Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[JeMeSouviens]

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Again, what punishment have they received to date?

I think these are the penalties accumulated due to the Old Huns' cheating:

- 10 pt penalty for entering admin
- £160K fines in total for how they ended up in admin
- 12 month registration ban
- £250K fine for EBT registration dodginess

Of those, the 160K and 12 month signing ban were taken on by the New Huns in exchange for being allowed to transfer the SFA membership of the Old Huns (the infamous 5 way agreement). Of course, the SFA then rolled over and bent their own rules by shifting the signing ban until after the transfer window.

The SPL share of the Old Huns wasn't transferred (note, this was not a punishment) but the New Huns were fast tracked into the SFL.

The £250K fine is disputed by the New Huns (nowt to do with us, we're just the same club ).

[Dan Sarf]

... and anyway, they're not having it. Hope that is clear?


“It is our irrevocable belief that this club’s history, including its many successes, is beyond debate. Rangers cannot countenance or accept any talk, attempts or actions designed to undermine what this club has achieved throughout its long history."

[ballengeich]

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I would doubt it.

It would be in character for them to take things to Court but, IIRC, the SFA rules forbid that as well.

I think the rules state that the Court of Arbitration for Sport should be the appeal body before the law is brought in.

However, they've ignored that rule once before and weren't punished for it. It was a disgrace that when they went to Court and overturned their transfer embargo the SFA tribunal never reconvened to suspend or expel them.

[Ozyhibby]

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/20105317

http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/h...r-three-years/

Not a single penny of this tax was paid.
HMRC ruled the scheme illegal just like they have done with Rangers use of EBT's.
Most Rangers fans are too stupid to do the research though.


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[Treadstone]

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http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/20105317

http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/h...r-three-years/

Not a single penny of this tax was paid.
HMRC ruled the scheme illegal just like they have done with Rangers use of EBT's.
Most Rangers fans are too stupid to do the research though.

Not just Rangers fans. Doesn't fit the narrative of "The Clumpany" so they just disregard.

[Hibs Class]

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... and anyway, they're not having it. Hope that is clear?


“It is our irrevocable belief that this club’s history, including its many successes, is beyond debate. Rangers cannot countenance or accept any talk, attempts or actions designed to undermine what this club has achieved throughout its long history."

A level of certainty reminiscent of the founding members of the Flat Earth Society.

[GreenOnions]

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BBC Bluenose correspondent Richard Wilson with the "we've been punished enough" line. Starts getting tasty quarter of an hour in.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p037m4h7

Interesting. I think one issue that wasn't covered is that relating to what was the ultimate purpose behind the use of EBTs.

They established the fact that EBTs themselves are not illegal and that the way Rangers used them was. There was then chat about the fact that it may not be considered to be cheating if, at the time the schemes were set up, Rangers believed there actions to be within the law. The argument was made that this is different from, say, doping in athletics where those involved are fully aware that they are operating outside the rules to improve their performance.

I think a more important point - and one that HMRC are allowed to take into account - is what was the ultimate purpose behind the scheme. If the ultimate purpose was essentially to avoid the payment of taxes it is not deemed to be a legitimate business transaction. In the eyes of HMRC ignorance is not a valid defence either. This principle was in place long before RFC used EBTs and professional advisers would be expected to have known this.

The appeal established that use of the EBTs by RFC gained them a sporting advantage which, by definition, penalises other competitors.

IF RFC engaged in transactions - the main purpose of which was to avoid paying tax - what would be their motivation for doing that? I can't see how it can be claimed that it was anything other than to gain an advantage over their competitors by facilitating the employment of better players than they would otherwise have been possible.

[Ozyhibby]

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Not just Rangers fans. Doesn't fit the narrative of "The Clumpany" so they just disregard.

Of course. If you post this on Scottish Football Monitor etc they totally ignore. They are only interested in hammering Rangers or Sevco.
If we want this taken up it will have to be Rangers fans hoping that it saves them.


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[greenginger]

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Of course. If you post this on Scottish Football Monitor etc they totally ignore. They are only interested in hammering Rangers or Sevco.
If we want this taken up it will have to be Rangers fans hoping that it saves them.


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Or feed the Sevco press the facts on Hearts tax cheating.

Gavin Barry in the Daily Record mentioned the yams tax bill but according to him it was just overspending and running out of money.

I'm sure they will start highlighting the Hearts tax business if we give them the info.

[JeMeSouviens]

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http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/20105317

http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/h...r-three-years/

Not a single penny of this tax was paid.
HMRC ruled the scheme illegal just like they have done with Rangers use of EBT's.
Most Rangers fans are too stupid to do the research though.


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p in £ CVA must have paid a tiny proportion?

[Ozyhibby]

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p in £ CVA must have paid a tiny proportion?

As will the liquidation of old Rangers.


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[greenginger]

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p in £ CVA must have paid a tiny proportion?

Not a cent went to HMRC. Ukio Bankas as secured creditor got the lot.

[Glesgahibby]

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BBC Bluenose correspondent Richard Wilson with the "we've been punished enough" line. Starts getting tasty quarter of an hour in.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p037m4h7

Sporting integratey,cheating,unfair advantage,breaking the law and punished enough.
All of the above statements are clouding the real issue and creating debate that is not necessary.
1)players wages declared with the SFA were false.
2)these players(acording to SFA rules)then become ineligible.
3)SFA rules state,if a player is ineligible then the game played in is awarded to the opposing team 3-0.
As it stands at the moment,the courts have declared that EBT loans were earnings,so none of the above points I have made are indispute.
no investigations,no meetings and no voting.
apply the rules,end of!!!!

[greenginger]

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Sporting integratey,cheating,unfair advantage,breaking the law and punished enough.
All of the above statements are clouding the real issue and creating debate that is not necessary.
1)players wages declared with the SFA were false.
2)these players(acording to SFA rules)then become ineligible.
3)SFA rules state,if a player is ineligible then the game played in is awarded to the opposing team 3-0.
As it stands at the moment,the courts have declared that EBT loans were earnings,so none of the above points I have made are indisputable.
no investigations,no meetings and no voting.
apply the rules,end of!!!!

Similarly with Rudi Skacel. His registered contract was for 190,000 Euro/year ( about £ 3000/week probably one of the lowest in the Yam squad )

His agent claimed his 10 % fee on wage of 290,000 Euro/year.

[jacomo]

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I think these are the penalties accumulated due to the Old Huns' cheating:

- 10 pt penalty for entering admin
- £160K fines in total for how they ended up in admin
- 12 month registration ban
- £250K fine for EBT registration dodginess

Of those, the 160K and 12 month signing ban were taken on by the New Huns in exchange for being allowed to transfer the SFA membership of the Old Huns (the infamous 5 way agreement). Of course, the SFA then rolled over and bent their own rules by shifting the signing ban until after the transfer window.

The SPL share of the Old Huns wasn't transferred (note, this was not a punishment) but the New Huns were fast tracked into the SFL.

The £250K fine is disputed by the New Huns (nowt to do with us, we're just the same club ).

Thanks for summary. The Rangers will presumably argue that £250k fine covers everything related to EBTs.

The rest is all about the club going bust, and nothing to do with EBTs.

So, as they haven't paid the £250k fine, and it is now common sense that they gained an unfair sporting advantage through the EBTs, now it is time for a punishment to be enforced. The precedent had been set.

[lapsedhibee]

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Sporting integratey,cheating,unfair advantage,breaking the law and punished enough.
All of the above statements are clouding the real issue and creating debate that is not necessary.
1)players wages declared with the SFA were false.
2)these players(acording to SFA rules)then become ineligible.
3)SFA rules state,if a player is ineligible then the game played in is awarded to the opposing team 3-0.
As it stands at the moment,the courts have declared that EBT loans were earnings,so none of the above points I have made are indisputable.
no investigations,no meetings and no voting.
apply the rules,end of!!!!

That's completely wrong.
All of the above points you have made are indisputable.

[Glesgahibby]

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Similarly with Rudi Skacel. His registered contract was for 190,000 Euro/year ( about £ 3000/week probably one of the lowest in the Yam squad )

His agent claimed his 10 % fee on wage of 290,000 Euro/year.

Good point GG
the problem is,someone has to complain to the SFA(with written factual proof)sounds like a job for Sergey
the Rangers case differs because the proof is highlited every day this debate continues.
As I have said before,the SFA has to protect itself against legal action from basically anyone who feels they were financially disadvantaged.

[Glesgahibby]

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That's completely wrong.
All of the above points you have made are indisputable.

just noticed that
cheers!!

[southsider]

So want punishment do people want our club to tell the SFA to impose on the rangers for "improper conduct" ? I would suggest void all titles/cups won and a 10 year European ban. Thoughts ?

[jacomo]

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So want punishment do people want our club to tell the SFA to impose on the rangers for "improper conduct" ? I would suggest void all titles/cups won and a 10 year European ban. Thoughts ?

Sure. Plus a points deduction, say, 20 points. Just because.

EDIT: Seeing as The Rangers are refusing to countenance any stripping of their titles, how about a points deduction for every season they cheated through EBTs? This should be meaningful, so probably more than 20 points, this season and every season for the next decade, regardless of which division they are in?

[Deansy]

Sadly, imho, all this talk of the Hun being punished, titles\trophies stripped etc, etc is just that - talk !!, As we all KNOW - the GFA will NOT do anything !!. Like the last time, there was no appetite\bottle from them or the chairmen of the SPL clubs to properly punish the Hun UNTIL it was made clear to them by US - the fans - that if they didn't, the game was f××××d !!

What's needed now is a repeat, for all of the fans to get together once again, and demand that the Hun are properly punished for cheating !!. If we don't, then once again, the Hun walk away laughing !.

[Jack]

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So want punishment do people want our club to tell the SFA to impose on the rangers for "improper conduct" ? I would suggest void all titles/cups won and a 10 year European ban. Thoughts ?

With regard to the league they should follow the precedent they set with Livingston with a fine and points deduction. They could go the whole hog and use the international precedents where ineligible players, as that is what the EBT players have become, are played the results are amended to a 3 nil defeat. They should also be fined the difference of what they received, in terms of prize money, and what they should have received with the revised league placing.

With regard to cup competitions they should follow the precedents set in numerous cases where the offending club has been thrown out. Again they should be fined all prize money received.

There should also be an additional fine, or percentage added to these fines, for punitive damages.

The players can keep their medals, the club would lose its honours.

A ban from future cups in Scotland and European competition should also be considered for a similar period to their cheating seems appropriate.

[steakbake]

Not seen anything that indicates the SFA are moving on this at all - which is unsurprising as the guy at the top is the same one who was in the room when the tax/sport cheating plan was put into place.

Ogilvie has to go.

Wonder what the HFC official position is on this?

Have to say that Clumpany was bang on: oh for a Turnbull Hutton character to step forward and represent the views publicly of the many fans who have seen the last 10+ years as a charade of a competition. Somehow, I feel the blazers will close ranks and the calls for action will be left for people on the internet, whose view of this will be written off as them having an agenda or simply that they're obsessed.

[PatHead]

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With regard to the league they should follow the precedent they set with Livingston with a fine and points deduction. They could go the whole hog and use the international precedents where ineligible players, as that is what the EBT players have become, are played the results are amended to a 3 nil defeat. They should also be fined the difference of what they received, in terms of prize money, and what they should have received with the revised league placing.

With regard to cup competitions they should follow the precedents set in numerous cases where the offending club has been thrown out. Again they should be fined all prize money received.

There should also be an additional fine, or percentage added to these fines, for punitive damages.

The players can keep their medals, the club would lose its honours.

A ban from future cups in Scotland and European competition should also be considered for a similar period to their cheating seems appropriate.

Big difference was that Livingston brought their transgressions to the attention of the SPFL and were dealt with leniently because of this.

Shut them down for not paying footballing debts in the form of the fine as had been agreed. Sod this deduct points and fines malarkey.

Also don't see what The Rangers are getting upset about as it wasn't them - it was the old, deceased club that are affected.

[Ozyhibby]

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Not seen anything that indicates the SFA are moving on this at all - which is unsurprising as the guy at the top is the same one who was in the room when the tax/sport cheating plan was put into place.

Ogilvie has to go.

Wonder what the HFC official position is on this?

Have to say that Clumpany was bang on: oh for a Turnbull Hutton character to step forward and represent the views publicly of the many fans who have seen the last 10+ years as a charade of a competition. Somehow, I feel the blazers will close ranks and the calls for action will be left for people on the internet, whose view of this will be written off as them having an agenda or simply that they're obsessed.

Ogilvie has gone.


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[MrSmith]

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Ogilvie has gone.


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Yip as of the 9th June, replaced by Alan McRae of Cove Rangers. Our own RP reelected as Vice-President.

wonder why CO left so quietly??? Hmmm impending Sevco doom? I'll bet he knew what was coming and did one ............ >>>>>>>>>>>>>

[JeMeSouviens]

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Not a cent went to HMRC. Ukio Bankas as secured creditor got the lot.

****, course they did. I've gone rusty on the details of Yam dodginess.

[steakbake]

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Yip as of the 9th June, replaced by Alan McRae of Cove Rangers. Our own RP reelected as Vice-President.

wonder why CO left so quietly??? Hmmm impending Sevco doom? I'll bet he knew what was coming and did one ............ >>>>>>>>>>>>>

He left very quietly! Had no idea.

Still wonder what Hibs' position is on the saga and what might happen once the SFA start their no doubt robust and forensic evaluation of the situation.

[Smartie]

I'm quite chilled out about the stripping of titles. I don't really see what is to be gained by going back in time and taking them away.

All of the titles gained during that period are tainted in my eyes, so every boast a Rangers fan makes, ever, about the numbers of titles they have won or how many stars they have on their shirts will forever be tainted.

It didn't need to be this way for them. They could have volunteered to hand back their dodgy titles. That would have left them with the sizeable number of trophies they had won previously and then all of the ones they will win in future completely unquestionable. And investigations could be made into the trophies won by other clubs that the whataboutery loving Rangers fans - correctly - point out should also be scrapped.

The past 16 years or so will go down as one of the most shameful in Scottish football history. We haven't qualified for a major international competition and a large number of our domestic trophies have been affected by financial doping whilst our limp authorities dithered about what to do about them.

I agree with aspects of the Rangers statement yesterday. The worst thing for Scottish football to do now would be to bicker for the next 5 years about what titles should be taken away, and we SHOULD all move on. But there was not a shred of remorse in that statement and for that reason we cannot move on. There is nothing remorseful or even remotely self-aware about a club 5 points clear at the top of the league and with 4x the wage budget of their nearest challengers that needs £2.5 million extra external funding to finish the season.

Rangers remain the biggest problem in Scottish football and probably always will be.

[Ozyhibby]

And Sevco remain skint. Still no sign of over investment.


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