Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[portycabbage]

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Would it not depend on whether anything is secured on Ibrox? If there is no security against it, then the largest unsecured creditor would be in the best position to control it?

From a sevco statement last year (which of course may be untrue!)-

"The board has stated that it has no intention of granting security over Ibrox to anybody. We have already shown in our actions - and not words - that our stadium is sacrosanct."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/27298234

[CropleyWasGod]

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From a sevco statement last year (which of course may be untrue!)-

"The board has stated that it has no intention of granting security over Ibrox to anybody. We have already shown in our actions - and not words - that our stadium is sacrosanct."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/27298234

That actually chimes with one thing Phil McG said in his latest blog.... that the Board "can't" grant security over Ibrox.

However, does that mean they "won't" or that they actually can't, because it's charged to someone else on the fly?

Or am I getting like Paranoid Phil?

[greenginger]

http://news.stv.tv/west-central/3064...r-liquidation/


Looks like ( Sir ) David Murray has hit the buffers.

Discount him from coming to Sevco's rescue.

[portycabbage]

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That actually chimes with one thing Phil McG said in his latest blog.... that the Board "can't" grant security over Ibrox.

However, does that mean they "won't" or that they actually can't, because it's charged to someone else on the fly?

Or am I getting like Paranoid Phil?

Actually, I think that was what reminded me of the statement last year. It could mean something dodgy I suppose, but it could just mean they've pinky-promised not to. Surely they wouldn't break a promise?

[AndyM_1875]

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http://news.stv.tv/west-central/3064...r-liquidation/


Looks like ( Sir ) David Murray has hit the buffers.

Discount him from coming to Sevco's rescue.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/end-of-an-era-as-murray-closes-illustrious-charlotte-square-hq.25482419


This article from last October offers a few clues to Sir David Murray's recent business issues.
CWG would need to interpret the threads but I doubt Mr Murray is remotely finished in the business world.

Lots of the companies originally owned by the now closed MIH are still trading independently under the ownership of the Murray Family.

[cabbageandribs1875]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-30805669


His business empire has run into conflict with its pensioners over a lack of funds to fulfil their expected pensions. It has been reported that there is a £22m shortfall in the pension fund, and pensioners will have to take reduced pay-outs as a result.


******* buzzard that he is

[Ozyhibby]

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-30805669


His business empire has run into conflict with its pensioners over a lack of funds to fulfil their expected pensions. It has been reported that there is a £22m shortfall in the pension fund, and pensioners will have to take reduced pay-outs as a result.


******* buzzard that he is

Meanwhile a lot of assets from his companies were transferred to his family trust.
He's no better than Robert Maxwell.

[AndyM_1875]

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-30805669


His business empire has run into conflict with its pensioners over a lack of funds to fulfil their expected pensions. It has been reported that there is a £22m shortfall in the pension fund, and pensioners will have to take reduced pay-outs as a result.


******* buzzard that he is

Indeed and a discussion this morning with a Glaswegian business chum (who also happens to be a bluenose) of mine alludes to that.

"Murray's a ****. But one that knows how to play the game. He's about to do what can only be called a rubbish dump. He's scooped out all the good stuff from his business empire (MIH) and transferred it away into his family basically leaving MIH as a shell with all the debt to get wound up. He leaves nothing but a trail of debt behind him and he's screwed Lloyds/Bank of Scotland good & proper.

You'd be a fool to write him off but I'd never ever do business with him. He's one of the most unethical people I have ever come into contact with."

[greenginger]

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Meanwhile a lot of assets from his companies were transferred to his family trust.
He's no better than Robert Maxwell.

Hope he can't swim any better either !

[ACLeith]

And this is the man that was "duped" by Whyte? Yeah, right!

[AndyM_1875]

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And this is the man that was "duped" by Whyte? Yeah, right!

Duped? Yeah right indeed.
His hand was forced by Lloyds to dump Rangers. Mind you he appears to have had the last laugh on Lloyds having burned them for the best part of £300m +

[brog]

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That actually chimes with one thing Phil McG said in his latest blog.... that the Board "can't" grant security over Ibrox.

However, does that mean they "won't" or that they actually can't, because it's charged to someone else on the fly?

Or am I getting like Paranoid Phil?

There were 3 consecutive statements in P McG's piece ( only 3 you say! ) which made no sense to me. The part which really puzzled me was the apparent wish by the largest unsecured creditor that anyone else giving a loan, ie becoming a creditor, should have security over their loan. Surely that would just push the unsecured creditors further down the pecking order? Finally, & again I may be completely wrong here but does being the largest unsecured creditor not really count for the square root of hee haw, other than possibly voting on a CVA or insolvency event! If the creditors, and (assuming all are unsecured/equal status ), = say £10m & the largest is £5m, in the event of a 20p in the £ payout then surely the largest would only get £1m, not the whole £2m which is being distributed?

[greenginger]

There is an article in Private Eye, City Column, all about Craig Whyte, Law Financial, Worthington Group, Liberty Capital and all the various shady names that have been cropping up over the Rangers saga.

One sentence caught my attention.

"Law Financial maintains it holds investments worth £ 10 million which would seem to be a legal claim to Rangers " Newco " assets . "

Can't post a copy, can't understand all the inter-connections, but its fun to read !

[CropleyWasGod]

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There is an article in Private Eye, City Column, all about Craig Whyte, Law Financial, Worthington Group, Liberty Capital and all the various shady names that have been cropping up over the Rangers saga.

One sentence caught my attention.

"Law Financial maintains it holds investments worth £ 10 million which would seem to be a legal claim to Rangers " Newco " assets . "

Can't post a copy, can't understand all the inter-connections, but its fun to read !

Who are Law Financial? If I can get out of my Tax Return hell, I might do some digging.

[Billy Whizz]

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Who are Law Financial? If I can get out of my Tax Return hell, I might do some digging.

Craigie Whyte is/was a director

[AndyM_1875]

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Who are Law Financial? If I can get out of my Tax Return hell, I might do some digging.

This lot?

http://companycheck.co.uk/company/08440073

Interesting
http://news.stv.tv/west-central/2218...-over-rangers/

[jacomo]

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Meanwhile a lot of assets from his companies were transferred to his family trust.
He's no better than Robert Maxwell.

Feathers his own nest, while the workers whose labour made him rich get shafted. What a charming individual.

[Liberal Hibby]

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Craigie Whyte is/was a director

Was - resigned in August.

Sole director listed by company check is Douglas Ware

They say he "holds 14 appointments at 13 active companies, has resigned from 9 companies and held 22 appointments at 21 dissolved companies. Douglas began their first appointment at the age of 39. Their longest current appointment spans 23 years and 10 months at THE PERRYS MANAGEMENT COMPANY LIMITED. The combined cash at bank value for all businesses where Douglas holds a current appointment equals £90,053, with a combined total current assets value of £3,987,196 and total current liabilities of £1,231,935. Roles associated with Douglas Ware within the recorded businesses include: Director, Company Secretary

Read more at: http://companycheck.co.uk/director/901360317

22 appointments at 21 dissolved companies - that's some successful business record...

[Andy74]

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Was - resigned in August.

Sole director listed by company check is Douglas Ware

They say he "holds 14 appointments at 13 active companies, has resigned from 9 companies and held 22 appointments at 21 dissolved companies. Douglas began their first appointment at the age of 39. Their longest current appointment spans 23 years and 10 months at THE PERRYS MANAGEMENT COMPANY LIMITED. The combined cash at bank value for all businesses where Douglas holds a current appointment equals £90,053, with a combined total current assets value of £3,987,196 and total current liabilities of £1,231,935. Roles associated with Douglas Ware within the recorded businesses include: Director, Company Secretary

Read more at: http://companycheck.co.uk/director/901360317

22 appointments at 21 dissolved companies - that's some successful business record...

Companies are dissolved for all sorts of reasons - including just not being needed any more.

[wills]

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http://news.stv.tv/west-central/3064...r-liquidation/


Looks like ( Sir ) David Murray has hit the buffers.

Discount him from coming to Sevco's rescue.

Just read this piece from news stv, maybe someone with better knowledge than myself can answer the question regarding the big tax case and EBTs, why there has not been any mention of any attempts to recover the loan payments

HMRC’s argument revolved around the use of employee benefit trusts which were used by the companies, including the Rangers oldco, which they alleged were used as emoluments to employees. Murray successfully argued they were loans which remain recoverable.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Just read this piece from news stv, maybe someone with better knowledge than myself can answer the question regarding the big tax case and EBTs, why there has not been any mention of any attempts to recover the loan payments

HMRC’s argument revolved around the use of employee benefit trusts which were used by the companies, including the Rangers oldco, which they alleged were used as emoluments to employees. Murray successfully argued they were loans which remain recoverable.

The theory is that, in each case (and there is a separate Trust for each player/employee) the loan will be repaid out of that person's estate when they die, or when the Trust is wound up.

I had a "discussion" with a client on this very point recently. All they could see was the tax saving, but without any consideration for their estate, and the effects it might have on their successors.

[AndyM_1875]

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Just read this piece from news stv, maybe someone with better knowledge than myself can answer the question regarding the big tax case and EBTs, why there has not been any mention of any attempts to recover the loan payments

HMRC’s argument revolved around the use of employee benefit trusts which were used by the companies, including the Rangers oldco, which they alleged were used as emoluments to employees. Murray successfully argued they were loans which remain recoverable.

There has been no attempt to recover because HMRC have so far not established any sort of legal precedent having failed at both First Tier Tax Tribunal and Upper Tier Tribunal.
EBTs whilst morally questionable were legal at the time and used by a number of companies. HMRC's gripe is in how the Murray Group companies applied them.

But they are not the reason for the liquidation of Murray's companies. That has much more to do with the level of indebtedness these companies were run into by Murray. This was mainly due an overly familiar and unhealthy relationship with the Bank of Scotland where his main man was Gavin Masterton who himself ran Dunfermline into the wall. After the financial crash Lloyds put an end to that.
What DM is doing now is disposing of them having moved or transferred all the profit making parts of his empire to his family.

http://www.scotsman.com/business/ret...irms-1-3660075

[CropleyWasGod]

More good news:-

Rangers statement: "Further to the announcement on 17 December 2014, Rangers Football Club Limited (the "club") lost the appeal with the Judicial Panel of the Scottish FA on 13 January 2015 in respect of the EBT Commission fine of £250,000 levied on RFC 2012 PLC (previously The Rangers Football Club plc) (in liquidation). The club will now take the matter to arbitration."

[Moulin Yarns]

Football debt?

[wills]

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The theory is that, in each case (and there is a separate Trust for each player/employee) the loan will be repaid out of that person's estate when they die, or when the Trust is wound up.I had a "discussion" with a client on this very point recently. All they could see was the tax saving, but without any consideration for their estate, and the effects it might have on their successors.

Thanks for this, that's why I'm not an accountant

[wills]

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There has been no attempt to recover because HMRC have so far not established any sort of legal precedent having failed at both First Tier Tax Tribunal and Upper Tier Tribunal.
EBTs whilst morally questionable were legal at the time and used by a number of companies. HMRC's gripe is in how the Murray Group companies applied them.

But they are not the reason for the liquidation of Murray's companies. That has much more to do with the level of indebtedness these companies were run into by Murray. This was mainly due an overly familiar and unhealthy relationship with the Bank of Scotland where his main man was Gavin Masterton who himself ran Dunfermline into the wall. After the financial crash Lloyds put an end to that.
What DM is doing now is disposing of them having moved or transferred all the profit making parts of his empire to his family.

http://www.scotsman.com/business/ret...irms-1-3660075

Thanks for this. I was just thinking if all the loans had been made under EBTs why could these loans not be called in to pay of some debts, CWG put me right.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Thanks for this. I was just thinking if all the loans had been made under EBTs why could these loans not be called in to pay of some debts, CWG put me right.

Another point, just to clarify.

It wasn't Rangers that made the loans. They made contributions to the Trusts. It was the Trusts that made the loans.

[cabbageandribs1875]

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Meanwhile a lot of assets from his companies were transferred to his family trust.
He's no better than Robert Maxwell.

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Indeed and a discussion this morning with a Glaswegian business chum (who also happens to be a bluenose) of mine alludes to that.

"Murray's a ****. But one that knows how to play the game. He's about to do what can only be called a rubbish dump. He's scooped out all the good stuff from his business empire (MIH) and transferred it away into his family basically leaving MIH as a shell with all the debt to get wound up. He leaves nothing but a trail of debt behind him and he's screwed Lloyds/Bank of Scotland good & proper.

You'd be a fool to write him off but I'd never ever do business with him. He's one of the most unethical people I have ever come into contact with."

and he has a knighhood as well...pffftt

[Weststandwanab]

It looks like Security over Ibrox has been granted !

[bingo70]

What's the significance of Ashley having security over ibrox?

What's the worst case scenario for them now?