Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[jacomo]

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Drug doping or financial doping are both cheating in my book.

I don't disagree. What I am saying is the punishment should be meaningful.

No one remembers or cares who legitimately 'won' those races, once the cheaters were stripped if their titles, but Johnson and Armstrong can't now trade on their reputations as champions in retirement. An effective punishment.

The Rangers have no shame so stripping them of past titles will have no effect. It will not discourage their fan base either - except for a tiny minority who value sporting integrity over tribal loyalty. But a fine and points deduction or demotion now would be an effective punishment.

[emerald green]

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And is there any real difference between Rangers and their EBT cheating and our neighbours at Tynecastle and their tax scams.

Gaining an unfair advantage is cheating, whichever way you look at it IMHO.

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Stripping any club of past titles is a bit pointless I think. The fans of that club will still believe they won them, and fans of runners up or beaten finalists won't suddenly be celebrating an extra cup.

FWIW I don't think the clubs who ended up as runners up, or their fans, would actually want them. What fans want is an even playing field, and for justice to be seen to be done. The record books could be noted that those titles and/or cups were withdrawn, albeit retrospectively.

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That's not what the Court of Session said. EBT's were not illegal at the time. What did breach the tax laws was Rangers cack handed attempt to use them to top up salaries and that's what the judges focused on. Most EBT usage in other corporate environments has used shares rather than cash.

This precedent if not appealed (unlikely) will allow HMRC to go after many of the big English Premiership & former Premiership clubs.

My understanding is that The Scottish Premier League (SPL), the SPFL's fore-runner, asked Lord Nimmo-Smith to investigate the use of EBTs by Rangers and whether they breached league rules two years ago.

He ruled the use of "side letters" to players & staff detailing the EBT payments did break league regulations and fined the oldco £250,000 as well as ordering it to pay £150,000 in costs. The Ibrox newco are challenging attempts to force them to pay the fine.

However, at the time of Lord Nimmo-Smith's ruling, EBT payments were not considered to be taxable earnings, a matter which led Nimmo-Smith to rule that Rangers had not received a sporting advantage by making tax-free payments...

Now that the Court of Session has ruled that the payments should have been taxed, the eight man SPFL board are under pressure to look again at Nimmo-Smith's report.

[AndyM_1875]

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Or the players would have signed for clubs in England and Rangers would have had to do with signings of a level Celtic could afford.
Rangers could afford Stefan Klos in goals while Celtic made do with Rab Douglas.
Celtic had a deal agreed with Nacho Novo and Rangers came in at the last minute and out bid them by offering him a tax free package.
Trying to claim this made no difference is ridiculous.


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Sorry but I enjoy being a Devils Advocate and your point is supposition and doesn't prove a thing. It wouldn't stand up in court and I'd expect Rangers lawyers if challenged on this to ram that point home.

[grunt]

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Gaining an unfair advantage is cheating, whichever way you look at it IMHO.

FWIW I don't think the clubs who ended up as runners up, or their fans, would actually want them. What fans want is an even playing field, and for justice to be seen to be done. The record books could be noted that those titles and/or cups were withdrawn, albeit retrospectively.

My understanding is that The Scottish Premier League (SPL), the SPFL's fore-runner, asked Lord Nimmo-Smith to investigate the use of EBTs by Rangers and whether they breached league rules two years ago. He ruled the use of "side letters" to players & staff detailing the EBT payments did break league regulations and fined the oldco £250,000 as well as ordering it to pay £150,000 in costs. The Ibrox newco are challenging attempts to force them to pay the fine. However, at the time of Lord Nimmo-Smith's ruling, EBT payments were not considered to be taxable earnings, a matter which led Nimmo-Smith to rule that Rangers had not received a sporting advantage by making tax-free payments... Now that the Court of Session has ruled that the payments should have been taxed, the eight man SPFL board are under pressure to look again at Nimmo-Smith's report.

Three very clear points, well written.

[emerald green]

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Three very clear points, well written.

[Ozyhibby]

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Sorry but I enjoy being a Devils Advocate and your point is supposition and doesn't prove a thing. It wouldn't stand up in court and I'd expect Rangers lawyers if challenged on this to ram that point home.

So you don't think a 40% boost to your player budget through not paying tax would not help a team perform better?


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[AndyM_1875]

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So you don't think a 40% boost to your player budget through not paying tax would not help a team perform better?


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A figure of 40% assumes the entire player remuneration was in the form of an EBT. It wasn't.
Players received a salary that was taxed and the EBT was a tax avoidance top up.
As I've stated earlier most working EBTs in other businesses operated in the form of shares rather than cash which is one of the reasons Rangers use of them was flawed

[s.a.m]

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A figure of 40% assumes the entire player remuneration was in the form of an EBT. It wasn't.
Players received a salary that was taxed and the EBT was a tax avoidance top up.
As I've stated earlier most working EBTs in other businesses operated in the form of shares rather than cash which is one of the reasons Rangers use of them was flawed

Whichever way the wages break down, Rangers saved between 45 and 50 million pounds by not collecting PAYE / NI on wages through the EBT scheme. That's a substantial bonus.
Most 'unfair advantage' strategies will not guarantee success, because there will always be factors you can't control, whether you're using money you shouldn't have or drugs or whatever other form of jiggery-pokery to achieve it. We can't know what the outcome would have been if Rangers had not breached SFA rules about player registration, or spent money on staff that they should have been handing over to Hector - and it doesn't matter. Sports organisations and athletes do it because it improves their chances, and that's why there are rules and sanctions.

[Onion]

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I'm not convinced these players would ever have come to Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen etc. Their basic salaries even without the top up were way beyond what any of us were paying even during our big spending days.
Without the tax avoidance wheeze it would have been lumped in to the clubs debt.

You're missing the point. Put it another way, how would you feel if Edinburgh Council paid 40+% of hearts wages for them ?

[stokesmessiah]

We all know that nothing will happen. Right?

[Glesgahibby]

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You're missing the point. Put it another way, how would you feel if Edinburgh Council paid 40+% of hearts wages for them ?

Or Lithuanian savers,Herriot watt and so on

[MrSmith]

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We all know that nothing will happen. Right?

That's the most disappointing thing! We do all know cos no one will do anything!!

[EdinMike]

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We all know that nothing will happen. Right?

*clap clap* Move along, people. Nothing is happening.

[Nakedmanoncrack]

However many trophies they won unfairly doesn't really matter, that club can never win any more honours, so it's not worth getting excited about tbh.

[Bostonhibby]

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You're missing the point. Put it another way, how would you feel if Edinburgh Council paid 40+% of hearts wages for them ?

Or chipped in a couple of hundred thousand subsidy towards their costs by not bothering to pursue council tax and giving them a free car park

[Cropley10]

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HMRC appear to be more interested in chasing down bigger fish than Rangers. All this ruling is, is a precedent that allows that course of action. I read that they'll get an estimated 5p in the pound from the liquidators of Oldco.

A word of advice would be not to jump the gun as many, including our wee fat chum at Scotzine, have done and assume that this is all final. There may well be a further appeal to a higher court from the Murray Group.

The Murray Group are in Liquidation aren't they? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-30805669

Difficult to see how a liquidated company, never mind there being limited scope for sn appeal anyway, is going to be allowed or able to do this.

What do you base your view on?

[Ozyhibby]

The words of David Murray


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[Cropley10]

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However many trophies they won unfairly doesn't really matter, that club can never win any more honours, so it's not worth getting excited about tbh.

Except that IF they win the Premiership, then they will add that to the 54 and no-one will correct them!

[CropleyWasGod]

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The Murray Group are in Liquidation aren't they? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-30805669

Difficult to see how a liquidated company, never mind there being limited scope for sn appeal anyway, is going to be allowed or able to do this.

What do you base your view on?

I can't see that they would. Given that the liquidator is acting on behalf of all creditors, not just the non-HMRC ones, it's difficult to see what they could achieve by appealing. At best, a "win" might get their legal fees repaid into the creditors pot. At worst, they could find themselves down by more.

In a way, it's a shame that the case isn't allowed to go the "whole way" (ie to the Supreme Court, Lords etc), as it's actually very important. That it might not do so, out of a lack of funds, IMO doesn't satisfy natural justice.

[Cropley10]

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The words of David Murray


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Its pretty obtuse to argue that if Rangers could put more net cash in a players banks than another Club, then Rnagers haven't signed better players than they would otherwise have been able to do, no?

[ScottB]

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I'd strip them of all trophies won during the period of the illegal payments and simply leave the winner as "void" rather than award it to the runner up. That would highlight for future generations the price of cheating and unlike the asterisks idea would deny their fans any opportunity to claim those titles.

They'd still claim them, case in point, Juventus still claim to have won the titles they were stripped of for match fixing.

Of course that's not a reason not to strip them of things they won while cheating, but you'll never get the club or the fans to sing that tune.

[JeMeSouviens]

Whether they got an advantage or not (they obv did) every result they achieved with ebt side lettered players should have been wiped. They weren't properly registered. If it's good enough to throw wee teams out of cups because their paperwork isn't right then it should apply to all. The Hun saga has been round after round of our authorities bottling it and failing to apply the rules.

The only time they didn't bottle it from the Huns was because they were bottling it from every other teams' fans!

[brog]

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And is there any real difference between Rangers and their EBT cheating and our neighbours at Tynecastle and their tax scams.

IIRC the first involved Vlad getting players to sign for Kaunas F C and then loaning them to Hearts. Their wages paid tax free in Lithuania although the players were playing in the UK. Eventually just before a tax tribunal began in 2012 Hearts agreed to pay £ 1.5 million back tax, but of course went bust before they paid anything.

Then there was Vlad's private deal with Rudi Skacel. Half his wages paid and taxed here and the other half sent from Lith to his Czech bank account. All detailed at Edinburgh sheriff Court thanks to his tiff with his agent.

Gavin Berry in DR today actually makes much the same point. He specifically mentions that in 2012 Yams outbid St M for Craig Beattie's services then Beattie scored against St M as well of course as the pen in the semi. 2 cheeks of the same erchie!

[AndyM_1875]

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The Murray Group are in Liquidation aren't they? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-30805669

Difficult to see how a liquidated company, never mind there being limited scope for sn appeal anyway, is going to be allowed or able to do this.

What do you base your view on?

Some of Murrays companies are in liquidation. Others are doing very nicely indeed.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/bu...-david-6630601

[Nakedmanoncrack]

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Except that IF they win the Premiership, then they will add that to the 54 and no-one will correct them!

Exactly, and that's the bigger issue which is being ignored under this smokescreen.

[Cropley10]

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Some of Murrays companies are in liquidation. Others are doing very nicely indeed.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/bu...-david-6630601

So, these Companies, that are not part of the liquidated Murray Group Holdings, can now become involved in an Appeal to the Supreme Court?

Sorry, I'm confused...

[magpie1892]

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Except that IF they win the Premiership, then they will add that to the 54 and no-one will correct them!

Other than every single fan of every single club, forever. They'll never shake it off. Whenever they win a major trophy, most people will start counting at one...

[Greenworld]

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So, these Companies, that are not part of the liquidated Murray Group Holdings, can now become involved in an Appeal to the Supreme Court?

Sorry, I'm confused...

No murray has countless businesses all seperate entities...they cannot be chased for money

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[Keith_M]

Finally, someone at the Daily Record has broken ranks and criticised David Murray.

I never thought I'd see the day.


Although he's arguing against the stripping of titles (which I disagree with) he does actually say...

"Meanwhile ‘Sir’ David - a title which SHOULD be stripped - carries on regardless and remorseless."

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/opinion...s-away-6789757

[Onion]

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Whether they got an advantage or not (they obv did) every result they achieved with ebt side lettered players should have been wiped. They weren't properly registered. If it's good enough to throw wee teams out of cups because their paperwork isn't right then it should apply to all. The Hun saga has been round after round of our authorities bottling it and failing to apply the rules.

The only time they didn't bottle it from the Huns was because they were bottling it from every other teams' fans!

Can you imagine the situation where Hibs or Dundee (out of nowhere) won a string of trophies including the League, Scottish Cups and League Cups which were subsequently deemed to be illegally funded by tax payers ? Forget about any investigations or debate, those trophies would be written off the record books without a second thought. And rightly so, as they make a mockery of those competitions and devalue the trophies won legitimately by others. It is doping, plain and simple.

The single reason this has not happened is that it is Rangers.