Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[Mr White]

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Well you have to form your own opinions on that one. I think that they are wrong, and the original club no longer exists.

Somewhat picking and choosing which bits of LNS report to accept and which to dismiss then? You seem quite happy to accept that he dealt with the side letter issue but ignore that he said they are in essence the same club?

[hibs0666]

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Why would i think that?

Cos you stated that it's still going on.

[Kavinho]

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Once again...

1. the huns died - how much more punishment can be inflicted on a corpse?
2. we need to make sure the new huns pay the fine, plus interest, for breaching the regulations on disclosure of the side letters
3. rather than endless naval gazing, implement a new governance structure that serves to address the myriad issues that has caused our game to become an increasing irrelevance.

Which is why we need to fully understand what has happened, who was responsible, and ensure it can't be repeated

[hibs0666]

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Which is why we need to fully understand what has happened, who was responsible, and ensure it can't be repeated

I think we already understand enough of where the failures of oversight have occurred without the need to waste any more time and effort naval gazing.

[Kaff]

To go back to the point that the game is in 'recovery mode', there was a link put on a thread (I am useless at finding these old threads etc) from the Jambo blogger/podcast fella who is considered good value by most on here where he had the figures that every club in the top 14 (but possibly 16) Scottish clubs except Celtic and Hibs (can't remember if Rangers were included tbh) had been increasing their average attendance in the last few years.
It was not a point scoring Jambo skewed report and his findings on Hibs were reported accurately with reason, it made interesting reading as the fact Scottish football overall attendance may be down due to Old Firm problems but the game as a whole is generally healthy - surely that is more important?

Edit Ozy had put up the link, its not quite how i have related to things but generally shows a healthier picture than is spoken about in the media
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/footba...earn-1-3949710

[CropleyWasGod]

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I think we already understand enough of where the failures of oversight have occurred without the need to waste any more time and effort naval gazing.

You missed my question.

How has the cheating been dealt with already?

[Smartie]

I think the way this debate has gone is sadly typical of the way the whole Rangers issue has progressed in Scotland.

Imo hibs0666 has made some fair and sensible points (and some nonsense that I totally disagree with) but is attempting to come at this from a reasonably balanced point of view. Unfortunately there is no place for perspective and balance when it comes to the Rangers debate. It is black and white, us and them and there is no middle ground. If you attempt to come at this from the middle ground you are quickly driven to one side or the other (see what happened when Alex Thomson and Stan Collymore got involved). Poor hibs0666 comes at this from a sightly different angle and is castigated and called a hun - in this regard we are no better than the Rangers lot.

It would be wrong for Scottish football to spend the next 10 years bickering over title stripping. Whether titles are stripped or not, the past 15 years or so will go down as the most inglorious in Scottish football history as dubious clubs have made a mockery of it. Rangers, Hearts, Dundee, Motherwell, Gretna and many more - many examples of clubs not running themselves, spending money they didn't have and gaining an unfair advantage. Most of the trophies won have been under dubious conditions and are tainted, even if the clubs fight tooth and nail to hang onto them. What value do those trophies really have?

We need to move on. The Rangers mindset makes that impossible so we're stuck and I don't know how we'll progress on that front. The most important thing is finding out the involvement of the Campbell Ogilvies of this world, the deals between Rangers and the SFA and we need to clean up our governing bodies big time. We need to get strict penalties for financial impropriety that will prove an adequate deterrent for clubs of the moral standing of Rangers and Hearts so we can play our football confident that we have a level playing field in future.

We need to bust the myth that Scotland can't survive without a club whose stadium is falling apart at the seams, are never out of court, need £2.5 million to finish the season whilst having 4x the playing budget of their nearest rivals, have fans who are immune to strict laws on sectarian chanting and don't have any concept that anything they have done might have been in any way wrong.

But there needs to be a shift from those who are not fans of Rangers too. The constant bloodlust is not helpful and in many ways legitimises the totally unacceptably inflexible viewpoint that those on the Rangers side choose to take.

[Radium]

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That's the thing - I don't think they have been ignored - the side letters that everyone is getting excited about has already been dealt with, the old huns have been terminated and the new huns have been absent from top-flight football for the four seasons.

I understand the blood lust, but I do not understand the argument that the huns have not been punished. I recognise that the old huns could have been treated more harshly, but I do not understand what is to be gained by kicking it further now that it is a corpse.

The point that is not clear at this moment is, what deals were made in the background by the SFA/ SPL [as it was] to manage the TRFC situation.

I see some of your point, but until we understand why an SFA employee told LNS that the players were properly registered, even though the side letters were not disclosed, I for one will not see the situation re the titles as closed. Personally I would rather see the titles voided and the medals left with the players [because I do not agree with the evidence provided to LNS]

That RFC payed for the arrogance of their board is clear, they were liquidated and allowed re-entry to the league without 3 years of accounts. Not great, but for a club with no debt that can generate 30k season tickets it should have been a blip.

The refusal to pay the LNS fine grates with many people [me included] but the pantomime at TRFC is just a sideshow.

The SFA / SPFL are the guardians of Scottish Football, but they are not public bodies and are not accountable to fans - as Doncaster put it, the SPFL is a trade federation. Look at the simple mistakes they make around scheduling of games - the play-off final is the day after the Scottish Cup final next year [again] - they always put the cash in front of the fans. The SFA can't even organise a cup draw at a time that is relevant to fans [and is only available live on a subscription service]. What we need to know is what have Reagan and Doncaster done to smooth the way back for TRFC.

If t'internet is to be believed, Petrie and Lawell voted against the GASL as a fit and proper person - this will no doubt be disclosed at one of the up and coming sideshows. Both should be congratulated, if true, for making a blindingly obvious decision, but what about the rest?

So to the bloodlust. In a staightforward sense, had TRFC paid their debts and simply got on with using their substantial financial clout [in terms of the Scottish game] to get themselves back towards the top of the game in Scotland there is little that could have been thrown at the new board. That they seem to have been in cohoots with those running the game in Scotland is the bit that gets to me [secret 5-way agreements]. Pernicious is probably the better word for describing the current state of affairs, with little clarity likely till the various court cases and appeals have run their course.

So at the moment I have my metaphorical popcorn on the table and am waiting for the main feature.

Ramble over.

[greenginger]

Richard Wilson discussing the possible departure of Warby.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34980312

" there has been no official contact between Rangers and Fulham ....... Yet ! "

Do you think the BBC lamb muncher could be softening up the hoards for a shock announcement ?

[blackpoolhibs]

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Cos you stated that it's still going on.

The inquest is still going on?????????

[Ozyhibby]

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I think the way this debate has gone is sadly typical of the way the whole Rangers issue has progressed in Scotland.

Imo hibs0666 has made some fair and sensible points (and some nonsense that I totally disagree with) but is attempting to come at this from a reasonably balanced point of view. Unfortunately there is no place for perspective and balance when it comes to the Rangers debate. It is black and white, us and them and there is no middle ground. If you attempt to come at this from the middle ground you are quickly driven to one side or the other (see what happened when Alex Thomson and Stan Collymore got involved). Poor hibs0666 comes at this from a sightly different angle and is castigated and called a hun - in this regard we are no better than the Rangers lot.

It would be wrong for Scottish football to spend the next 10 years bickering over title stripping. Whether titles are stripped or not, the past 15 years or so will go down as the most inglorious in Scottish football history as dubious clubs have made a mockery of it. Rangers, Hearts, Dundee, Motherwell, Gretna and many more - many examples of clubs not running themselves, spending money they didn't have and gaining an unfair advantage. Most of the trophies won have been under dubious conditions and are tainted, even if the clubs fight tooth and nail to hang onto them. What value do those trophies really have?

We need to move on. The Rangers mindset makes that impossible so we're stuck and I don't know how we'll progress on that front. The most important thing is finding out the involvement of the Campbell Ogilvies of this world, the deals between Rangers and the SFA and we need to clean up our governing bodies big time. We need to get strict penalties for financial impropriety that will prove an adequate deterrent for clubs of the moral standing of Rangers and Hearts so we can play our football confident that we have a level playing field in future.

We need to bust the myth that Scotland can't survive without a club whose stadium is falling apart at the seams, are never out of court, need £2.5 million to finish the season whilst having 4x the playing budget of their nearest rivals, have fans who are immune to strict laws on sectarian chanting and don't have any concept that anything they have done might have been in any way wrong.

But there needs to be a shift from those who are not fans of Rangers too. The constant bloodlust is not helpful and in many ways legitimises the totally unacceptably inflexible viewpoint that those on the Rangers side choose to take.

It's not bloodlust. All we ask for is a FULL investigation into the whole sorry saga with all documents made available and all parties involved coming clean.
If that leads to title stripping so be it.
After that is done, then everyone can move on.
While we see one club being given immunity from a full investigation, there is no way the game will ever move on.
The ONLY way for this to end and for people to move on is for the TRUTH to come out and the people involved to be held responsible. None of that can happen until there is a proper transparent investigation into what happened.
Then we will all move on.


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[hibs0666]

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You missed my question.

How has the cheating been dealt with already?

The consequences of the cheating for old hun and new hun are clear by now surely?

[hibs0666]

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It's not bloodlust. All we ask for is a FULL investigation into the whole sorry saga with all documents made available and all parties involved coming clean.
If that leads to title stripping so be it.
After that is done, then everyone can move on.
While we see one club being given immunity from a full investigation, there is no way the game will ever move on.
The ONLY way for this to end and for people to move on is for the TRUTH to come out and the people involved to be held responsible. None of that can happen until there is a proper transparent investigation into what happened.
Then we will all move on.


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A full investigation cannot happen as large parts of the whole sorry saga are now in legal hands, and may remain so for years to come.

Meanwhile our game remains in some mad stasis at a time when radical change its urgently required. Really sad.

[Ronster117]

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It's not bloodlust. All we ask for is a FULL investigation into the whole sorry saga with all documents made available and all parties involved coming clean.
If that leads to title stripping so be it.
After that is done, then everyone can move on.
While we see one club being given immunity from a full investigation, there is no way the game will ever move on.
The ONLY way for this to end and for people to move on is for the TRUTH to come out and the people involved to be held responsible. None of that can happen until there is a proper transparent investigation into what happened.
Then we will all move on.


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This 100%
do we think it will happen...... I doubt it

[jacomo]

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I think the way this debate has gone is sadly typical of the way the whole Rangers issue has progressed in Scotland.

Imo hibs0666 has made some fair and sensible points (and some nonsense that I totally disagree with) but is attempting to come at this from a reasonably balanced point of view. Unfortunately there is no place for perspective and balance when it comes to the Rangers debate. It is black and white, us and them and there is no middle ground. If you attempt to come at this from the middle ground you are quickly driven to one side or the other (see what happened when Alex Thomson and Stan Collymore got involved). Poor hibs0666 comes at this from a sightly different angle and is castigated and called a hun - in this regard we are no better than the Rangers lot.

It would be wrong for Scottish football to spend the next 10 years bickering over title stripping. Whether titles are stripped or not, the past 15 years or so will go down as the most inglorious in Scottish football history as dubious clubs have made a mockery of it. Rangers, Hearts, Dundee, Motherwell, Gretna and many more - many examples of clubs not running themselves, spending money they didn't have and gaining an unfair advantage. Most of the trophies won have been under dubious conditions and are tainted, even if the clubs fight tooth and nail to hang onto them. What value do those trophies really have?

We need to move on. The Rangers mindset makes that impossible so we're stuck and I don't know how we'll progress on that front. The most important thing is finding out the involvement of the Campbell Ogilvies of this world, the deals between Rangers and the SFA and we need to clean up our governing bodies big time. We need to get strict penalties for financial impropriety that will prove an adequate deterrent for clubs of the moral standing of Rangers and Hearts so we can play our football confident that we have a level playing field in future.

We need to bust the myth that Scotland can't survive without a club whose stadium is falling apart at the seams, are never out of court, need £2.5 million to finish the season whilst having 4x the playing budget of their nearest rivals, have fans who are immune to strict laws on sectarian chanting and don't have any concept that anything they have done might have been in any way wrong.

But there needs to be a shift from those who are not fans of Rangers too. The constant bloodlust is not helpful and in many ways legitimises the totally unacceptably inflexible viewpoint that those on the Rangers side choose to take.

Dammit you make some good points.

But IMO reform of Scottish football has barely started. Given half a chance, the SFA and SPFL will slip back into the old ways of favouring the big boys while handing out draconian punishments to smaller clubs for the slightest transgression.

League reconstruction, football pyramid, facilities, youth set-ups, the National side, etc... so much work to do and it's barely started. Making changes is impossible if the two biggest clubs have an effective veto on every decision.

This is why it's important. We need to know - be absolutely sure - that the authorities will run the game for the benefit of everybody and investigate allegations of wrong doing without fear or favour.

If the Old Firm rise to dominate again in a fair and transparent set up, so be it. At least we will know it is a level(ish) playing field.

We are a long way from that point - in fact, earlier this year, the SFA approved Dave King as fit and proper to run a football club... Does that sound like lessons have been learned?

That is why the investigations must continue, because we are not out of the woods yet. We must know the rules are applied fairly. If that logic leads to titles being stripped, then so be it.

I can think of only 2 good reasons why - if Rangers are found to have gained an unfair advantage by deliberately concealing required documents from the League - they should not have titles removed:

1. Celtc fans will become insufferable.
2. The whataboutery might last for a decade.

But Celtc fans already are, and on the 2nd point, Hearts will squirm lest some dirty secrets are found in their closet. So all good

[Hibs Class]

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Rangers were liquidated. How many more just desserts do you want?

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The consequences of the cheating for old hun and new hun are clear by now surely?

That's not really an answer is it, it's just (not) answering a question with another question.

I don't think the cheating has been dealt with. If there was cheating in place when titles were won then those titles were tainted, but that has yet to be dealt with.

If the old Huns died (and became the corpse you referred to) then there would be no ambiguity re the old club and its history having a line drawn under it. Yet new huns still perpetuate the myth that their history is unbroken.

So, to repeat the question, in what way do you believe that the cheating has already been dealt with?

[southern hibby]

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Ho ho.

Right mate Rangers were liquidated by their own Directors who couldn't afford to run the club any longer.

I Want Justice for the cheating that was done over the years that the EBT's were being handed out to players that YOUR TEAM could not afford to pay unless by deceit and illegal means.
My Team Hibs was done out of payments for placement where they came in the league because YOUR TEAM Rangers was fielding illegal players.why was it illegal because the payments were not logged with the SFA.
Without being cheeky or offensive run along to The Rangers fanzine and spout yer bile there.
Disclaimer if your not a The Rangers fan, a Jambo then apologies for calling you one, but as God is my judge I really think you are

GGTTH

[Jim44]

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Richard Wilson discussing the possible departure of Warby.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34980312

" there has been no official contact between Rangers and Fulham ....... Yet ! "

Do you think the BBC lamb muncher could be softening up the hoards for a shock announcement ?

I don't think there's really much chance of a shock announcement but I'm surprised that Warburton hasn't quashed the rumours by saying he is catagorically staying with Sevco for the forseeable future. Maybe he is sticking to his 'respect' fixation and is waiting for a concrete move by Fulham before telling them to stuff it.

[matty_f]

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Right mate Rangers were liquidated by their own Directors who couldn't afford to run the club any longer.

I Want Justice for the cheating that was done over the years that the EBT's were being handed out to players that YOUR TEAM could not afford to pay unless by deceit and illegal means.
My Team Hibs was done out of payments for placement where they came in the league because YOUR TEAM Rangers was fielding illegal players.why was it illegal because the payments were not logged with the SFA.
Without being cheeky or offensive run along to The Rangers fanzine and spout yer bile there.
Disclaimer if your not a The Rangers fan, a Jambo then apologies for calling you one, but as God is my judge I really think you are

GGTTH

HIS TEAM is Hibs.

[hibs0666]

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Right mate Rangers were liquidated by their own Directors who couldn't afford to run the club any longer.

I Want Justice for the cheating that was done over the years that the EBT's were being handed out to players that YOUR TEAM could not afford to pay unless by deceit and illegal means.
My Team Hibs was done out of payments for placement where they came in the league because YOUR TEAM Rangers was fielding illegal players.why was it illegal because the payments were not logged with the SFA.
Without being cheeky or offensive run along to The Rangers fanzine and spout yer bile there.
Disclaimer if your not a The Rangers fan, a Jambo then apologies for calling you one, but as God is my judge I really think you are

GGTTH

Nah your're clueless I'm afraid mate, and I need absolutely no lessons from you on how to support my club. I will be at the Morton game this weekend, just as I was at Alloa previously, just as I was standing behind the goals in Dumfries before that. Then there's the three (yes 3) 0-3's at Ibrox that I've had the privilege of attending.

There's also my west stand season ticket. Not forgetting the east stand stone that I recently bought. Or my Hibs TV subscription. My Hibs Lotto subscription might even come up one of these times, although I'm not expecting any return from my HSL payments.

Can you say the same? Good on you if you can.

Indeed I know personally some of the guys with whom I disagree on this particular thread. However, unlike you, I have respect the person even if I disagree with their views. Even you.

[hibs0666]

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HIS TEAM is Hibs.

Scuse me, I can fight my own corner ya bam.

I may be wrong but I think that you, me, Jack and Stewart Crowther were the only four Hibbys one Tuesday afternoon at Barrowfield when you were filiming a reseve game against the tims. Or maybe I was a double agent and was spying for the huns.

[matty_f]

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Scuse me, I can fight my own corner ya bam.

I may be wrong but I think that you, me, Jack and Stewart Crowther were the only four Hibbys one Tuesday afternoon at Barrowfield when you were filiming a reseve game against the tims. Or maybe I was a double agent and was spying for the huns.

I don't think that was me unless it was an under 19's game!

[hibs0666]

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I don't think that was me unless it was an under 19's game!

It might well have been actually now that you mention it - must have been the league and cup double season.

[matty_f]

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It might well have been actually now that you mention it - must have been the league and cup double season.

would have been.

[jgl07]

Anyway it appears that bits of Ibrox are falling off as those in the Lower Sandy Jardine Stand had to be moved to the Broomiloan.

Apparently bits of the stadium were swinging above the supporters.

What happens if they have the added expense of changing a lightbulb?

[Libby Hibby]

To me this is not an anti Rangers crusade or bloodlust that many are now calling it but as more and more is discovered about what went on then a sense of justice and integrity starts to come into it.

When the truth and pure facts are presented to all things Rangers, the Scottish Footballing bodies and to an extent the media, it's either their reaction, their silence or their lack of reporting that will not make this sorry tale move on.

This is NOT a witch hunt, this NOT some petty point scoring between rival football clubs and fans alike and this is certainly NOT a bloodlust to destroy Rangers. We simply want a fair outcome to what now is transpiring to be one world football's biggest frauds which implicates the very top of our organisation which are trusted in looking after the integrity of our national sport.

This rolling stone has gathered so much pace that this will not go away anytime soon and with the future court cases, the truth will come out and those involved will be punished. They simply have to.

[Hibby70]

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It might well have been actually now that you mention it - must have been the league and cup double season.

Glory hunter.

[Keith_M]

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Rangers were liquidated. How many more just desserts do you want?

An investigation into past wrongdoings by people currently in power. An enforcement of the rules in a fair and even manner, applied equally to all clubs, large or small.

All to send out a message that future shenanigans of this lknd will not be tolerated.


Is that really a problem?

[Glesgahibby]

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Nah your're clueless I'm afraid mate, and I need absolutely no lessons from you on how to support my club. I will be at the Morton game this weekend, just as I was at Alloa previously, just as I was standing behind the goals in Dumfries before that. Then there's the three (yes 3) 0-3's at Ibrox that I've had the privilege of attending.

There's also my west stand season ticket. Not forgetting the east stand stone that I recently bought. Or my Hibs TV subscription. My Hibs Lotto subscription might even come up one of these times, although I'm not expecting any return from my HSL payments.

Can you say the same? Good on you if you can.

Indeed I know personally some of the guys with whom I disagree on this particular thread. However, unlike you, I have respect the person even if I disagree with their views. Even you.

Fit and proper test passed
are you the guy that used to sit in the old main stand with the rattle,singing"Hibernian,Hibernian ra,ra,ra"

[Just Alf]

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Once again...

1. the huns died - how much more punishment can be inflicted on a corpse?
2. we need to make sure the new huns pay the fine, plus interest, for breaching the regulations on disclosure of the side letters
3. rather than endless naval gazing, implement a new governance structure that serves to address the myriad issues that has caused our game to become an increasing irrelevance.

none of them think they have, so they obviously don't think they've been punished for it themselves? = ineffective punishment!

On your last point, that is EXACTLY what we need! However, to do it we need to resolve all those pesky outstanding issues (so do the required navel gazing quicker! )