Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[ballengeich]

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The share money he is talking about is the loans from the 3 bears. Not sure what year that was though.


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I think it predates the share involvement of the 3 bears and King and their loans. There was a rights issue while Ashley, Laxey and the Easedale group still controlled over 50% of the shares and I think it refers to that. I can't remember the exact date of this.

[CropleyWasGod]

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I don't think finances are his speciality.

Clearly not.

He does, though, seem to have (or thinks he has) an insight into "something". What that is, we can't know. However, it feels to me as if he has taken a little knowledge of that something, and built a lot of assumptions around it.

One of those being that VAT is 25%

[greenginger]

If anything is going to kill the Rangers , it will be cash flow as they have no credit facilities.

it can't just be assumed they have £ 8 million plus for seasons as they have a monthly payments plan, so their spending pot will be reduced by an amount that is anybody's guess.

Walk ups, and commercial can be estimated but I can't see it lasting after November if, they are paying all their bills as they fall due !

now where have we heard that phrase before.

[CropleyWasGod]

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If anything is going to kill the Rangers , it will be cash flow as they have no credit facilities.

it can't just be assumed they have £ 8 million plus for seasons as they have a monthly payments plan, so their spending pot will be reduced by an amount that is anybody's guess.

Walk ups, and commercial can be estimated but I can't see it lasting after November if, they are paying all their bills as they fall due !

now where have we heard that phrase before.

The longer they manage to hold it together this season, the more likely they are to get some short - term funding to allow them to make it to the end.....or at least until next season's ST'S go on sale.

In the interim, I hope that HMRC are being vigilant :)

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[ScottB]

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The longer they manage to hold it together this season, the more likely they are to get some short - term funding to allow them to make it to the end.....or at least until next season's ST'S go on sale.

In the interim, I hope that HMRC are being vigilant :)

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Won't they have to be paying such things on a monthly basis because of their 'history' rather than the usual quarterly?

One would hope they wouldn't be given much rope before hanging them anyway!

[CropleyWasGod]

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Won't they have to be paying such things on a monthly basis because of their 'history' rather than the usual quarterly?

One would hope they wouldn't be given much rope before hanging them anyway!

It's normal for HMRC to demand monthly payments if the company has a bad past record, or if the people involved have a bad record elsewhere. Problem in this case is that it's a new company, with a new cast of characters.
Not sure if they could justify such a demand in this case.

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[Col2]

How funny would it be if they managed to keep winning, strengthen in January for 'tilt at Premiership title next season', extend lead to 15 points and then in say late March had an insolvency event... And a 25 point penalty and we go 10 points clear with only 6 or 7 games to go!!!!!

[CropleyWasGod]

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How funny would it be if they managed to keep winning, strengthen in January for 'tilt at Premiership title next season', extend lead to 15 points and then in say late March had an insolvency event... And a 25 point penalty and we go 10 points clear with only 6 or 7 games to go!!!!!

Hilarious :)

But, if they get as far as March they'll make it to the end of the season.

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[Col2]

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Hilarious :)

But, if they get as far as March they'll make it to the end of the season.

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Good point. Season ticket advance sales and all that.... Ok November or just before Xmas and I am happy

[Ozyhibby]

Is it not this week they are in court with Charles Green about paying his legal bills? That could change the game very quickly as they just don't have the money for that.


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[AndyM_1875]

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Not commenting on the Rangers case, but HMRC dines out on tenuous claims. Unlike a legal court with an HMRC charge there is no presumption of innocence. You are guilty until you prove otherwise. As most people have neither the means or sophistication to fight this over the long term HRMC coins it in tenuous claims.

Very true.

Meanwhile stuff like this goes unchecked for years....

[CropleyWasGod]

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Is it not this week they are in court with Charles Green about paying his legal bills? That could change the game very quickly as they just don't have the money for that.


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You might be right about the timing. However, I don't expect that it will be a game-changer yet.

The likeliest scenario will be that the Court will adjourn the case to allow the club to get their defence together. However, if CG's lawyers are smart, they will ask the Court to order that a certain amount of money be set aside, just in case the club runs out of money. (like wot Imran did....).

That latter scenario would be nice.

[Jim44]

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It's normal for HMRC to demand monthly payments if the company has a bad past record, or if the people involved have a bad record elsewhere. Problem in this case is that it's a new company, with a new cast of characters.
Not sure if they could justify such a demand in this case.

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Even when HMRC know that they are dealing with a convicted tax dodging criminal?

[PatHead]

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You might be right about the timing. However, I don't expect that it will be a game-changer yet.

The likeliest scenario will be that the Court will adjourn the case to allow the club to get their defence together. However, if CG's lawyers are smart, they will ask the Court to order that a certain amount of money be set aside, just in case the club runs out of money. (like wot Imran did....).

That latter scenario would be nice.

Thing is I doubt Cheery Charlie will be willing to come to a settlement like others have. He will want them to stick to the contract and pay in full.

[PatHead]

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Even when HMRC know that they are dealing with a convicted tax dodging criminal?

Who has been called a glib and shameless liar in a court of law.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Even when HMRC know that they are dealing with a convicted tax dodging criminal?

He wasn't involved when the company was set up, and became VAT registered. That's the point at which HMRC normally make the "monthly" demand.

If RFC have been on time with their Returns and payments thus far, HMRC will take no action. However, if there have been lapses, they might then decide to have another look at things. King's history might then become an issue.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Thing is I doubt Cheery Charlie will be willing to come to a settlement like others have. He will want them to stick to the contract and pay in full.

I'm not suggesting that there will be a settlement. What I'm suggesting is that £x might be set aside in an independent account, ring-fenced.

[Ozyhibby]

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You might be right about the timing. However, I don't expect that it will be a game-changer yet.

The likeliest scenario will be that the Court will adjourn the case to allow the club to get their defence together. However, if CG's lawyers are smart, they will ask the Court to order that a certain amount of money be set aside, just in case the club runs out of money. (like wot Imran did....).

That latter scenario would be nice.

I'm not sure how the legal process work but surely they can't adjourn too long as Charlie is due in court before the end of the month for their preliminary hearings. Surely he needs to know who is paying for his defence before that? Would they hold up the whole case while one defendant sorts out his legal fees?


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[Ozyhibby]

https://johnjamessite.wordpress.com/...e-cash-crisis/


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[CropleyWasGod]

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https://johnjamessite.wordpress.com/...e-cash-crisis/


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Strangely, a post querying his misunderstanding of VAT has been deleted.

[CropleyWasGod]

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I'm not sure how the legal process work but surely they can't adjourn too long as Charlie is due in court before the end of the month for their preliminary hearings. Surely he needs to know who is paying for his defence before that? Would they hold up the whole case while one defendant sorts out his legal fees?


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I think buying time is a favourite game played by defences.

In any event, like you say, it's only a preliminary hearing. It will be months before it gets anywhere near the meaty bits.

[brog]

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https://johnjamessite.wordpress.com/...e-cash-crisis/


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If even some of that is correct then it's really bad news, I mean of course great news for us. Sevco are a dream, has any one institution ever had such a succession of shysters in charge? The gift that keeps on giving!

[greenginger]

Phil Mac has a new piece to his blog entitled King has a Plan. Sorry can't post a copy.

basically says King is flying in to tell the People if they want their club saved they will have to dig deep themselves.

it sort of worked for the Liths with the puddle drinkers at the PBS, raised over a million, so who knows.

[Smartie]

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If even some of that is correct then it's really bad news, I mean of course great news for us. Sevco are a dream, has any one institution ever had such a succession of shysters in charge? The gift that keeps on giving!

Is it really good for us though?

I have a feeling that they'll weasel their way through this season by fair means or foul (let's face it - it's going to be foul).

This season is big for us as we're up against them directly. But surely it won't be that difficult for them to squeeze through another few months and start selling season tickets for the premier league at inflated prices in January or so, with them 20 points or so clear at the top of the league?

I reckon that they have another day of reckoning coming. But by then they'll be back in the top league, filling the away ends at Killie and Hearts and the fact that they'll have horsed us this season using money that they didn't have will be conveniently forgotten (as tends to happen with this kind of thing in Scotland).

[southsider]

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Is it really good for us though?

I have a feeling that they'll weasel their way through this season by fair means or foul (let's face it - it's going to be foul).

This season is big for us as we're up against them directly. But surely it won't be that difficult for them to squeeze through another few months and start selling season tickets for the premier league at inflated prices in January or so, with them 20 points or so clear at the top of the league?

I reckon that they have another day of reckoning coming. But by then they'll be back in the top league, filling the away ends at Killie and Hearts and the fact that they'll have horsed us this season using money that they didn't have will be conveniently forgotten (as tends to happen with this kind of thing in Scotland).

They have not horsed us this season except an understreangth Hibs side in some diddy cup. The league game was a tight affair with our new signing still settling in. 3 league games left and I expect a minimum of 7 points.

[Smartie]

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They have not horsed us this season except an understreangth Hibs side in some diddy cup. The league game was a tight affair with our new signing still settling in. 3 league games left and I expect a minimum of 7 points.

Fair point, except I don't see them dropping many points over the course of the season and I still see us dropping silly points via being unable to break down defensive teams over the course of this season.

The cumulative effect of that is a horsing over the course of a season.

[CropleyWasGod]

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If even some of that is correct then it's really bad news, I mean of course great news for us. Sevco are a dream, has any one institution ever had such a succession of shysters in charge? The gift that keeps on giving!

I agree.

However, his manner in dealing with dissent, or even reasonable questioning, is p'ing me off. There seems to be no shades of blue with the guy.

[matty_f]

Obviously I'm speaking without the benefit of a crystal ball, but I would be amazed if The Rangers had anything even remotely like an insolvency event this season, or any season going forward, and no amount of ramblings from clearly biased bloggers will change my mind on that.

If we want to win the league, we'll have to do it the usual way- get more points than the rest of the league. There's zero chance (IMHO) of us benefiting from a points deduction to The Rangers.

[Ozyhibby]

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Obviously I'm speaking without the benefit of a crystal ball, but I would be amazed if The Rangers had anything even remotely like an insolvency event this season, or any season going forward, and no amount of ramblings from clearly biased bloggers will change my mind on that.

If we want to win the league, we'll have to do it the usual way- get more points than the rest of the league. There's zero chance (IMHO) of us benefiting from a points deduction to The Rangers.

I agree that it seems unlikely because we can't see who benefits but it is still possible. They need money put in before the end of the season and whoever puts it in is unlikely to see it again. Something will have to give soon.


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[CropleyWasGod]

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I agree that it seems unlikely because we can't see who benefits but it is still possible. They need money put in before the end of the season and whoever puts it in is unlikely to see it again. Something will have to give soon.


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Not sure what you mean by this.

I'd reckon than 95% of administrations happen because there is no other option. It's not about who "benefits."