stuck up for them. Also in one of your post back earlier you called Celtic the tims there's not many Hibs fans I know that have called them that in years.

Jeezo I'm not sticking up for that mob and, believe me, there is nothing better than sticking it up them. However, this is now a little historic sideshow when compared to the real problems afflicting our game in the here and now, and that need to be addressed with urgency.

[hibs0666]

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Again you say they are dead. More than once you've been corrected on this but seem to willfully ignore the fact that they are not dead, just in liquidation.

In law and business, liquidation is the process by which a company (or part of a company) is brought to an end, and the assets and property of the company are redistributed. Liquidation is also sometimes referred to as winding-up or dissolution, although dissolution technically refers to the last stage of liquidation.

[CropleyWasGod]

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In law and business, liquidation is the process by which a company (or part of a company) is brought to an end, and the assets and property of the company are redistributed. Liquidation is also sometimes referred to as winding-up or dissolution, although dissolution technically refers to the last stage of liquidation.

I think Kato means that the company who formerly ran the football club are "in liquidation", but not yet liquidated. In other words, that company still exists, and will continue to do so for the time being. They're certainly not "deid".

[hibs0666]

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I think Kato means that the company who formerly ran the football club are "in liquidation", but not yet liquidated. In other words, that company still exists, and will continue to do so for the time being. They're certainly not "deid".

Old Rangers is not trading, nor is it playing football matches. It will never trade again and will never play another football match. It's deid to me.

[southern hibby]

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I've got a different opinion that's all. In my opinion Scottish football needs to focus its efforts on the future not on naval gazing about the past. I hear people saying that we need to get to the bottom of past transgressions to create a better future. However, in my opinion, we already know everything we need to know from this sorry episode.



All I can say, once again, is that:

a) the old club is now deid - what more can you do to a corpse?
b) the new club has been fined for the failure to disclose side letters - you might not like the punishment, but there is no point in arguing that there has been no punishment
c) the new club has not played in top-flight football for 4 seasons - same as above

And I don't care about your apology to be honest - you shot from the hip without knowing the first thing about me and that is just rank bad patter.



What do you want to achieve by chasing old Rangers through the courts - it is already deid! And the characters involved in this sorry saga will have their days in court soon. Again - what more do you want beyond what is already happening?



The old Rangers cannot keep doing anything - it's deid! Going forward is much more important. Unfortunately we would all rather focus on the past rather then focus our energies on making Scottish football better.



Jeezo I'm not sticking up for that mob and, believe me, there is nothing better than sticking it up them. However, this is now a little historic sideshow when compared to the real problems afflicting our game in the here and now, and that need to be addressed with urgency.

You asked what we can do to a died club, we can actively chase it through the SFA so that clarity can be sought to avoid this happening again to Scottish football. Make no mistake as I said The Rangers fans have no distinction between old and new club just that they are the same. This if not addressed will lead to possibly them or other clubs doing the same again.

I agree they have been punished but by not excepting punishment ie payment then as far as I am concerned they have not excepted punishment.
As for shooting from the hip, sorry but if you read my post I left a disclaimer. As I have said it was my opinion just as you are giving your opinion about The Rangers. If you don't want to except my opinion or listen to it that's fine but that means that anyone else does not need to listen to yours either.
I've listened to it and don't agree with it but that's my porogitive as it is with yours to either listen or not.
I opoligised if I offended because no offence was meant however I still am untitled to my opinions and point of views as it is yours to except or not.

GGTTH

[Lucius Apuleius]

My issue with 666's statements is the fact that not only do I want the hun dead, I want their hordes to know it too.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Old Rangers is not trading, nor is it playing football matches. It will never trade again and will never play another football match. It's deid to me.

Are you absolutely certain that the old company will never trade again? Do you know how the issue of the ownership of the assets will play out?

And, at the risk of widening this to yet another "new club/old club" debate, there are those (myself included) who are of the opinion that the club is still alive, both legally and emotionally. However, as I've often said, that debate will almost certainly never be settled.

[hibs0666]

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You asked what we can do to a died club, we can actively chase it through the SFA so that clarity can be sought to avoid this happening again to Scottish football. Make no mistake as I said The Rangers fans have no distinction between old and new club just that they are the same. This if not addressed will lead to possibly them or other clubs doing the same again.

I agree they have been punished but by not excepting punishment ie payment then as far as I am concerned they have not excepted punishment.
As for shooting from the hip, sorry but if you read my post I left a disclaimer. As I have said it was my opinion just as you are giving your opinion about The Rangers. If you don't want to except my opinion or listen to it that's fine but that means that anyone else does not need to listen to yours either.
I've listened to it and don't agree with it but that's my porogitive as it is with yours to either listen or not.
I opoligised if I offended because no offence was meant however I still am untitled to my opinions and point of views as it is yours to except or not.

GGTTH

No bother. We agree to disagree and nothing wrong with that.

[Kato]

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In law and business, liquidation is the process by which a company (or part of a company) is brought to an end, and the assets and property of the company are redistributed. Liquidation is also sometimes referred to as winding-up or dissolution, although dissolution technically refers to the last stage of liquidation.

...a company can also be brought out of liquidation.

[CallumLaidlaw]

I'm really worried about these world class players rangers are looking to bring in in January!!

Rangers have stepped up their interest in Accrington Stanley pair Matt Crooks and Josh Windass

[Kato]

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I'm really worried about these world class players rangers are looking to bring in in January!!

Crooks and Windass - suits them.

[CentreLine]

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Old Rangers is not trading, nor is it playing football matches. It will never trade again and will never play another football match. It's deid to me.

I think you are missing a major point here. This purging of our game can and must go much deeper than whether or not there is a Rangers. The whole management structure of our game has exposed itself to allegations of deep rooted corruption, specifically to favour the advancement of two clubs. By ensuring that all of this comes out in the open we have a fighting chance of creating a level playing field in the game for the first time in yours or my lifetime. Painful though it might be I firmly believe that this is our once in a lifetime opportunity to rid our game of a duopoly spoilling the game for the majority. Healthy honest competition is a spectator sport and an entertainment that has attracted tens of thousands in the past and can again. A business run by a corrupt organisation with self interest at its heart may just have brought our game to the brink of extinction and many still do not see that.

It is what has gone on in the past that is killing our game and whether you intend to or not you appear to be suggesting that we just let it go, suck it up and allow it to carry on as before. Well not for me.

Now if the SFA and SPFL came out and threw their hand up, said that a line was drawn and that they accepted past practice was unacceptable, with assurances that the field would be level going forward, then I think I could move on regardless of whether there was retrospective punishment. Sadly I think we need the present painful process to get us there.

[Kavinho]

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A generalisation - no yammery implied.

[hibs0666]

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I think you are missing a major point here. This purging of our game can and must go much deeper than whether or not there is a Rangers. The whole management structure of our game has exposed itself to allegations of deep rooted corruption, specifically to favour the advancement of two clubs. By ensuring that all of this comes out in the open we have a fighting chance of creating a level playing field in the game for the first time in yours or my lifetime. Painful though it might be I firmly believe that this is our once in a lifetime opportunity to rid our game of a duopoly spoilling the game for the majority. Healthy honest competition is a spectator sport and an entertainment that has attracted tens of thousands in the past and can again. A business run by a corrupt organisation with self interest at its heart may just have brought our game to the brink of extinction and many still do not see that.

It is what has gone on in the past that is killing our game and whether you intend to or not you appear to be suggesting that we just let it go, suck it up and allow it to carry on as before. Well not for me.

Now if the SFA and SPFL came out and threw their hand up, said that a line was drawn and that they accepted past practice was unacceptable, with assurances that the field would be level going forward, then I think I could move on regardless of whether there was retrospective punishment. Sadly I think we need the present painful process to get us there.

I'm suggesting that we already know there are problems, that we absolutely cannot go on as before and we would be far better off spending our time shaping the to-be, rather than undertaking yet more detailed analysis of the as-is.

[Kato]

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I'm suggesting that we already know there are problems, that we absolutely cannot go on as before and we would be far better off spending our time shaping the to-be, rather than undertaking yet more detailed analysis of the as-is.

The detailed analysis is still going through the courts and still be misinterpreted by the media so it's perfectly natural that people will discuss what is actually still ongoing.

[brog]

There's also my west stand season ticket. Not forgetting the east stand stone that I recently bought. Or my Hibs TV subscription. My Hibs Lotto subscription might even come up one of these times, although I'm not expecting any return from my HSL payments.

I've never challenged the fact you're genuine hence my continuing incredulity at your stance. You choose to accept one part of LNS judgement, the £250k ( unpaid ) fine, but not his statement that The Rangers are the same club! You can't really rely on part of his report to support your argument but ignore the major part that doesn't! About 3 pages ( seems like a week ago ) back I said I agreed your points 1 & 2, that was a typo, I meant 2 & 3, ie Sevco must pay the fine now & a proper system of governance must be established. I worked in financial governance for many years & our starting point was almost always a look back at prior failures. That's why the same thing should happen with this sorry saga including a review of the cover-up which was the LNS report. It's not just punishment for The Rangers that I want, I think it's essential that the roles played by people such as Campbell Ogilvie, Regan, Doncaster et al be exposed to proper scrutiny & censure/action if appropriate.
PS, The £250k fine was imposed on The Rangers by LNS for failing to declare side letters to what was at that time deemed to be a legal tax avoidance scheme. ( or rather Oldco were deemed to have been in compliance with the rules of such a scheme, which they clearly were not - the loans were never intended to be repaid ). In light of the current status of EBT's would you accept that punishment for The Rangers could & should have been greater? Mind you, as they continue not to pay the £250k, & how do they get away with that?, it probably doesn't matter. As I said earlier true Armageddon occurs when the rule of law breaks down & that's been pretty much the attitude of The Rangers for the last 3 years.

[CentreLine]

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I'm suggesting that we already know there are problems, that we absolutely cannot go on as before and we would be far better off spending our time shaping the to-be, rather than undertaking yet more detailed analysis of the as-is.

But you're not offering a way to achieve that. Simply putting our head in the sand and saying "well that was all a bit dodgy" then carrying on as before cannot be an option. The beaks have had nothing to say on this and if they say and do nothing then they must be made to do so

[greenginger]

http://www.sportsmole.co.uk/football/fulham/news/report-fulham-target-mark-warburton_260280.html#$$nyqbp3&&TXleTJjrEeWYDxLiLC u6pw$$

I hope they keep stirring it.

[AndyM_1875]

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I'm suggesting that we already know there are problems, that we absolutely cannot go on as before and we would be far better off spending our time shaping the to-be, rather than undertaking yet more detailed analysis of the as-is.

I agree with that. As is known I have absolutely no time for the Phil McGobbledygooks of this world and the other Sellik minded bigots who are trying to sell me their agenda but as a whole I would suggest Scottish football needs rigourous financial controls put in place far more than it needs more thashing of the Rangers panto.

I'd suggest the following could be a start.
1) Each club should aim to break even every year. Clubs which continually post losses year on year without address to point 2 shall be called before the SFA/SPFL where points deductions may apply the next season.

2) Existing bank debts and loansheld by clubs should be actively paid down and progress should be seen year on year in this area. Failure to address points 1 and 2 shall result in automatic relegation.

3) Clubs which do not submit audited accounts and are also in breach or points 1 and 2 shall be automatically relegated to the bottom tier.